ASADA case against Essendon hanging by a thread (The Age, 1 Nov 14)

[MaddAdam]

Likewise, Lindy Chamberlin was found guilty. Later cleared, the first verdict still said she did it. THe same imperfections exist both wats.

But imperial_oz pointed out things have changed a little since then,.

Seriously, can we stop the Lindy Chamberlain comparisons?

Its vastly offensive.

 

[DonsRule]

No, Essendon's actions are Essendon's actions are Essendon's actions.

You stop counting premierships won in 1897 and I'll stop reminding you about your history of cheating.

Chamberlain was the victim twice - losing a child then being wrongly convicted of murdering said child and losing her liberty and reputation.

Essendon are NOT victims here.

My point is this is the ASADA board, drugs in sport. Not your views on cheating and the virtues of evil.

Further my point was that no judicial system is perfect, innocent people can be found guilty and vice versa if you want to pick and choose about it. The OJ Simpson example used was just as poor really.

I'll accept Essendon as guilty if the tribunal and any appeals find them so. I won't whinge or say that it was a set up etc.

 

[Apex Predators]

From memory he says he was asked by someone at / connected to Essendon to look into the report to investigate the truth of it. He was approached as he had no allegiances or links to football and a lot of OH&S expertise. He is scathing of the board and a few others (mainly governance failings and a failure to look after the players) but essentially believes the interim report was a stitch up evidence-wise.

Thanks Max, I am obviously playing a bit of catch up here. I have been reading a bit about Francis today and his statements in relation to this matter, mostly on the below link but also a few other places.

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/bruce-francis.1083004/

I have a few questions and observations (not necessarily directed at Max).

1. If Bruce Francis is an OH&S expert (and I read on Wikipedia he has a political science degree), how does this make him qualified to comment on the sufficiency of ASADA's legal case? (I am finding it a bit ironic that hiring Justice Downes seems peculiar to some when Essendon set a far less credible precedent)
2. Even if Bruce Francis was qualified, what makes people think that his views on the interim report is current given the investigation continued to roll on? (Notwithstanding GG's claim that 99% of the evidence remains the same).
3. Given that Essendon contracted (I assume he was paid) Bruce Francis to review the interim report and compare it with the AFL's statement of charges, and he formed the view that it was a stitch up, why did Essendon not fight the penalties it received in 2013? (Potentially a lack of faith in his judgement)
4. An observation: Many of Bruce Francis' rebuttals of the AFL's statement of charges were that the ASADA interim report never once used the phrases 'push to the legal limit', 'pioneering'. Whether these exact terms were used are irrelevant if they adequately describe the intent of the parties as represented in the interim report.
5. An observation: if Bruce Francis was trying to assert impartiality, why not just write a report and publish his findings through Essendon. It does not make sense to me that he instead writes stuff like the letter that he wrote to Caroline Wilson (as he did in this link: https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/c...0SHoBDs9WIkEjL6Oa5K05a5AfD24uaiSdPGZD4ZM?dl=1). If you read that letter, it is rather derogatory (suggesting she is acting like a "hectoring fishwife"), sarcastic (suggesting that "given your omnipotence I thought the least you could do is ..."). Hardly the approach of an impartial, or even reasonable, observer.

 

[Gmod23]

I won't whinge but it was a set up etc.

Be a man. Accept the decision.

 

[Percel]

Be a man. Accept the decision.

Dons lack of punctuation confused what he was actually saying, he's a solid poster. More like;

: I won't whinge (by saying) "but it was a set up" etc.....

 

[fabulousphil]

Bruce Francis started impartial ( bit like myself really) but did not finish up that way.

AFAIK did not get paid, it was a favour for a mate.

Anyone can write a report, anyone and everyone is qualified to do that.

Bruce Francis had more access to info than most if not all here that post.

 

[Apex Predators]

Oj was found not guilty. Doesn't mean he was innocent. That's the way the law works. It's not perfect but it's probably there to ensure innocent people aren't found guilty.

OJ Simpson was found not guilty of homicide in a criminal court applying the standard beyond reasonable doubt. He was later found liable for wrongful death in a civil trial that applied the standard of balance of probabilities, and he was required to pay around $25 million in punitive damages. He was never found 'innocent', but I do believe that he had one heck of an expensive lawyer to get him off his criminal charges.

 

[Apex Predators]

Bruce Francis started impartial ( bit like myself really) but did not finish up that way.

AFAIK did not get paid, it was a favour for a mate.

Anyone can write a report, anyone and everyone is qualified to do that.

Bruce Francis had more access to info than most if not all here that post.

I stand corrected, why write a report. Much more credible to get on big footy with all your inside information and argue your case, or just write to Caro and complain about her partial journalism style.

 

[fabulousphil]

I stand corrected, why write a report. Much more credible to get on big footy with all your inside information and argue your case, or just write to Caro and complain about her partial journalism style.

He could be proven 100% wrong, although i don't think he will be, i think his style is far to confrontational, but that is what he is.

BTW do you actually think Caro is not a hectoring fishwife ?.

 

[Demonalke]

Bruce Francis started impartial ( bit like myself really)

http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threa...upplements-saga.1080332/page-31#post-35967080

Calling something a 'stitch up' from the start does not equal impartial I would imagine.

 

[fabulousphil]

View attachment 104739
http://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/essendon-warned-asada-won’t-go-easy-on-players-over-supplements-saga.1080332/page-31#post-35967080

Calling something a 'stitch up' from the start does not equal impartial I would imagine.

That is correct, that's MO, although i did not wake up like that, i did look at it impartially initially.

guess you are one of the many on this board who also accuses me of being a Essendon supporter, joining up 15 years ago as a Dockers fan just for this special occasion.

 

[andrewb]

Sorry we disagree on this one AOD9604 is a WADA banned substance with potential PED qualities, he had an unfair advantage over other players in the competition.

Its that simple.

If it has potential PED qualities, he potentially had an advantage.

 

[andrewb]

Oj was found not guilty. Doesn't mean he was innocent. That's the way the law works. It's not perfect but it's probably there to ensure innocent people aren't found guilty.

Interestingly William Dear's popular theory these days is that OJ's son committed the crime and that OJ's erratic behaviour was part of an elaborate cover up. So it is reasonably likely that OJ was only guilty of perverting the course of justice.

 

[Percel]

guess you are one of the many on this board who also accuses me of being a Essendon supporter, joining up 15 years ago as a Dockers fan just for this special occasion.

You have tremendous foreskinsight Phil

 

[Apex Predators]

I haven't made any statements about whether his views of the case are right or wrong. I have questions about his experience in formulating an opinion, even if he had inside information, and how current his information currently is. My criticism was of his approach to expressing his views, which seems a wasted opportunity if he actually had inside knowledge. He could have been a voice of reason for Essendon, but based on what I have read he is certainly not that as much as some on here want him to be.

I have no opinion on your Caro question, she is a journalist who writes her opinion with a fair amount of it being dribble. But which journalists don't write at least some dribble. i do think that Bruce Francis' letter was very poorly written and, even if it had a point to make, the message was lost in his scornful and condescending tone.

 

[Go_Blues!]

I actually agree that the whole matrix argument was light on, and said as much - but that's a pretty minor aspect and doesn't really have all that much to do with the documentation in his possession.

His opinion was not really the valuable bit as such - the doco he had in his possession was the valuable bit.

But how interested were people in finding out about that doco?

Instead we had people calling him a liar because on some other board he said he emailed rather than phoned, or vice versa, I mean, fair dinkum...

If you take the view that he was better informed than everyone else, that is compelling. However, information is only one (yet significant) part of this. Information is different from evidence and evidence is different to understanding a case. The key part is the ability to put a case together in a coherent and compelling way. I am absolutely certain that a person with the entire case brief, is not in a position to determine guilt or otherwise. This is just one of the reasons that your self-righteousness does not fit well. Even if you had all the evidence, you would not be able to determine an outcome in this case. Shit, even if you were a judge, you had read the entire case documents, you would still not be able to determine the case. Anyone who thinks they can determine the outcome of this case has exactly a 50% chance of being right. That is not to say that the case is in the balance (although I think it very well may be), it is just to say that evidence is different to a case.

 

[andrewb]

I haven't made any statements about whether his views of the case are right or wrong. I have questions about his experience in formulating an opinion, even if he had inside information, and how current his information currently is. My criticism was of his approach to expressing his views, which seems a wasted opportunity if he actually had inside knowledge. He could have been a voice of reason for Essendon, but based on what I have read he is certainly not that as much as some on here want him to be.

I have no opinion on your Caro question, she is a journalist who writes her opinion with a fair amount of it being dribble. But which journalists don't write at least some dribble. i do think that Bruce Francis' letter was very poorly written and, even if it had a point to make, the message was lost in his scornful and condescending tone.

Bruce was a bit challenging at times, but he gave everyone access to information that was in the interim report but removed from the AFL charge sheet. That stuff should have been interesting to people, regardless of what you think of his opinions. Unfortunately he got quickly shouted down over some minor shit and he packed up his toys and went home.

Thompson, Reid and Corcoran were royally screwed over by the AFL. If it turns out that there is no conclusive evidence that Hird was involved in implementing a PED program then Hird was royally screwed over as well. There's a pattern to the way that Demetriou operated, borne out by the experiences of Matt Rendell and Dean Bailey amongst others. Find a scapegoat and use your media clout to paper over the cracks in the competition. Bruce gave everyone the story of what actually happened but noone was interested in reading it.

 

[DonsRule]

Be a man. Accept the decision.

My poor typing, I meant I would accept it no matter which way it

 

[hfchfc]

Bruce was a bit challenging at times, but he gave everyone access to information that was in the interim report but removed from the AFL charge sheet. That stuff should have been interesting to people, regardless of what you think of his opinions. Unfortunately he got quickly shouted down over some minor shit and he packed up his toys and went home.

Thompson, Reid and Corcoran were royally screwed over by the AFL. If it turns out that there is no conclusive evidence that Hird was involved in implementing a PED program then Hird was royally screwed over as well. There's a pattern to the way that Demetriou operated, borne out by the experiences of Matt Rendell and Dean Bailey amongst others. Find a scapegoat and use your media clout to paper over the cracks in the competition. Bruce gave everyone the story of what actually happened but noone was interested in reading it.

If it turns out there was nothing in it? Please champ we are not sitting in a tribunal for no reason! Aside from that, they were done for governance issues which I didn't think was even being disputed

 

[Armchair Critic]

Bruce was a bit challenging at times, but he gave everyone access to information that was in the interim report but removed from the AFL charge sheet. That stuff should have been interesting to people, regardless of what you think of his opinions. Unfortunately he got quickly shouted down over some minor shit and he packed up his toys and went home.

Thompson, Reid and Corcoran were royally screwed over by the AFL. If it turns out that there is no conclusive evidence that Hird was involved in implementing a PED program then Hird was royally screwed over as well. There's a pattern to the way that Demetriou operated, borne out by the experiences of Matt Rendell and Dean Bailey amongst others. Find a scapegoat and use your media clout to paper over the cracks in the competition. Bruce gave everyone the story of what actually happened but noone was interested in reading it.

He gave us bit and pieces and picked snippets from the interim report , it was no diiferent to the AFL charge sheet

 

[DonsRule]

He gave us bit and pieces and picked snippets from the interim report , it was no diiferent to the AFL charge sheet

Pretty fair that.

I enjoyed some of the information Bruce released. I wasn't a fan though of his overly aggressive and confrontational style of writing.

 

[RIOLIUSTAR]

Seriously, can we stop the Lindy Chamberlain comparisons?

Its vastly offensive.

The dingo ate the spreadsheet ?

 

[Lion of Panjshir]

The dingo ate the spreadsheet ?

The dingo ate the dumplings.

 

[fabulousphil]

You have tremendous foreskinsight Phil

Don't like to brag, but you are correct on both counts.

 

[Percel]

Don't like to brag, but you are correct on both counts.

#Massiveunit