Beams, Wellingham, Sidebottom

[Bay Pie]

Beams=potential Simon Black. Maybe not quite as good disposal.No shame in that though.

Sidey=Potential Jimmy Bartel. Not quick by foot but plays quick through superior reading of the game.

Wellers=Not real sure but possible potential Nigel Lappin.Deceptively quick

While Wellers has done very, very well this year and would be top 3/5 in the Copeland, I have far greater faith that the other 2 have the potential to possibly reach the higher levels.

 

[mdc]

I get what you're saying lgarth, but...
a) I meant best game eventually, not to this point; you could certainly argue that Sidebottom's game is the best yet (I'm not sure I agree), but I'd certainly be disappointed if that benchmark isn't bested very soon by one of the trio.

b) How is Sidebottom supposed to model his game on Swan when Swan is one of the fastest/strongest mids in the league, and Sidebottom one of the slowest/puniest?

 

[TradeDraft]

If you havn't seen it

Steele Sidebottom TAC Cup GF

1st half: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gaOpbQjzgM
2nd half: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=II1bvZj6UuE
__________________

Those he Goal Kicking has been not that good in the AFL Those

 

[danielnajdek]

tough to rank those three but i'll go with
1. Sidebottom
2. Beams
3. Wellingham

 

[PieLebo87]

Geez its hard to do.

At the moment i'd rate it:
Wellingham
Beams
Sidebottom

However on potential i'd flip it right around and say:
Sidebottom
Beams
Wellingham

Exactly what Camo has said. On current form, it'd obviously be Wellers at 1, Beamer at 2 and Sidey at 3, but I'd do a complete flip around when it comes to potential.

An example of the future is the dying seconds of the Melbourne game when Sidebottom just ran and ran to save the game for the Magpies. People forget, if it wasn't for him, we'd be 3 and 2, not 4 and 1.

His stamina is greater than that of Licuria and Clarke, and that is a surreal attribute to have in today's AFL footballer, especially with the necessity to be able to run all day long. His disposal isn't below average, and his awareness, like his stamina is through the roof.

As has been mentioned before, we've just recruited Robert Harvey, but, dare I say it? With a better head on his shoulders. I think Steele Sidebottom is everything we'd want at the Collingwood FC club and I seriously hope he can just keep at it, and play over 300 games for the Magpies.

Dayne Beams, although playing better at the moment, doesn't quite have the scope for improvement that Hardarse has, but that doesn't mean he won't be twice or three times the player he is now in 2-3 years time.

Wellingham doesn't have as much scope for improvement as people think he does. Its disappointing the way people believe, and something I've grown out of recently, that just because a player has a breakout year, that they'll keep improving at the same rate, it very RARELY happens, so get it out of your systems. Just because he is having a great year, doesn't mean he will be better by 25% next year. Dale Thomas is a perfect example, he set such a high bar in his first year, that although he has been serviceable since, people classify him as a let down, because he hasn't continued improving that 15-20% a year since.

One way or another, all three will be integral parts of the Magpie engine room, and we couldn't really ask for a better group together with Pendlebury, Swan, Ball, Wellingham, Beams and Sidebottom, with the potential of McCarthy and McCaffer to join that group.

 

[mdc]

People don't think Wellingham will get better because he got better this year, they think he'll get better because he has every attribute an elite midfielder could want. The question has always been concentration and discipline, but this year has shown that he can do it for extended stretches.

The Thomas thing isn't really comparable because he was a flashy high draft pick, which is precisely the sort of player that people always over-rate early. Plus, Wellingham has gifts that Thomas could only dream of (although Thomas does have greater versatility).

 

[PieLebo87]

The only thing riding in his favour in that argument is that he has only played 30-odd AFL games, and he'll steadily improve until the 70-90 game mark, but for someone thats turning 22, I just don't think there is that great a scope for improvement. What we're seeing this year, is what we'll get, with an extra 4-5 possession a game average. I don't see him turning into an elite midfielder. Elite midfielders turn games, Wellingham won't be a game-turner.

 

[Jonno_]

Wellingham doesn't have as much scope for improvement as people think he does. Its disappointing the way people believe, and something I've grown out of recently, that just because a player has a breakout year, that they'll keep improving at the same rate, it very RARELY happens, so get it out of your systems. Just because he is having a great year, doesn't mean he will be better by 25% next year. Dale Thomas is a perfect example, he set such a high bar in his first year, that although he has been serviceable since, people classify him as a let down, because he hasn't continued improving that 15-20% a year since.

I really used to dislike Wellingham. I thought yeh, he can break lines, but so can Jaxson Barham. He seemed soft, unwilling to put his body on the line. This is all fine of course, if you have the disposal of someone like Dids. But Wellingham's disposal is no where near as effective as Didaks, though still good.

This year he has been the number one clearance player at Collingwood in every single game except one, where he was just a clearance off. He has found an ability to extract the ball, and hunt it. He seems like a totally different player. Surely he has the ability to improve in his new found role.

The extremely positive thing is how divided this forum is in splitting Sidebottom, Beams and Wellingham. It is incredibly difficult to split and shows the eveness and talent of the group, and can only be a long term positive.

 

[PieLebo87]

I really used to dislike Wellingham. I thought yeh, he can break lines, but so can Jaxson Barham. He seemed soft, unwilling to put his body on the line. This is all fine of course, if you have the disposal of someone like Dids. But Wellingham's disposal is no where near as effective as Didaks, though still good.

This year he has been the number one clearance player at Collingwood in every single game except one, where he was just a clearance off. He has found an ability to extract the ball, and hunt it. He seems like a totally different player. Surely he has the ability to improve in his new found role.

The extremely positive thing is how divided this forum is in splitting Sidebottom, Beams and Wellingham. It is incredibly difficult to split and shows the eveness and talent of the group, and can only be a long term positive.

 

[Dundalis]

So basically I was right, a lot of Collingwood supporters do have a love bug for Sidebottom, just like they did with Dale Thomas.

AFAIC it's the same situation. Everyone talked about how good Thomas was going to be, how he would bulk up put on weight add the strength and become James Hird.

Well he's 22 going on 23, and despite having a very good season, he's far from our most influential. In fact both Beams and Wellingham have been more influential than he has.

It's the same with Sidebottom. Apparently he's going to be Jimmy Bartel. Despite not being able to kick pin point 65 metres like Bartel can (accurate 50 metre at best), nor even having the body type. Bartel is 6'2 with a pretty good frame (i.e despite possibly being skinny when he started he had the frame to grow into), while Sidebottom is pushing 5'11 with a pretty narrow frame.

Apparently he's going to be Robert Harvey, or an even better version. Despite having nowhere near the strength through the lower body. Harvey is possibly the strongest player on his feet to ever play the game, Ablett and Chapman are fantastic in that respect today, but Harvey was the master. There is no way known Sidebottom will ever develop that, Harvey had it when he started as a 15 year old with his massive thighs. I don't see Sidebottom developing a huge amount of strength, because I see his body type as similar to Dale Thomas, whom has barely developed at all. He's certainly thicker than Thomas was at the same age, but not by a great deal.

Another comment about him having superior awareness to Pendles. He's nowhere near it. He still get tackled rather easily, and is easily taken to ground, but he does often get possession away before hand. He's very composed under pressure in his disposal, but that's different.

So many attributes being thrown his way that he hasn't shown, nor even shows the potential for, and as with Dale Thomas when he got drafted, I don't understand the euphoria.

To the person who thinks Wellingham's future development is limited (PieLebo87), that is ridiculous. If anything his potential development is greater than either Sidebottom or Beams despite being older. The reason he was a rookie pick, and likely has taken so long to come good, is most likely similar to why someone like Dean Cox was also a rookie listed player, or a number of other players who were not highly rated in the draft and came through to become stars. He's a player who clearly lacked the motivation and dedication, as many teenage kids do, to make himself the best player he could be.

But the underlining fact regarding his potential is not how long it's taken him to come good, it's what he's always possessed that is now being used correctly. He's a far superior athlete, with better hands than either of the other two players. He has all the qualities you want to see in a modern day footballer and then some. And his concentration levels are improving. If he had started out with the level of commitment he's currently showing he would have been a top 3 pick.

Sidebottom and Beams started out with that level of commitment. They can improve skillwise, but that aren't going to improve athletically, other than to get a bit stronger. Wellingham already has all the unteachable skills in abundance. The only thing he needs to improve on, which he is already showing he can is his concentration levels and decision making. Both have improved out of sight in the last 2 years, so no reason why that won't continue. Ultimately the reason I rate him so highly (and pretty much have since his first season) is because he has IMO more weapons to hurt the opposition with than any other midfielder on our list. He just needs to continue to develop the maturity to make use of them all. To those who say he is only an average kick, I strongly disagree. He is at times a dodgy decision maker. However even this has improved immeasurably over the last year. When he picks the right target, he is IMO a far more damaging kick than Sidebottom, he can quickly let off low flat bullets.

I have to say MDC is the only poster I agree with so far. One of the reasons I started this thread was to see how far the Sidebottom love in really went, obviously it goes pretty deep.

 

[Avni]

Gee these three excite me. This year they have taken their game to a new level. Wonder if the great Bucks has anything to do with their improvement

Wellingham has impressed me the most out of three. The ability to hunt his own ball, his composure and his line breaking pace. Exactly what we needed.

 

[Zahki]

Dundalis, Sidebottom is the youngest of the three, as others have pointed out. It's really no surprise that Beams and Wellingham look better right now. Regardless, Sidebottom was BOG and an integral part of winning a final last year, neither Beams or Wellingham have done that yet (granted Beams wasn't given the chance). I think it's more than reasonable to expect big things for him given the kid is only 19.

As for Dale Thomas, look at him now. It's taken him a fair while to click, but he's finally playing good consistent footy. He's now another strong addition to the team and yet another feather in our overflowing midfield cap. He could be worth the 2nd pick yet.

 

[magpiewarrior]

Whilst I am a huge fan of all 3 this year the only one of the 3 that I have seen shirk physical contact is Wellingham (admittedly not this year) but last year in several high pressure games he looked like Rhys Shaw in the 03 GF. Scared s**tless, avoiding any contact and basically just ditching the ball as fast as possible if he thought anyone was coming at him. His effort in fromt of Hall has me hopeful that he has got past this but in my mind the jury is still out as yet.

 

[Jonno_]

So basically I was right, a lot of Collingwood supporters do have a love bug for Sidebottom, just like they did with Dale Thomas.

AFAIC it's the same situation. Everyone talked about how good Thomas was going to be, how he would bulk up put on weight add the strength and become James Hird.

Well he's 22 going on 23, and despite having a very good season, he's far from our most influential. In fact both Beams and Wellingham have been more influential than he has.

It's the same with Sidebottom. Apparently he's going to be Jimmy Bartel. Despite not being able to kick pin point 65 metres like Bartel can (accurate 50 metre at best), nor even having the body type. Bartel is 6'2 with a pretty good frame (i.e despite possibly being skinny when he started he had the frame to grow into), while Sidebottom is pushing 5'11 with a pretty narrow frame.

Apparently he's going to be Robert Harvey, or an even better version. Despite having nowhere near the strength through the lower body. Harvey is possibly the strongest player on his feet to ever play the game, Ablett and Chapman are fantastic in that respect today, but Harvey was the master. There is no way known Sidebottom will ever develop that, Harvey had it when he started as a 15 year old with his massive thighs. I don't see Sidebottom developing a huge amount of strength, because I see his body type as similar to Dale Thomas, whom has barely developed at all. He's certainly thicker than Thomas was at the same age, but not by a great deal.

Another comment about him having superior awareness to Pendles. He's nowhere near it. He still get tackled rather easily, and is easily taken to ground, but he does often get possession away before hand. He's very composed under pressure in his disposal, but that's different.

So many attributes being thrown his way that he hasn't shown, nor even shows the potential for, and as with Dale Thomas when he got drafted, I don't understand the euphoria.

Lol what? Maybe you watch a different Sidebottom to me, but he has an very low centre of gravity. One of the lowest at the club, and very rarely do I see him get flung to the ground.

He lacks strength at the moment, but he certainly has a frame to grow into and will bulk up. He is no daisy. Look at photos of Jimmy when he was younger, they look remarkably similar.

He is also only 19 and 3 months of something, still very very young. Rarely wastes the ball, and hence it doesn't matter if he can pinpoint a 65 metre pass, how many can. Robert Harvey never could.

I'm not saying he will, but to write a 19 year old kid who has showed plenty of promise off at this age, and when he has showed us what he could potentially be, is ridiculous.

 

[TradeDraft]

I have to say MDC is the only poster I agree with so far. One of the reasons I started this thread was to see how far the Sidebottom love in really went, obviously it goes pretty deep.

All Right Why don't you rate Steele very low and what kind of player do you think he be then

 

[chappo52]

I have to say MDC is the only poster I agree with so far. One of the reasons I started this thread was to see how far the Sidebottom love in really went, obviously it goes pretty deep.

Why wouldn't the love run deep for him?
He has pretty much sewn up a first 22 spot in the first few games this year, he runs hard and all day(holds the 3km record at the club) and never gives up. he makes the right decisions and uses the ball well, he may not have the longest kick but he knows his limitations. He has been a game saver already this year.

We shouldnt be comparing him to the greats, its not fair on him. he will be steele sidebottom and all we can hope is that in 5-10 years time people will be hoping that their next great hope will be as good as him.
For mine he has a determination to be the best he can and that is all we can ask, sit back and enjoy it.

 

[Dundalis]

Dundalis, Sidebottom is the youngest of the three, as others have pointed out. It's really no surprise that Beams and Wellingham look better right now. Regardless, Sidebottom was BOG and an integral part of winning a final last year, neither Beams or Wellingham have done that yet (granted Beams wasn't given the chance). I think it's more than reasonable to expect big things for him given the kid is only 19.

As for Dale Thomas, look at him now. It's taken him a fair while to click, but he's finally playing good consistent footy. He's now another strong addition to the team and yet another feather in our overflowing midfield cap. He could be worth the 2nd pick yet.

So what? I hear the line "bottom aged" trotted out with regularity, and I think it's a useless comment. Bottom aged means **** all. It's all about talent. Sidebottom has many useful abilities, but he also lacks many unteachable tools. The age they are at makes no difference. Sidebottom could be getting 8 touches a game, but if he was tall, showed pace and athleticism and could kick 60 metres, I'd say there's a good chance he was going to be a superstar because of the talent he displays, regardless of how good or bad he is playing or how old he is (obviously getting 8 touches at 28 years old is a bad sign, but that's going to extremes).

The performance by Sidebottom in the final was great, but again it doesn't make a massive difference. It means he's going to be a good Collingwood player, but plenty of young players have played well in Finals and not gone on to be superstars. Again it all comes down to talent. You can't play above your talent level. And predicting a player is definately going to develop this or that bears no weight.

Dale Thomas was James Hird mark II after he got drafted. He's playing well now, but IMO he's a superior version of David Wojincksi. He's no superstar, and will never be anything close to James Hird. He's just a good player. Like Sidebottom will be.

Lol what? Maybe you watch a different Sidebottom to me, but he has an very low centre of gravity. One of the lowest at the club, and very rarely do I see him get flung to the ground.

He lacks strength at the moment, but he certainly has a frame to grow into and will bulk up. He is no daisy. Look at photos of Jimmy when he was younger, they look remarkably similar.

He is also only 19 and 3 months of something, still very very young. Rarely wastes the ball, and hence it doesn't matter if he can pinpoint a 65 metre pass, how many can. Robert Harvey never could.

I'm not saying he will, but to write a 19 year old kid who has showed plenty of promise off at this age, and when he has showed us what he could potentially be, is ridiculous.

We must be then. I've seen Sidebottom taken down and taken down quite easily, but usually to his credit he has successfully disposed of the ball as or just before getting tackled. He's so far from Robert Harvey in that regard it's not funny. In fact I don't even think he's near a young Ablett in terms of lower body strength.

All Right Why don't you rate Steele very low and what kind of player do you think he be then

I think I explained it pretty clearly in the very first post of this thread.

 

[Dundalis]

Why wouldn't the love run deep for him?
He has pretty much sewn up a first 22 spot in the first few games this year, he runs hard and all day(holds the 3km record at the club) and never gives up. he makes the right decisions and uses the ball well, he may not have the longest kick but he knows his limitations. He has been a game saver already this year.

We shouldnt be comparing him to the greats, its not fair on him. he will be steele sidebottom and all we can hope is that in 5-10 years time people will be hoping that their next great hope will be as good as him.
For mine he has a determination to be the best he can and that is all we can ask, sit back and enjoy it.

I agree with all of that. Except the part about the next great hope. He'll be a good player. Perhaps even a very good player. But there's no need to talk him up like the next Bartel or Harvey when he clearly doesn't have the talent to live up to it.

 

[TradeDraft]

I think I explained it pretty clearly in the very first post of this thread.

Read It,

You don't need to be a Speedster who can break the Lines to be a Gun.

You don't need to kick Pin Point Passes over 40 Meters to be a gun

 

[3066]

Those he Goal Kicking has been not that good in the AFL Those

Yoda? is that you?

 

[Zahki]

I think I liked this thread better when it was a good discussion about our 3 young talents and not ripping Sidebottom a new one for being a talentless hack.

 

[prestiforbrownlow]

I've always been a beams man, simply because i love the way he plays his footy, hard in and under. Very much in the vain of lke ball in his best games, however beams seems a much better user of the footy when he does get free.

Sidebottom has the ability to be anything, from a goalkicking half foward to midfield to running defender. i think he would be best suited to a role like colin sylvia. playing tall and small on a wing or half foward.

Wellingham is the most exciting at this stage, has been super impressive this year. Hard around the stopages and comfortable when he gets clear. I agree with the early posts saying he could turn into a Daniel kerr.

my order at the moment
Beams
Wellingham
Sidebottom

 

[Frankie23]

To be honest, all 3 have the potential to be elite.

What I am looking forward to is our powerhouse middle in 3-4 years time, we could have the AFL's new Fab 5; Pendlebury, Thomas, Beams, Sidebottom and Wellingham

Beams provides the grunt of the midfield, Pendles the elite extractor, Sidebottom the workhorse type, Wellingham who can win his own ball and yet provides so much pace, and Thomas who provides flair as well as hard running.

However all can tackle and provide relentless pressure, all have engines, they can all win inside and outside ball and overall the skill level of those 5 players is exceptional.

Coupled with Swanny who will still be in fair knick and other recruits who may come along, that will be a future powerhouse middle I have little doubt about it.

 

[Dundalis]

I think I liked this thread better when it was a good discussion about our 3 young talents and not ripping Sidebottom a new one for being a talentless hack.

Another issue I have with certain sections of Collingwood support. If you aren't bigging up a kid to be a superstar, you are obviously calling them a talentless hack. I haven't said anything of the sort, and neither has anyone else in the thread. I'm just being realistic about the talent we have. But apparently every Collingwood kid that comes through is a superstar of the future, and anything said differently is blasphemy.

Read It,

You don't need to be a Speedster who can break the Lines to be a Gun.

You don't need to kick Pin Point Passes over 40 Meters to be a gun

Yep. But you can not have those things and be just a good player, ala Lockyer, O'Bree etc. Basically the less weapons you do have in your locker, the less likely you are to be a great player.

And the players used in comparison to Sidebottom all have a multitude of talents Sidebottom simply doesn't possess.

 

[Bay Pie]

Another issue I have with certain sections of Collingwood support. If you aren't bigging up a kid to be a superstar, you are obviously calling them a talentless hack. I haven't said anything of the sort, and neither has anyone else in the thread. I'm just being realistic about the talent we have. But apparently every Collingwood kid that comes through is a superstar of the future, and anything said differently is blasphemy.

And the players used in comparison to Sidebottom all have a multitude of talents Sidebottom simply doesn't possess.

Doesn't possess yet. If you don't think a 19 year old kid will be stronger in a contest and kick the ball further after a few more pre-seasons, you don't know shit from clay.

You are comparing Sidey, to Bartel and Harvey at the peak of their powers. I personally don't see alot of Harvey in Sidey, but once he fills out, and he will (different physique all together then Daisy whose taller and rangier) you'll see those 50 to 55m passes. Not many players can kick 65m accurately, I can't remember ever seeing Bartel do that. I'm not saying he'll be a superstar but he'll be a bloody good player at a minimum. Have a look at the size of Bartel when he was drafted. Very similar.

Sidey is very dual sided, good mark for his size, has elite endurance already, can read the game and can play inside and outside. Granted he is not quick with leg speed, but he plays quick with his reading of the game and decision making. I've seen him do this many times and he's only in his 2nd year. Whether he becomes as good as Bartel is another matter but I wouldn't say he'll be another O'Bree or Lockyer this early.