Strategy Backline - (Rebounding vs Shut Down Ability)

[mike123]

What defenders should be in our backline to get the best balance of run and carry, foot skills and defensive ability?


At the moment we have a high number of defensive defenders in: Nathan Brown, Jack Frost, Tyson Goldsack, Alan Toovey, Marley Williams, Ben Sinclair Jackson Ramsay and Darcy Moore (If he plays down there)

Defenders with footskills we have: Ben Reid (If he plays down there), Lachlan Keeffe, Tom Langdon, Adam Oxley, Tony Armstrong, Alex Fasolo (If he plays down there) Mathew Scharenberg(when fit)

And defenders that can run the ball out of the backline: Paul Seedsman, Clinton Young, Travis Varcoe, Tim Broomhead (Pretty much everyone here plays a different position)



My Ideal back line that would have both footskills rebound ability and defensive ability would be:

B: Tom Langdon ~ Nathan Brown ~ Marley Williams
HB: Adam Oxley ~ Lachlan Keeffe ~ Paul Seedsman/Clinton Young

I/C: Alan Toovey/Jack Frost/Tyson Goldsack


The third tall defender role gets swapped around from Langdon, Oxley and the person on the bench depending on the other teams forward line.

Seedsman and Young rotate from half back and the wing.

And one of Frost, Goldsack or Toovey gets selected depending on the other teams forward line.

I have Oxley in because I have faith in him if he has a good pre season that he can have an impact next year.

When Scharenberg come's back he'll take the bench spot.

 

[ThisIsJake]

I would assume Toovey would be a lock in the 18.

 

[Knightmare]

This is our best back half as presently constructed (when healthy).

B: Toovey Frost Williams
HB: Langdon Keeffe Scharenberg
Rotational: Seedsman

In an ideal world Williams becomes more a midfielder/rotational forward and we get a Corey Enright or Shannon Hurn equivalent to take his position. Just finding that level of rebounder would be the difficulty with the challenge always being finding that superiority of player by position.

As long as not two of Toovey and Williams are playing back (same story with the other negating rebounders/guys who can't kick) in the back half.
And Frost and Brown don't both play.

That's more the look you want in our back half ideally. But again it comes down to the quality of players you can get there and I wouldn't be so intentional in going for balance over the quality of player.

 

[Bard]

This is our best back half as presently constructed (when healthy).

B: Toovey Frost Williams
HB: Langdon Keeffe Scharenberg
Rotational: Seedsman

In an ideal world Williams becomes more a midfielder/rotational forward and we get a Corey Enright or Shannon Hurn equivalent to take his position. Just finding that level of rebounder would be the difficulty with the challenge always being finding that superiority of player by position.

As long as not two of Toovey and Williams are playing back (same story with the other negating rebounders/guys who can't kick) in the back half.
And Frost and Brown don't both play.

That's more the look you want in our back half ideally. But again it comes down to the quality of players you can get there and I wouldn't be so intentional in going for balance over the quality of player.

In terms of our 'best' back half Frost/Brown are very much interchangeable as I don't see one being outright better than the other, they just need to be picked based on their strengths that match well against the opposition.

 

[Hagla]

IMO Scharenberg doesn't automatically become part of our best 6 defenders just because he was pick 6 (he's basically a fresh draftee with big injury worries atm), he needs to prove himself before pushing anyone out of the side. Frost, Brown and Keefe are all interchangeable and those positions will depend on form and opposition (when considering opposition Goldsack could also enter discussions within this group) with the possibility of all three playing in the same side. I wouldn't have Oxley ahead of any defender on our list.

B: Alan Toovey ~ Nathan Brown ~ Tyson Goldsack
HB: Tom Langdon ~ Lachlan Keeffe ~ Marley Williams

Int/Other players in best 22 capable of playing in defence: Frost, Young, Varcoe, Seedsman, Reid, Fasolo and possibly Sinclair.

 

[Hagla]

As long as not two of Toovey and Williams are playing back (same story with the other negating rebounders/guys who can't kick) in the back half.
And Frost and Brown don't both play.

Williams and Toovey can definitely play in the same backline together, and I expect nothing less when both are fit. They are both great shutdown defenders with some run and carry ability. Their kicking could improve but they are solid enough to play alongside each other IMO.

Frost and Brown will not be picked on rebounding ability which I assume is why you believe they can't both play in the same side? If anything I'd be more worried about having both Brown and Keefe in the same backline together as both are slower and less agile and will be looking to play on similar forwards. In any case, the KPD's will be picked on their shutdown ability and best match ups and not how well they can provide offensive rebound (unless you have someone like Reid in contention [which we do but I suspect he'll stay forward]).

 

[Quicky]

You need both. Our balance has swung far too much towards a stoic lock down group of battlers. Very good defensively but like quick sand with it's ball movement out. The loss of Shaw stings. We need to swing that balance back the other way a touch. Our best back line in my view is as follows:

Williams - Brown - Toovey
Langdon - Reid - Scharenberg

That is a good balance between rebound, offense, height, ability to take smalls talls and everything in between. That said in our best 22 I would have Reid forward and one of Keeffe and Frost back. Keeffe for balance is the better fit.

 

[Hagla]

You need both. Our balance has swung far too much towards a stoic lock down group of battlers. Very good defensively but like quick sand with it's ball movement out. The loss of Shaw stings. We need to swing that balance back the other way a touch. Our best back line in my view is as follows:

Williams - Brown - Toovey
Langdon - Reid - Scharenberg

That is a good balance between rebound, offense, height, ability to take smalls talls and everything in between. That said in our best 22 I would have Reid forward and one of Keeffe and Frost back. Keeffe for balance is the better fit.

Although I agree we need some more rebounding types, I'd like to know what Scharenberg has done (other than being pick 6) to justify selection over a player such as Seedsman? As far as I am concerned he would be on level pegging with our pick 5 this year (if we recruited a rebounding defender) if not further behind as a result of injury. I am as hopeful as anyone when it comes to youth but I don't like the idea of putting him ahead of players just because he was a high draft pick. I just think it's a case of overrating draft picks as he hasn't even had a chance to show anything yet.

 

[Old Spice]

I'm going to go for the following based on availability.

B: Langdon | Frost | Williams
HB: Young | Keeffe | Sidebottom
Wing rotation: Broomhead

 

[DERKADERRR]

This is our best back half as presently constructed (when healthy).

B: Toovey Frost Williams
HB: Langdon Keeffe Scharenberg
Rotational: Seedsman

In an ideal world Williams becomes more a midfielder/rotational forward and we get a Corey Enright or Shannon Hurn equivalent to take his position. Just finding that level of rebounder would be the difficulty with the challenge always being finding that superiority of player by position.

As long as not two of Toovey and Williams are playing back (same story with the other negating rebounders/guys who can't kick) in the back half.
And Frost and Brown don't both play.

That's more the look you want in our back half ideally. But again it comes down to the quality of players you can get there and I wouldn't be so intentional in going for balance over the quality of player.

Why did you choose Frost over Brown? Brown had a really good season in 2013 and was missed this year in defence IMO. Frost can be a fair bit of a liability outside of his defensive skill, tackling and speed, I've been re-watching some of the games from this season and 2013 (lack of footy is killing me!!!) and doing my best to pay attention to all the players and when it comes to Frost, his disposal (both hand and foot) are horrible, he fumbles the ball at ground level and is 23 by next year. It absolutely destroys our run out of our defence if we have too many poor disposers of the ball in our defence, I'm not sure how we can afford to have all three of Williams, Frost and Toovey in our defence.

Without Injuries my backline would be:

B: Toovey Brown Langdon
HB: Reid Keeffe Scharenberg
Int: Oxley

 

[Old Spice]

I reckon Frost is a good spoiler and provides more dash and run. Once he's settled I reckon he'll provide good value to the defence.

 

[Knightmare]

I favour Frost over Brown because I see him as the better player. He is more athletic and I'd argue already a better stopper and from this year I think he has a real opportunity to create that separation between himself and Brown with a strong offseason.

On Scharenberg I have him as an automatic starter simply because he is that good. None of our backmen are outstanding, but Scharenberg if you've watched any of his SANFL League footy from years past is more than good enough to if healthy be an automatic selection.

 

[DERKADERRR]

I favour Frost over Brown because I see him as the better player. He is more athletic and I'd argue already a better stopper and from this year I think he has a real opportunity to create that separation between himself and Brown with a strong offseason.

On Scharenberg I have him as an automatic starter simply because he is that good. None of our backmen are outstanding, but Scharenberg if you've watched any of his SANFL League footy from years past is more than good enough to if healthy be an automatic selection.

I'm not sure I agree with you on Frost being the better stopper than Brown, I would say he does better on the more athletic types but not on the big guys. Don't you think his disposal makes him a bit of a liability though?

Edit: Forgot to talk about Scharenberg, I have seen only highlights but I have liked what I've seen of him, lets just hope he recovers well because he obviously has great talent.

 

[Knightmare]

I'm not sure I agree with you on Frost being the better stopper than Brown, I would say he does better on the more athletic types but not on the big guys. Don't you think his disposal makes him a bit of a liability though?

Frost is a poor user of the ball. You are right. And that's why I wouldn't want him in the same back half with Brown (not a rebounder) or two of Williams (another poor ball user) or Toovey (not a rebounder). It would be the same story with Sinclair who is another who I certainly wouldn't want running around in that same back half as a further poor ball user.

Brown is the slightly stronger but Frost I don't have a major issue with from a strength or 1v1 perspective. I feel he is in that same conversation as Brown in that regard but then better v the more athletic and certainly much better v the more freakish and more agile types.

 

[THATSGOLD]

When I look at 2010 I see a backline that I want to mould the next team on.

We need to find another Prestigiacomo. He was the best full back you could ask for.

Nathan Brown hasn't lived up to the hype since the Riewoldt job in the GF.

Toovey is older and since the ACL battled. Lost the pace that made him dangerous.

Keeffe i don't feel is good enough to make us a top 4 team.

Reid must go and be that All Australian CHB that made us a premiership defence. He needs to be the Captain of the defense without Nick Maxwell down there anymore he is the man to get the troops in the right position near and around him.

The backline for me is the most important part of the whole team. You don't put your junk like Sinclair Keeffe Fasolo down there and watch the ball sail over their heads time and time again. Buckleys biggest mistake in his coaching is just that. He's failed to get the defence right since taking over. Taking Ried out of there was his biggest flaw. We are nearly last on the ladder for lack of skill in defence.
Buckley needs to admit he's ****ed up and get a malthouse type defence again at Collingwood.

 

[Quicky]

Although I agree we need some more rebounding types, I'd like to know what Scharenberg has done (other than being pick 6) to justify selection over a player such as Seedsman? As far as I am concerned he would be on level pegging with our pick 5 this year (if we recruited a rebounding defender) if not further behind as a result of injury. I am as hopeful as anyone when it comes to youth but I don't like the idea of putting him ahead of players just because he was a high draft pick. I just think it's a case of overrating draft picks as he hasn't even had a chance to show anything yet.

Realistically I don't think Scharenberg will be a starting back 6 early next year. The back 6 I named was me looking at the resources on our list and going "that's the back 6 I want to see on the park for us". Considering fitness and what not, well yeah Seedsman pips Shaz at the post (though I think the Seed is a better winger than half back tbh). But on talent Scharenberg is well above Seedsman. He hasn't had the opportunity to show it yet but I'm pretty confident that's not just bluster on my behalf.

 

[Quicky]

I reckon Frost is a good spoiler and provides more dash and run. Once he's settled I reckon he'll provide good value to the defence.

Before Brown re-injured himself this year I thought his rebound was pretty good. Seemed to have stepped it up a fair bit. The difference in my view was Frost seemed to run into trouble where as Browns forays were a bit more productive. Two good key defenders irrespective.

 

[THATSGOLD]

Realistically I don't think Scharenberg will be a starting back 6 early next year. The back 6 I named was me looking at the resources on our list and going "that's the back 6 I want to see on the park for us". Considering fitness and what not, well yeah Seedsman pips Shaz at the post (though I think the Seed is a better winger than half back tbh). But on talent Scharenberg is well above Seedsman. He hasn't had the opportunity to show it yet but I'm pretty confident that's not just bluster on my behalf.

Yeh Scharenberg should debut round 1 2016 all being well. Join the boys in the pre season.

 

[THATSGOLD]

I'm going to go for the following based on availability.

B: Langdon | Frost | Williams
HB: Young | Keeffe | Sidebottom
Wing rotation: Broomhead

Defensive spine is the worst in the AFL as it stands.

 

[Prestige Presti]

I'll cop flak but i think we missed Sinclair a fair bit, the bloke towards the end of 2013 seemed to click, he was running the ball and doing it well.

We really, really missed that offensive running flair this year, Sinclair being injured, Seedsman missing half a year with a dodgy hip and Williams after his court case never quite got it together, Young looked quite good in parts but perhaps missing 2013 stuffed him around, couldn't pull a full season together. Langdon and Frost essentially being in their first years you couldn't expect them to take the game on, although Frost has some good offensive legs on him when he decides to use them.

I'd love to see the guys mentioned above fit and firing to see what they can do, those are some blokes with serious pace and line breaking ability, along with us introducing some pace through our midfield (Freeman, Kennedy, Broomhead, Thomas, Crisp, Elliot, Varcoe and perhaps pick 5) we have the making of an exciting fast moving rebounding team, i personally think that's where we're moving towards and i think will be one of our major strengths in the coming years.

That's without mentioning Keeffe, Marsh, Toovey and Goldsack who all have above average pace for their heights (Marsh a freak in particular)

Footskills in the back half are certainly important, but until Shazza, Ox and Langdon get on the field and develop it's something we'll lack, but pace and athleticism certainly isn't.

Looking at Port they use their gut running and pace to force turnovers (2nd for tackles and 3rd for one percenters) before rebounding the ball in an unstoppable wave, their team effective disposal percentage is 71.2, the third worst in the comp (we're the second worst on 70.6) and they're first for clangers, but their running rebound style football (The most bounces in the league averaging 15.5 per game) covers that up, as we build our fitness base we'll build a similar style that will hopefully become much more effective, getting a full preseason out of most of our boys this preseason is the first promising step towards that.

 

[legendstatus]

Just so everyone knows Reid is a backmen and will be centre half back in 2015, hopefully this clears this up. Thanks.


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[Bring_Back_Brad]

Nathan Brown hasn't lived up to the hype since the Riewoldt job in the GF.

That's right, for one riewoldt is a big game choker, he's cracks under pressure and brown got a lot of credit for shutting him down when in truth anyone could have kept him quiet.
Since then he's done two acls and his shoulder again I can't really see him making that much of an impact again.

I don't want scharenberg in the back line, I'd like to see him developed as a fwd mid. He's got class and composure and natural skill, can apply that anywhere on the ground, we need that up forward more than anywhere else at the moment.

 

[Pleasedontfail11]

Just so everyone knows Reid is a backmen and will be centre half back in 2015, hopefully this clears this up. Thanks.


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But bucks told me he would be mostly in the forward line. God damn you Bucks why did you lie to me

 

[mike123]

I'll cop flak but i think we missed Sinclair a fair bit, the bloke towards the end of 2013 seemed to click, he was running the ball and doing it well.

We really, really missed that offensive running flair this year, Sinclair being injured, Seedsman missing half a year with a dodgy hip and Williams after his court case never quite got it together, Young looked quite good in parts but perhaps missing 2013 stuffed him around, couldn't pull a full season together. Langdon and Frost essentially being in their first years you couldn't expect them to take the game on, although Frost has some good offensive legs on him when he decides to use them.

I'd love to see the guys mentioned above fit and firing to see what they can do, those are some blokes with serious pace and line breaking ability, along with us introducing some pace through our midfield (Freeman, Kennedy, Broomhead, Thomas, Crisp, Elliot, Varcoe and perhaps pick 5) we have the making of an exciting fast moving rebounding team, i personally think that's where we're moving towards and i think will be one of our major strengths in the coming years.

That's without mentioning Keeffe, Marsh, Toovey and Goldsack who all have above average pace for their heights (Marsh a freak in particular)

Footskills in the back half are certainly important, but until Shazza, Ox and Langdon get on the field and develop it's something we'll lack, but pace and athleticism certainly isn't.

Looking at Port they use their gut running and pace to force turnovers (2nd for tackles and 3rd for one percenters) before rebounding the ball in an unstoppable wave, their team effective disposal percentage is 71.2, the third worst in the comp (we're the second worst on 70.6) and they're first for clangers, but their running rebound style football (The most bounces in the league averaging 15.5 per game) covers that up, as we build our fitness base we'll build a similar style that will hopefully become much more effective, getting a full preseason out of most of our boys this preseason is the first promising step towards that.

I think the player we missed most in the backline was Heath Shaw. Someone who can take the game on like Sinclair but could also hit targets.

 

[cleomenes]

2015 should see considerable changes to the back line. The difficulty is in seeing which of the many defenders we have will be in the best order in early April. The lack of support for Nathan brown here is surprising. Over the years, he has had very few goals kicked on him. He is a great long kick, but not good at hitting targets with those long ones. That is the only weakness in his game. Frost is similarly weak at passing the ball. Both players do not have the vision/perception to place the ball 50m ahead to where a team mate will be. Keeffe does have this ability, but is weaker one on one than the other two big guys. It will be rare for our opposition to have opponents for all three, but if Keeffe becomes the man for the resting ruck, and the other two are for key forwards, then i can see all three playing.
Toovey has to play. His pace, hardness, strength overhead and ability to close check are not equaled in our team. His passing is a negative, and is unlikely to change much, but if his confidence goes up, he will hit more targets.
Williams may be lost to the midfield, but is probably our best back pocket.
Sinclair can do the same job, and before injury this year, was showing a lot. He is a much better kick than most give him credit for.
Langdon may go to the midfield too, but he could become a great defender, not just a good one.
This is enough good players to fill the spots, but does not give us a good kick in first choice. It does not give us the brilliant anticipation and rebound that Shaw and O'brien (later Lumumba) provided in 2010 and 2011. The ones that might are Sinclair and Langdon, but to expect these two to make such huge steps is asking a lot.
We definitely have a good defence, but the rebound capacity of these players is not established. It will have to come from great improvement or new players.

Given our forward problems, and the presence of 3 big defenders, there is virtually no chance that Reid will play back if the list is injury free.