Are we Chokers?

[Jimthegreat]

Chokers? We've come from behind 3 times this year for 2 of the wins and a draw. We seem, since late last year, to find something with our backs to the wall, win or lose.

You'll probably find often we've come from behind and won by more than 10 points in the last few years. 10 is just an arbiturary figure.

 

[Stamos]

Computer says...


No

 

[Sin City]

Computer says...


No

Haha, nice bump.

 

[Faz 2000]

I don't think we're chokers at all. Our ability to win arm-wrestles at the moment is pretty commendable.

The problem is these arm-wrestles shouldn't be.

OK, against Essendon we were just awful, so we'll call the draw an escape.

But against the Tiges, Crows and Saints we *dominated* huge slabs of those games. We should have put all those teams away and cruised to 6-8 goal wins in each. We kicked 14.20, 11.19 and 11.18 in those games for a combined (hold your nose) 36.57 in those games, which is amateurish and embarrassing.

I think in AFL 2011 in every game both teams will have their periods of dominance within a given match. We are having FAR more of those than our opposition, but not doing the damage on the scoreboard.

I'll back us in the close ones, but most of our close ones shouldn't be. I also fear what happens when we don't dominate the midfield like we have been - our efficiency going forward is going to absolutely kill us.

 

[HeziBarecket]

It's our structures and how our mids adapt and the quality of deliver into the forward line.

Some of the guys so these silly misdirected kicks, or play on and get caught when they could have had set shots.

It's a bugger when they cross to small guys on leads.

 

[Bluebear]

After this weekends game I was talking with friends and we were trying to remember the last time we got the points in a close one.

So I had a look over the record books to find out in the past 2 seasons how we went in games decided by 10 points or less.

2009
RD 3 VS ESSENDON LOST BY 4 POINT
RD 6 VS HAWTHORN LOST BY 4 POINTS
RD 7 VS FREO LOST BY 7 POINTS
RD 11 VS BRISBANE WIN BY 6 POINTS
RD 12 VS ST KILDA LOST BY 9 POINTS
RD 18 VS NTH MELB WON BY 10 POINTS
EF VS BRISBANE LOST BY 7 POINTS

2010
RD 13 VS FREO LOST BY 9 POINTS
RD 22 VS FREO LOST BY 6
EF VS SYDNEY LOST BY 5

2011
RD 4 VS ESSENDON DRAW

So our record stands at:
Played 11 Won 2 Draw 1 Lost 8

So I put it out there to fellow Blues fans.
Do you think we are chokers?

You should have gone back one more year to 2008.........after that year we were known as "The Comeback Kings".

Richmond hit the lead.......we camback and won. Crows drew level.......we got up........Swans were leading........we ran them down and won.......Saints hit the front.......we came back and won.......Essendon were up by 4 goals when they went 1 man down...we came back to draw.

Chokers?

 

[Koutafidamedis]

Glad this myth got busted pretty quickly after I put the thread up.
Good to see this Blues outfit have some resolve.

FTR I never said we were chokers, i was just putting it out there to other carlton fans after a friend and i were discussing how we always seemed to lose the close ones.

 

[BlueTongue]

No doubt we used to choke at around the 3 or 4 goal in front mark. Just didn't know how to put the game beyond doubt, then drop a bundle when challenged. Thankfully those days seem to be behind us now.

However, we still have that annoying habit of chipping the ball backwards/sidways around in the backline when under huge pressure. Thank God we now have Duigan to take control and run it out.

 

[Shambolic]

We're chokers who keep on winning the close ones

Seriously a team with a more talented forward line yet playing modern press footy will be the death of us. Im looking at Collingwood (tick) and hawthorn (to come) and maybe the newly changed up Geelong. Each of those teams can scrounge goals even if they're not in possession.

If we're 74% possession for large phases like we were against the Saints we'll need to be scoring more goals or the good teams ona quick break will beat us.

 

[40yearBLUE]

We're chokers who keep on winning the close ones

Seriously a team with a more talented forward line yet playing modern press footy will be the death of us. Im looking at Collingwood (tick) and hawthorn (to come) and maybe the newly changed up Geelong. Each of those teams can scrounge goals even if they're not in possession.

If we're 74% possession for large phases like we were against the Saints we'll need to be scoring more goals or the good teams ona quick break will beat us.

You think Geelong has a talented forward line?

 

[Shambolic]

I did say maybe

But yes, if they get possession they can kick quick goals through Varcoe, Chapman, Johnson and perhaps even Podsiadly, if he could kick straight. The Cats used Bartel really well in the last quarter by playing him on the wing swinging into the forward line. The point us that they could beat us even if we have 60% possession owing to our inability to kick goals and secondly their ability to kick goals.

 

[40yearBLUE]

I did say maybe

But yes, if they get possession they can kick quick goals through Varcoe, Chapman, Johnson and perhaps even Podsiadly, if he could kick straight. The Cats used Bartel really well in the last quarter by playing him on the wing swinging into the forward line. The point us that they could beat us even if we have 60% possession owing to our inability to kick goals and secondly their ability to kick goals.

You are getting yourself in a bit deep here I think.

2 goals 9 at 1/4 time
2 goals 10 at half time.

That's 2 entire goals in a half. Oh yes, magical ability to hit the scoreboard hard.

8 goals 17 on the siren.

In 3 other (so 4 of 7) games this year they have kicked more points than goals. We have had 5 games of 7 where we have more points than goals. We have 684 points for from 7 they have 649.

I would say our forward lines have an equal ability to hurt the other team wouldnt you?

 

[Shambolic]

I think you're being a bit light on here, 40yb.

They've just defeated the reigning premiers.

They've just been able to break through enough against that very good defence to win the game. Something we couldn't do.

Our forward line was terrible against Collingwood, too reliant on a fast break through Jazzy jeff. Yes, Hampson couldnt get into it and Thornton almost registered as our best tall forward, but I think you're downplaying the options, flexibility and skill that Geelong has up forward.

 

[40yearBLUE]

I think you're being a bit light on here, 40yb.

They've just defeated the reigning premiers.

They've just been able to break through enough against that very good defence to win the game. Something we couldn't do.

Our forward line was terrible against Collingwood, too reliant on a fast break through Jazzy jeff. Yes, Hampson couldnt get into it and Thornton almost registered as our best tall forward, but I think you're downplaying the options, flexibility and skill that Geelong has up forward.

I am deliberately downplaying their forward line because they dont have one. Or at least its no better than ours. The post I replied to stated that they had an ability to kick goals where we did not. I disputed that claim. You take issue with my dispute so lets examine further:

Garlett 17 Chapman 9
Walker 15 Jpod 9
Betts 12 Bartell 8
Waite 9 Menzel 8
Thornton 5, Varcoe 8
Simpson 5, Stokes 7

They have a wider spread of goal kickers we have more effective individual goal kickers. And 2 of their major goalkickers are mids not forwards (Chapman and Bartell) if I include mids then Gibbs and Murph have 8 between them.

They have a gun midfield probably better than ours truth be told (certainly deeper) but we also have a very very good midfield, and they have a gun back-line definitely better than ours but ours is improving and will get there. And its these areas, defence and midfield run and carry that is winning the Cats games. Not their stellar forward line, with such luminaries of the game as Mooney and Hawkins who barely rate a mention and have a total of 3 goals all to Hawkins (granted Mooney has been out of the side injured, he is also over a 100 years old now isnt he?). Jpod is just OK now that the hype about the fairytale mature age recruit is gone. StevieJ has 4 goals and I think JR will be able to handle him.

Our resting rucks have contributed 7 goals for the year. And Hammer has 2 of them and isnt good enough to get a run at the moment. That tells you something about the contribution of our resting rucks. So we have nothing to rave about there. But their rucks, do they have one? have also not kicked goals so far. Hawkins has played ruck and has 3, (so what, knockers has 3) and Ottens has 2 and so does either Hammer or Irish again, so what.

I think I have laid to rest any myth about them having a better forward line so far this season. That's not to say they might not kill us on Friday or us them, but its not on the form so far.

 

[Shambolic]

Never said they had a better forward line.

Point stands that the Cats efficient forward line kicked a greater score from far fewer opportunities. In the past 4-5 weeks we've had long periods of ball control but not able to knock teams off, yet if the other team is good enough up front then they can keep or enhance pressure on the scoreboard.

I think the Hawks will be able to do the same thing unless we come up with some other strategies here, and they only really have one good small to medium forward.

 

[40yearBLUE]

Never said they had a better forward line.

Point stands that the Cats efficient forward line kicked a greater score from far fewer opportunities. In the past 4-5 weeks we've had long periods of ball control but not able to knock teams off, yet if the other team is good enough up front then they can keep or enhance pressure on the scoreboard.

I think the Hawks will be able to do the same thing unless we come up with some other strategies here, and they only really have one good small to medium forward.

There is no doubt that Geelong is a quality team in all areas except their forward line. You intimated otherwise. Nevertheless, they can kick winning scores without a decent forward line such is their quality everywhere else.

They have a terrible forward line propped up by their abundance of brilliant mids allowing some to pinch hit as forwards. Chapman and Bartel are their leading goal kicker just barely in double figures and although you could argue Chapman started as a forward, he has been a mid for a few seasons now, and Bartel has always been a mid and still is.

If you care to look at the AFL leading goal kicker ladder, there isnt a geelong player on the first page. There are 2 NM, 2 Adelaide, christ there is even a port player, we have 3 in the first 20 by narry a geebung to be found.

Let me repeat that for effect. We have 3 players on the front page of the leading goalkickers. Eddie Betts our third best forward is equal 11th in the comp. This from a barely functioning forward line? Yep, so wish we had Geelongs forwards instead

Because we lost to Geelong does not make any of your arguments placed so far in this thread valid. We lost because we were a bit unlucky. Thats how it goes sometimes. I will take that any time because luck turns. We won the parts of the game that measure the improvement we are looking for, from a young team with years ahead, compared to the last burst from an agreed quality but ageing champion team.

Our time is very close. Our forward structure can be even better, but make no mistake, there is little wrong with it already. 3 players in the top 25 goalkickers, and equal 5th (Jeff) equal 7th (tex) and equal 11th (Eddie) tells me all I need to know.