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Anzac Day

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Good morning

Feeling contemplative after having attended a small ceremony in regional Vic yesterday.

With all the pros and cons, ups and downs, rivalries and politicking that goes on relentlessly I would like to reflect on how and why we are here. Nearly 100 years and aside from the usual media 15 minutes of fame stuff many are forgetting what it's all about. E.g. Rugby.

So on this special day let's enjoy the footy and the fun but also - Lest we Forget
 
allrighty said:
Good morning

Feeling contemplative after having attended a small ceremony in regional Vic yesterday.

With all the pros and cons, ups and downs, rivalries and politicking that goes on relentlessly I would like to reflect on how and why we are here. Nearly 100 years and aside from the usual media 15 minutes of fame stuff many are forgetting what it's all about. E.g. Rugby.

So on this special day let's enjoy the footy and the fun but also - Lest we Forget
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Lest we forget what?

The First World War was a despicable war about European powers and Japan seeking profits, none of them had a clean nose. Australia entered the war to help Mother England as we considered ourselves "British to the bootstraps". Even though Turkey did nothing to us we participated in an invasion of their country, an invasion badly planned and badly executed, as a result thousands of British, Irish, French, Australians and New Zealanders died for no good reason and no positive outcome. The Turks can at least claim they defended their nation against an unprovoked attack, I can understand why they might commemorate such an anniversary. My Great Uncle lies buried in France, killed in 1917, as my Uncle says "He died as cannon fodder for the British", from the point of view of Australia now it was a useless death.

There are just wars and unjust wars, for example, it was just for Australia to defend itself against Japan in the 1940's. To commemorate the memory of soldiers who fought in an unjust war is to belittle those soldiers and civilians who suffered as a result of political decisions to prosecute such unjust wars. The Germans do not celebrate an ANZAC day type of festival where all German soldiers who died in all wars are commemorated as brave soldiers who defended their country, we know and they know that is simply not true. My father and his two brothers fought in WWII against Nazi Germany and Japan and I am proud of them and consider that a fight worth killing and dying for.

Those families who wish to remember their loved ones slain on battlefields long ago or recently I have the utmost respect for, but I consider a national day to remember all soldiers in all wars to be mark of militaristic jingoism that does not have its equal in any other country in the world, as far as I am aware.

I am sincerely sorry to have dragged out the political content in your post and I do not want to turn this forum into a political debate, I hope my comments do not offend and are intended to present another side to the debate. I for one, will be celebrating ANZAC day watching the Bomber v Pies and shouting "Go Chappie" although hard to care who wins.
 

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They went with songs to the battle, they were young.
Straight of limb, true of eye, steady and aglow.
They were staunch to the end against odds uncounted,
They fell with their faces to the foe.

They shall grow not old, as we that are left grow old:
Age shall not weary them, nor the years condemn.
At the going down of the sun and in the morning,
We will remember them.

They mingle not with their laughing comrades again;
They sit no more at familiar tables of home;
They have no lot in our labour of the day-time;
They sleep beyond England's foam

For the Fallen by Laurence Binyon (1869-1943)
 
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In Flanders fields the poppies blow
Between the crosses, row on row,
That mark our place: and in the sky
The larks, still bravely singing, fly
Scarce heard amid the guns below.

We are the Dead. Short days ago
We lived, felt dawn, saw sunset glow,
Loved and were loved, and now we lie
In Flanders fields.

Take up our quarrel with the foe:
To you from failing hands we throw
The torch; be yours to hold it high.
If ye break faith with us who die
We shall not sleep, though poppies grow
In Flanders fields.

John McCrae (1872–1918)
 
Without trying to get into a historical argument about the varying "values" of wars steady2, what you put there appears reasonably self-serving on the face of it.
Using today's (or even the 1940's) understanding of where Australia stood in the world to give cause or not to go to war in 1914 to me just doesn't stack up. I'd prefer it if you kept your opinion of why my grandfather went to war to yourself today (& probably going forward).


Stand up & fight like Hell!!
 
GeneticCat said:
Without trying to get into a historical argument about the varying "values" of wars steady2, what you put there appears reasonably self-serving on the face of it.
Using today's (or even the 1940's) understanding of where Australia stood in the world to give cause or not to go to war in 1914 to me just doesn't stack up. I'd prefer it if you kept your opinion of why my grandfather went to war to yourself today (& probably going forward).
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I'm guessing if any of us were around in August 1914 we would have happily trotted down the recruitment office just like everyone else did. With a huge smile on our faces looking forward to a big adventure. And with no idea what awaited them. Just like the soldiers of England, France, Germany, Russia and here did.
 
GeneticCat said:
Without trying to get into a historical argument about the varying "values" of wars steady2, what you put there appears reasonably self-serving on the face of it.
Using today's (or even the 1940's) understanding of where Australia stood in the world to give cause or not to go to war in 1914 to me just doesn't stack up. I'd prefer it if you kept your opinion of why my grandfather went to war to yourself today (& probably going forward).

Stand up & fight like Hell!!
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Using today's understanding is extremely relevant since Gallipolli and before (Boer war, China (1900) Australian soldiers have predominately been fighting in other people's wars invariably for the wrong side and for the wrong reason, just like the first world war. Your post suggests I should politically suppress my right to free speech and since when did your grandfather become more important than my great-uncle? I respect your opinion and your right to express it.

Stand up and fight who? This weekend I reckon its Port Adelaide.
 
Partridge said:
I'm guessing if any of us were around in August 1914 we would have happily trotted down the recruitment office just like everyone else did. With a huge smile on our faces looking forward to a big adventure. And with no idea what awaited them. Just like the soldiers of England, France, Germany, Russia and here did.
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You are partly correct. However there are a few points which should be noted. Firstly, Indigenous Australians were not considered citizens at that time, consequently those few who did serve in the armed forces did so as "Honorary Whites" this is something that those who promote the values of that time remain hush about. Secondly, thousands of young men refused to join up, particularly those of Irish heritage, they were persecuted by the government and the media of the time, many of them sent feathers in the mail to their homes implying they were 'chicken'. Les Darcy the Australian boxer was willing to sign up, but having a young family with little money he tried to earn as much as he could before going to his potential death at the front. Eventually due to persecution he left Australia for the US. Thirdly, in hopefully more enlightened times we can look back and say 'this was wrong', as we do with many acts performed by our forefathers. Yes, many of us would probably have joined up and at that time most of us (whites) would have considered Indigenous Australians as inferior, that does not mean we should excuse such views and repeat that behaviour.
 
"I do not want to turn this forum into a political debate"... Unless you're the only one making the statements?


Stand up & fight like Hell!!
 
Geez steady.
You can read all the books you want on the politics of war.
Today is not about politics.

It's about remembering those who have fallen.
I was in the army and I can tell you that no one there gives a shit about the reasons we do anything.

They only care about respecting those they are protecting, those they are with, and those that went before them.

You are welcome to free speech, but how about pulling your head in on this subject for this day?
 
vinum coupe said:
Geez steady.
You can read all the books you want on the politics of war.
Today is not about politics.

It's about remembering those who have fallen.
I was in the army and I can tell you that no one there gives a shit about the reasons we do anything.

They only care about respecting those they are protecting, those they are with, and those that went before them.

You are welcome to free speech, but how about pulling your head in on this subject for this day?
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Said it better than myself and with less filtered swear words.
 

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As for a footy day, I am well and truly over the Essendon vs Collingwood game. Boring, same , same , same crap every year.

Just like Carlton vs Richmond at the start of the season and pies vs dees on queens birthday, same same same every year.
 
 
vinum coupe said:
Geez steady.
You can read all the books you want on the politics of war.
Today is not about politics.

It's about remembering those who have fallen.
I was in the army and I can tell you that no one there gives a shit about the reasons we do anything.

They only care about respecting those they are protecting, those they are with, and those that went before them.

You are welcome to free speech, but how about pulling your head in on this subject for this day?
Click to expand...
ANZAC Day is political. Wars are about politics, politicians make war, they send young men and women to fight and kill and die. As Clausewitz said "War is politics though other means".

I did not start this thread, but I have every right to express my opinion and you are entitled to express yours. But you are the second to demand that I shut up. In other words I should not express a contrary opinion. Not going to happen, but really, I would rather talk about the footy.
 
I don't think anyone has said you're not entitled to your opinion steady. For me though it feels like someone who goes along to a wedding and wants to tell everyone about the funeral they went to last year. Yes your point is valid but why can't you let it go now that we've all read it? If you generally don't wish those grieving or remembering loved ones ill-will you'd know when it was time to pull stumps.


Stand up & fight like Hell!!
 

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I don't think it's just about those who served in the big wars - sure it started off that way, but I think it has more modern standards. It's a day to thank and remember the people who protect our country. I always think of my uncle on this day. He's served in several peace keeping missions in the Pacific and served in Afghanistan. I'll probably keep on remembering him and thanking him for his service to our great country until I die. Sure, most of us have had other relatives who served and probably died, and I thank and honour them for their sacrifice, but I'm always going to think of my brave uncle on this day.
 
Personally , I think Anzac day and Wars right or wrong are two different things. Otherwize we bring prostest about rape and who knows what into it.

War is a political act but mostly the people who go to war and the emotions that go along with that are not political. Those are our kin who served our country, sure all did so with there own mindset of their time, pre WW1 and Anzac cove we were mentally just a bunch of mis-located poms. Post Gallipoli were became Australians Was it Jefferson that talked about the Liberty Tree and blood etc , a rather rebellious inciful quote when you read it , but I do believe that our country was was dramatically shapped and to some degree born at that time.

Men and women that have departed our shore for those of other lands , have done so because they were asked to by our country. Its their sacrifice that we remember today , not the rights and wrong of the political instigation of the conflict. If we did focus on that then ..How those in Turkey see it I'm not sure. Us going there to pay homage.. to what from their perspective must be very different thing. Im not sure. Perhaps they too focus on the sacrifice and the bravery of service rather than the machinations that created the conflict
 
Turbocat said:
Men and women that have departed our shore for those of other lands , have done so because they were asked to by our country. Its their sacrifice that we remember today , not the rights and wrong of the political instigation of the conflict. If we did focus on that then ..How those in Turkey see it I'm not sure. Us going there to pay homage.. to what from their perspective must be very different thing. Im not sure. Perhaps they too focus on the sacrifice and the bravery of service rather than the machinations that created the conflict
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It's one way to look at it, for sure. But I believe that without looking at the bigger picture we are actually spitting in the faces of those who gave their lives. Even commemoration MUST bring reflection with it - as we remember the fallen it behooves us all to find out why they fell.

And for whom.

The sun's shining down on these green fields of France;
The warm wind blows gently, and the red poppies dance.
The trenches have vanished long under the plow;
No gas and no barbed wire, no guns firing now.
But here in this graveyard that's still No Man's Land
The countless white crosses in mute witness stand
To man's blind indifference to his fellow man.
And a whole generation who were butchered and damned.

And I can't help but wonder now, Willie McBride,
Do all those who lie here know why they died?
Did you really believe them when they told you "The Cause?"
Did you really believe that this war would end wars?
Well the suffering, the sorrow, the glory, the shame
The killing, the dying, it was all done in vain,
For Willie McBride, it all happened again.
And again, and again, and again, and again...

No Man's Land - Eric Bogle
 
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