Europe Backdrop to the war in Ukraine

[Gethelred]

This is the thread for the geopolitics, history and framework around the Russia-Ukraine conflict. If you want to discuss the events of the war, head over to this thread:

Europe - War in Ukraine - Thread 4 - thread rules updated

This is the thread for discussing the War in Ukraine. Should you want to discuss the geopolitics, the history, or an interesting tangent, head over here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/backdrop-to-the-war-in-ukraine.1302028/ If a post isn't directly concerning the events of the war or...

www.bigfooty.com

 

[wannabejack]

Aussie-Kiwi-Ukraine Connection Prepares for Forum

An international conference will be held in Lviv to position Australia and New Zealand as “first-movers” in the rush to support Ukraine as well as benefit from Kyiv’s technological know-how.

www.kyivpost.com

“if you are operating in sectors that intersect with defense, dual-use tech, cyber, critical infrastructure, emergency services, advanced manufacturing, data, or systems integration, you need to be in Ukraine now. Being there now matters because this is where: systems are being built, broken, fixed, and rebuilt in real time; technologies are being tested under real-world pressure; and policy, procurement, and operating models are evolving the fastest.”

 

[barreness]

Shows how little you know about the region really, remove your head from Putins arse to see daylight.

To the Ukranian people you had a new democratic leaning instance where just like previously you had Russia with tendrils seeking to keep borders close so that it can both take later and govern.

Ok, the right sector(an armed fascist militia) took control over the Rada and many govt buildings when the vote took place right? That's a coup

This area trends back to the Turks and the Ottomans basically.
Ottomans held it in the 1700's, Russia came and it was at this point they went from losing everytime to "I'm at the end of my empire and having a slow death" Ottomans for a win to go yoink on it.

Bessarabia is the region, it is part of Moldova and Ukraine and this is the region where Russia got the foot in from the Ottomans to create Transistria.

Ok, the Ottomans were gone by 1990 right? I'm down for discussion about how Ottoman incursion into the Balkans created some trouble though

yep, you are correct, it is a created state and not natural to the area, born from conflict instead. Now when did it become known as Transistria, sicne under Imperial Russia this was the Bessarabian Governate?

Thanks the NAZI's for that as it's our good old friend that Molotov-Ribbentrop pact from WW2.

Dude the soviets lost 27 million people and liberated the death camps, this is a shit argument

Russia, with the biggest BDE energy of "I'll lose millions and ask for help when my cities burn so i can claim total victory later when the allied counter is successful. But it's all me and mine" energy they can muster, pressured Romania to let them in so the annexation could take place into what we know today.

Lol. the Romanians were Nazi allies. They were defeated

The US forces in the battle of the Bulge would likely thank them for it. The lack of Romanian oil meant the Luftwaffe was grounded and the tanks were stopped

Now Romania as the previous holders as Moldova didn't really exist at this point on a map, was axis, invaded Russia with the NAZI's, got their arses kicked then flipped allied later in '44. Russia simplt flipped earlier sicjne they got invaded upon firstr and Romania went similar to the Finns in "I'll get muh land back" mode.

Yeh nah. It's becasue Moldova is mainly Romanian(ethnically/language), the Transitrians didn't want to be a part of that post USSR collapse

You know how war is terrible and all? Russia seems to gain a metric shit tone from war like actions across the centiuries, they're like a cockroach that just nibbles at things consistently. Anywho..

Hmmmmmm, vermin right? never seen this go bad before

Since Moltrop, when the Russian moved in wham bam Moldolvan soviet supah dupah now withg kung fu grip HOOOOO!

So that whgen the USSR collapsed later Russia could move in and go to war with Moldova to go "this bit of Bessarabia is MINE!" and hey presto, Transistria and why no one recognises that doesn't lean Russian.

Kinda funny for "just the locals", almost seems like in your ignorance, you just disregard the several conflicts of people taking this land and familes being torn apart bits. I can understand why since you seem weak willed and scared to do literlaly any research as some of the accounts are quite harrowing to read, like a father losing his son as language changed, so spoken word, writing, all failed...

This is schizo posting, but sure.

You don't think the Transitrians are defending their 'homeland'?

 

[wannabejack]

The parallels between Hitler’s views on Austria and Putin’s views on Ukraine.
Hitler believed that Austrians were ethnically German and that Austria was a "lost province" that needed to be reunited with the "great German motherland".
Putin has frequently argued that Russians and Ukrainians are "one people" and that Ukraine is an "integral part" of Russian history, culture, and spiritual space.

The parallels between Hitler’s views (actions) on Czechoslovakia and Putin’s views on Ukraine.
23 February, 2022

Hitler and Putin: 1938 and 2022

Hitler delivered his speech of September 12, 1938 to the German Reichstag a few weeks before the German tanks rolled over the German-Czech border to invade Czechoslovakia; Putin delivered his speech of February 21, 2022 to the Russian nation as he was giving orders for the Russian tanks to cross...

publicorthodoxy.org

 

[StFly]

Ok, the right sector(an armed fascist militia) took control over the Rada and many govt buildings when the vote took place right? That's a coup

Ok, the Ottomans were gone by 1990 right? I'm down for discussion about how Ottoman incursion into the Balkans created some trouble though

Dude the soviets lost 27 million people and liberated the death camps, this is a shit argument

Lol. the Romanians were Nazi allies. They were defeated

The US forces in the battle of the Bulge would likely thank them for it. The lack of Romanian oil meant the Luftwaffe was grounded and the tanks were stopped

Yeh nah. It's becasue Moldova is mainly Romanian(ethnically/language), the Transitrians didn't want to be a part of that post USSR collapse

Hmmmmmm, vermin right? never seen this go bad before

This is schizo posting, but sure.

You don't think the Transitrians are defending their 'homeland'?

First mention as Transistrian: Molotov-Ribbentrop.
Prior instances; Bessarabian, be it Russian, Ukranian, Romanian, Ottoman, generally European or an Empire at the time.

Ask your stupid question again please, you are proving my point how you have NFI about the region you are trying to speak about to a person who did a friggen dissertation on it and went to thesis on the subject.

You are out of depth, even if as you put it, I didn't use any of of my "nazi" depth by spending any time in Italy.

And FTR, Ottomans were WW1, not WW2. Maybe google next time you want to speak about geographic things. Also FTR, Romania lacked a great many things around this time period, hence why they lost a lot and flipped so many times after conflicts to be like Finland in WW2 of "ooh goodie, my land back" to "oh crap, obstacles! F-Me!" in rather quick succession.

The "generally accepted" version of Moldova;
stack it

And no Russian, just tldr;
Buddy buddy until Golden Horde.
Was Ok enough as an empire, just bled internally far too often as many stupid people making decisions.
Revolution happened to end the empire and that land mass was basically split down the middle at this point;

• This is a good thing, Russia can change for the better.
• I heard their speech, read their books, Russia is cooked.

As we then know, Lenin died, was a bit crazy, Stalin got to power, his ambition went to the moon, millions died, but they had land and things. Yeltsin literally collapsed the union and the state, Putin is in the process of collapsing it again (slowly with a misinformation song) whilst the other mass murder is on the rise.

Yep, China. Which is a completely different kettle of WTAF.

One Child Policy has "estimates". CCP state 400 million.

Goodbye old king.
Hello new king.
To your kingdom of corpses.

 

[barreness]

First mention as Transistrian: Molotov-Ribbentrop.
Prior instances; Bessarabian, be it Russian, Ukranian, Romanian, Ottoman, generally European or an Empire at the time.

Ask your stupid question again please, you are proving my point how you have NFI about the region you are trying to speak about to a person who did a friggen dissertation on it and went to thesis on the subject.

You are out of depth, even if as you put it, I didn't use any of of my "nazi" depth by spending any time in Italy.

No shit, did I say differently

Maybe google next time you want to speak about geographic things. Also FTR, Romania lacked a great many things around this time period, hence why they lost a lot and flipped so many times after conflicts to be like Finland in WW2 of "ooh goodie, my land back" to "oh crap, obstacles! F-Me!" in rather quick succession.

The "generally accepted" version of Moldova;
stack it

Ok I was talking about the break up of the USSR and how that caused a schism in Moldova between the Romania and Russian/Ukraine speaking parts

And no Russian, just tldr;
Buddy buddy until Golden Horde.
Was Ok enough as an empire, just bled internally far too often as many stupid people making decisions.
Revolution happened to end the empire and that land mass was basically split down the middle at this point;

• This is a good thing, Russia can change for the better.
• I heard their speech, read their books, Russia is cooked.

As we then know, Lenin died, was a bit crazy, Stalin got to power, his ambition went to the moon, millions died, but they had land and things. Yeltsin literally collapsed the union and the state, Putin is in the process of collapsing it again (slowly with a misinformation song) whilst the other mass murder is on the rise.

Yep, China. Which is a completely different kettle of WTAF.

One Child Policy has "estimates". CCP state 400 million.

Goodbye old king.
Hello new king.
To your kingdom of corpses.

You did a dissertation on Moldova?

Honestly I can't make heads nor tails of this post. Are we just talking about Moldova/Transitria or all the other stuff

 

[Zidane98]

Imagine any poster on this forum posting one inch eastwards Kremlin lies.

 

[barreness]

Imagine any poster on this forum posting one inch eastwards Kremlin lies.

Wait what?

You don't think the 'not one inch eastward' promise was made?

It obviously wasn't put in a treaty or anything, much to Gorby's naivety. Both sides confirm it was given, to pull him over the line for German reunification

 

[Zidane98]

Wait what?

You don't think the 'not one inch eastward' promise was made?

It obviously wasn't put in a treaty or anything, much to Gorby's naivety. Both sides confirm it was given, to pull him over the line for German reunification

I knew you can't read screenshots.

The documentation proves that one inch eastward specifically refers to new NATO bases on territory that was formerly East Germany.

Gorbachev also confirms this.

This agreement has been honoured to this very day tovarisch.

I know honouring agreements is difficult for you to understand.

 

[wannabejack]

russian supporters like to bring up.
Baker suggested NATO would move "not one inch eastward"
no formal written treaty to support it.

But it’s ok for russian supporters to play down .
In an interview with Germany's ARD television in 2008, Russian President Vladimir Putin stated that Moscow recognizes all of Ukraine's borders, and that there is no issue of ethnic conflict in Crimea.

Formal written
“Treaty of Friendship”
Article 2 of the Treaty stipulates that both parties respect each other's territorial integrity and confirm the immutability of the borders existing between them. Which Ukraine didn't renew after russia's invasion

Beginning its armed aggression against Ukraine in 2014, Russia violated fundamental norms and principles of international law, as well as a number of bilateral and multilateral treaties and agreements, including the Treaty on the Ukraine-Russia state border (signed by Putin).

Budapest Memorandum. (Memorandum on security assurances)

 

[barreness]

I knew you can't read screenshots.

There is like three sentences covered in the tweet by shit edit lines. do better

The documentation proves that one inch eastward specifically refers to new NATO bases on territory that was formerly East Germany.

Gorbachev also confirms this.

It did and he did. He also confirmed that any further expansion beyond Germany would clearly be way beyond the promise. READ THE INTERVIEW FFS
https://www.rbth.com/international/2014/10/16/mikhail_gorbachev_i_am_against_all_walls_40673.html
The decision for the U.S. and its allies to expand NATO into the east was decisively made in 1993. I called this a big mistake from the very beginning. It was definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990.

 

[barreness]

russian supporters like to bring up.
Baker suggested NATO would move "not one inch eastward"
no formal written treaty to support it.

But it’s ok for russian supporters to play down .
In an interview with Germany's ARD television in 2008, Russian President Vladimir Putin stated that Moscow recognizes all of Ukraine's borders, and that there is no issue of ethnic conflict in Crimea.

Formal written
“Treaty of Friendship”
Article 2 of the Treaty stipulates that both parties respect each other's territorial integrity and confirm the immutability of the borders existing between them. Which Ukraine didn't renew after russia's invasion

Beginning its armed aggression against Ukraine in 2014, Russia violated fundamental norms and principles of international law, as well as a number of bilateral and multilateral treaties and agreements, including the Treaty on the Ukraine-Russia state border (signed by Putin).

Budapest Memorandum. (Memorandum on security assurances)

Was cool before the 2014 coup, this is not a great leap. They even let the orange revolution go

 

[Zidane98]

A non existent

There is like three sentences covered in the tweet by shit edit lines. do better

It did and he did. He also confirmed that any further expansion beyond Germany would clearly be way beyond the promise. READ THE INTERVIEW FFS
https://www.rbth.com/international/2014/10/16/mikhail_gorbachev_i_am_against_all_walls_40673.html
The decision for the U.S. and its allies to expand NATO into the east was decisively made in 1993. I called this a big mistake from the very beginning. It was definitely a violation of the spirit of the statements and assurances made to us in 1990.

Lol. This applies to you (the part that vatniks do not read or ignore)




The reality is one inch eastward was a written obligation into the final settlement of Germany where NATO agreed to no bases on former East Germany territory.

No amount of bullshitting from you changes or alters this. It is an indisputable fact, written in writing, provided to you in the actual final settlement of Germany.

Now that you are undeniably in possession of that written agreement any attempt to argue that there was a no NATO expansion in Eastern Europe agreement is simply untenable & dishonest. Moreover those nations sought membership and we all know why.


On this note how do you think it looks when you put so much value in a non existent agreement but attempt to downplay Budapest agreement.

Reality is Russia & Border agreed an inviolable border agreement in 2003 that was ratified by both states and lodged with the UN. This is legally binding and absolute.

That will not and can not be amended without permission from Ukraine.


Good luck with that as Ukranians view Pedo Putin much in the same way Jews viewed Hitler during WW2.


It must really suck for you have to defend this filthy scumbag all day every day.

 

[wannabejack]

Was cool before the 2014 coup, this is not a great leap. They even let the orange revolution go

Part of russian and your propaganda is repetitive false messaging.

 

[Zidane98]

Part of russian and your propaganda is repetitive false messaging.

Yep.


The facts show that there was no coup in 2014 - anyone claiming this is spreading false Kremlin propaganda.


Full elections were held in mid 2014 following on from 2010 elections.


Rada remained the same pre Maidan to post Maidan with the exception of a determination that Yanukovych had resigned / abandoned his position as President of Ukraine.

There are of course vatniks who will attempt to portray Yatsyenuk as a shill but the actual reality is Yanukovych had previously offered him the position of PM so it wasn't surprising that's who the Rada went with for an interim PM.

 

[barreness]

Part of russian and your propaganda is repetitive false messaging.

Coup/ revolution, same thing tbh

You can call it a revolution, I've no issue with that. If armed blokes take control of the govt building and a vote happens that breaks all sorts of constitutional laws then its a coup/ revolution

I'd say the same for French/US/Russian revs

 

[barreness]

Someone was suggesting that the Russian army in WWII, was some sort of super irresistible force.
In fact they were very ineffective and Stalin was simply throwing the not dead yet corpses of Russians at the Germans.

Russian lives were very cheap.

And this is what happens when you don't denazify.......

No man, they didn't throw bodies at the superior wehrmacht. The soviets only lost slightly more men on the battlefield(many more in the POW(read death) camps than the Nazis).

It was in fact a study on defence in depth, as was WW1/civil war/Napoleon

 

[Zidane98]

And this is what happens when you don't denazify.......

No man, they didn't throw bodies at the superior wehrmacht. The soviets only lost slightly more men on the battlefield(many more in the POW(read death) camps than the Nazis).

It was in fact a study on defence in depth, as was WW1/civil war/Napoleon

Ukranian losses in WW2 were 16% of the population, your losses were 12%.

 

[barreness]

Ukranian losses in WW2 were 16% of the population, your losses were 12%.

I don't count the Nazi collaborators

 

[barreness]

Don't think he was talking about real estate
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jean-Luc_Brunel

 

[wannabejack]

I don't count the Nazi collaborators

Always quick to bring out the Ukrainian Nazi collaborators card.
But no mention of high level of collaboration by russian people who aligned themselves with Hitler.

Ivan Ilyin, Pyotr Krasnov, and Andrei Shkuro were prominent figures in the Russian White Émigré movement who, driven by intense anti-communism, aligned themselves with Nazi Germany during the 1930s and World War II.

Pyotr Krasnov (1869–1947): A Don Cossack chieftain (Ataman) and prolific writer, Krasnov allied with the Nazis in 1941 to fight the Soviet Union. He was tasked by the German Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories with managing Cossack units, eventually helping to form the XVth SS Cossack Cavalry Corps.

Andrei Shkuro (1887–1947): A lieutenant general under the White Army, Shkuro was known for his fierce anti-Bolshevism. In 1941, he agreed to organize Cossack units for the German army and was placed in command of the "Cossack Reserve" in 1944, which was involved in operations against Yugoslav partisans.

 

[barreness]

Always quick to bring out the Ukrainian Nazi collaborators card.
But no mention of high level of collaboration by russian people who aligned themselves with Hitler.

Ivan Ilyin, Pyotr Krasnov, and Andrei Shkuro were prominent figures in the Russian White Émigré movement who, driven by intense anti-communism, aligned themselves with Nazi Germany during the 1930s and World War II.

Pyotr Krasnov (1869–1947): A Don Cossack chieftain (Ataman) and prolific writer, Krasnov allied with the Nazis in 1941 to fight the Soviet Union. He was tasked by the German Ministry for the Occupied Eastern Territories with managing Cossack units, eventually helping to form the XVth SS Cossack Cavalry Corps.

Andrei Shkuro (1887–1947): A lieutenant general under the White Army, Shkuro was known for his fierce anti-Bolshevism. In 1941, he agreed to organize Cossack units for the German army and was placed in command of the "Cossack Reserve" in 1944, which was involved in operations against Yugoslav partisans.

White army generals? that sided with the allies and the central powers?

Yeh I'm not counting them either

 

[Zidane98]

I don't count the Nazi collaborators

I agree with you not counting Russian losses. You got something right for once.

 

[Aussie in exile]

I agree with you not counting Russian losses. You got something right for once.

Probably to many dead russians to count, and still i wait for barronssky to say if they are in favour of illegal invasions of sovereign countries, and seem's very reluctant to answer my question and I can't think why

 

[steve strange]

Probably to many dead russians to count, and still i wait for barronssky to say if they are in favour of illegal invasions of sovereign countries, and seem's very reluctant to answer my question and I can't think why

What law says illegal ?

 

[Aussie in exile]

What law says illegal ?

Are you serious?
Do you support russias illegal invasion of Ukraine?
Would you object the US invading russia?