Ben Cousins

[saj_21]

He did a lot of long runs often in open space and looked quite mercurial at times but I remember him more for that than general team play. His disposal was great and he worked his ass off and he was a champ but I just got the feeling that his best footy didn't involve team play (link work) very often.

As for being the best leader, well what can I say - I'll take Judd any day of the week over Cousins... in all sense of the word "leader".

He was the link player, he was a freak runner i dnt think i ever seen a bloke run as hard, as fast and for as long as he did. To say he was an individual player is stupid, he had grouse skills why wouldnt you get the ball into his hands, and the fact he could run everywhere may of gave you the deception that he was a individual footballer.

Not many players become captain if they are individuals, with Pavlich being the exception.

 

[RandB]

He was the link player

IMO his best work was not quick interactive play with other players. Simon Black is one player who comes to mind who can link with any other players in any situation. Cousins was more of a burster.

he was a freak runner i dnt think i ever seen a bloke run as hard, as fast and for as long as he did.

I certainly agree with that he was a gun, we all know that.

To say he was an individual player is stupid, he had grouse skills why wouldnt you get the ball into his hands, and the fact he could run everywhere may of gave you the deception that he was a individual footballer.

I never said he didn't have great skills, more to the point you could argue that the Eagles had quite a few players that played as individuals and with Cousins, at his best it was the burst play and running he did that made him a gun.

Not many players become captain if they are individuals, with Pavlich being the exception.

IMO out and out talent got Cousins the captaincy but that is just speculation I admit. Judd did a better job of captaincy IMO and losing Cousins as Captain didn't hurt them one bit. Don't misconstrue me as saying Cousins was a "selfish" player because I don't mean that at all.

 

[McLean_4_Captain]

IMO out and out talent got Cousins the captaincy but that is just speculation I admit. Judd did a better job of captaincy IMO and losing Cousins as Captain didn't hurt them one bit. Don't misconstrue me as saying Cousins was a "selfish" player because I don't mean that at all.

I think people are confusing you calling cousins individualistic as you saying he was selfish & played for himself, when as i see it, you meant that cousins at his best was when he did things himself, like streaming down the wing, as opposed to team players like mitchell who are at their best on the bottom of the pack.


BUT, i disagree with saying that losing cousins as captain didnt hurt them. When Judd became captain, the first year he was captain in title only. On field, cousins was still the man giving the rev up's in the huddle before the game, the man they looked to for inspiration when they were F__ in the last 1/4 because he would still be busting his gut, etc.

You can discipline a player by removing the captaincy, but you cant automatically transfer that respect to the next captain, it took judd time, with cousins out of the team to gain the respect.

By removing the captaincy from cousins, WC fed the culture of "we can do whatever we want cause we're awesome", because they still treated him as captain on field despite the club trying to punish him, and that hurt the eagles to no end.

 

[wce4premiership]

He did a lot of long runs often in open space and looked quite mercurial at times but I remember him more for that than general team play. His disposal was great and he worked his ass off and he was a champ but I just got the feeling that his best footy didn't involve team play (link work) very often.

As for being the best leader, well what can I say - I'll take Judd any day of the week over Cousins... in all sense of the word "leader".

Judd was never the leader cousins was trust me. Cousins would lift everyone unlike judd. What you said about cousins not being the link man is actually my opinion of judd. He always got given the ball, players like stenglien and even cousins would block for him then he'd go for a run. Cousins often handballed while drawing a player then shepharding afterwards.

Judd did however tackle more then cousins, I don't really know why but perhaps his pace and the fact he was in close a lot.

 

[wce4premiership]

He was a great runner and stood out when other teams weren't as good in the middle but I doubt he would stand out as much now. He may be handy as an extra midfielder for a team with experienced players to bump them up a bit. Don't take this the wrong way but in his premiership year I personally have no doubt that recreational activities enhanced his on field ability - just an opinion.

Now that is funny. What is the point in speculating about AA especially when you think he would rest up forward (presumably because he is 31 next year?)

He often played the hff for us and got 2 AA nominations out of it why not now?

Also you say you don't think he'd stand out unless he was in a team with experienced players but what about 2000-2003 when he was a lone hand?

One more thing. In an article i read it stated cousins told worsfold he could stay clean throughout the season but made no promises after that. I believe he would never have played that good had he been doing it mid-season.

 

[wce4premiership]

IMO out and out talent got Cousins the captaincy but that is just speculation I admit. Judd did a better job of captaincy IMO and losing Cousins as Captain didn't hurt them one bit. Don't misconstrue me as saying Cousins was a "selfish" player because I don't mean that at all.

Judd never was captain though that's the thing. So all this credit you're giving to judd's capaincy is actually ben's later years as the leader.

From 2004 onwards he really was the sole leader of the club.

Also sorry about all the posts but cousins is my favourite player and i watched him very closely. I don't know how to multi quote either

 

[Crimson Azure]

The real question is; will he be a chance of playing in our next flag?

If not then why bother, if yes then worth considering. Don't think it will happen though.

I also has a friend who says categorically that he is being paid money by the Collingwood FC & plans to play for them next year.

He has also been seen at some recent Collingwood functions.

 

[kp junior]

He was the link player, he was a freak runner i dnt think i ever seen a bloke run as hard, as fast and for as long as he did. To say he was an individual player is stupid, he had grouse skills why wouldnt you get the ball into his hands, and the fact he could run everywhere may of gave you the deception that he was a individual footballer.

Not many players become captain if they are individuals, with Pavlich being the exception.

Have you been listening to Grant Thomas??
Bagging a super star beacause you don't have one is loser talk.

 

[Supermercado]

The real question is; will he be a chance of playing in our next flag?

The future grandchildren of our list aren't a chance of playing in our next flag

 

[RandB]

He often played the hff for us and got 2 AA nominations out of it why not now?

Also you say you don't think he'd stand out unless he was in a team with experienced players but what about 2000-2003 when he was a lone hand?

One more thing. In an article i read it stated cousins told worsfold he could stay clean throughout the season but made no promises after that. I believe he would never have played that good had he been doing it mid-season.

I said he stood out when the opposition wasn't as good. You only have to look at teams like the Bulldogs this year to see how even middle of the road players have lifted to 2008 football. What I am saying is that Cousins was a stand out player back then. He could still be useful for a team now that has a good line up, if a team like Collingwood played him now and used him right he could be damaging but not in the same way he used to be.

I've always said that this is just my opinion. The root of this thread though is about Cousins to Melbourne and I still believe Judd is more a leader than Cousins. You make a fair point that Cousins did do a lot of the rev ups with the team while Judd was the official captain but that isn't the be all end all of leadership. Judd was/is a proffessional in every aspect of the game including how he treats his body and the game itself.

 

[RandB]

Judd never was captain though that's the thing. So all this credit you're giving to judd's capaincy is actually ben's later years as the leader.

From 2004 onwards he really was the sole leader of the club.

Also sorry about all the posts but cousins is my favourite player and i watched him very closely. I don't know how to multi quote either

We could argue about this all day, I concede you would know about your club more than I but don't under estimate why they made Judd the captain in the first place.

 

[RandB]

I think people are confusing you calling cousins individualistic as you saying he was selfish & played for himself, when as i see it, you meant that cousins at his best was when he did things himself, like streaming down the wing, as opposed to team players like mitchell who are at their best on the bottom of the pack.


BUT, i disagree with saying that losing cousins as captain didnt hurt them. When Judd became captain, the first year he was captain in title only. On field, cousins was still the man giving the rev up's in the huddle before the game, the man they looked to for inspiration when they were F__ in the last 1/4 because he would still be busting his gut, etc.

You can discipline a player by removing the captaincy, but you cant automatically transfer that respect to the next captain, it took judd time, with cousins out of the team to gain the respect.

By removing the captaincy from cousins, WC fed the culture of "we can do whatever we want cause we're awesome", because they still treated him as captain on field despite the club trying to punish him, and that hurt the eagles to no end.

Again, it is just an opinion but I think giving Judd the mantle sent a message to the team that professionalism was the highest priority. It isn't like they lost Cousins' impact as a player and as the other dude said he still did rev ups to the team. Judd and Cousins are 2 different types of players and ideally the WCE would have had Judd as their captain for another 6 or 7 years if they could have kept him. Judd was their future as the club wanted to turn alot of things around. Of course not everything happens overnight.

I don't really understand your second point, by your rationale it would have been even worse if they kept him as captain as he disgraced himself and the club.

 

[McLean_4_Captain]

Again, it is just an opinion but I think giving Judd the mantle sent a message to the team that professionalism was the highest priority. It isn't like they lost Cousins' impact as a player and as the other dude said he still did rev ups to the team. Judd and Cousins are 2 different types of players and ideally the WCE would have had Judd as their captain for another 6 or 7 years if they could have kept him. Judd was their future as the club wanted to turn alot of things around. Of course not everything happens overnight.

The point was that judd wasn't ready to be captain at that point, they would've been better served, in a WC perfect world, to still have cousins playing & Judd becoming captain this year or next, he still could've been a 7-9 year captain.

I'm not saying that he didnt do a good job of it, just that in the first year, cousins was still the captain on the field in every aspect but title and this was shown, even by the coach by putting cousins up on the podium with judd with the premiership trophy.

I don't really understand your second point, by your rationale it would have been even worse if they kept him as captain as he disgraced himself and the club.

I wasn't particularly clear with that 2nd point. Cousins put WC in a lose-lose situation, a massive catch 22, the administration had no option but to remove the captaincy from him, but at that point he was so respected as a leader of the club that the players effectively refused to let them take the captaincy away from him.

So either they didnt punish him and let the spoilt players have their way & kept him as captain or they remove the captaincy and the players say f__ you and treat him like he's still the captain anyway. You said they were trying to send a message, but the players just ignored it, even the coach did

I don't know how else they could've handle it, but the culture that had already developed by that stage, after the taxi-gate incident, they were pretty much always going to end up screwed and look at them now.

 

[RandB]

The point was that judd wasn't ready to be captain at that point, they would've been better served, in a WC perfect world, to still have cousins playing & Judd becoming captain this year or next, he still could've been a 7-9 year captain.

I'm not saying that he didnt do a good job of it, just that in the first year, cousins was still the captain on the field in every aspect but title and this was shown, even by the coach by putting cousins up on the podium with judd with the premiership trophy.



I wasn't particularly clear with that 2nd point. Cousins put WC in a lose-lose situation, a massive catch 22, the administration had no option but to remove the captaincy from him, but at that point he was so respected as a leader of the club that the players effectively refused to let them take the captaincy away from him.

So either they didnt punish him and let the spoilt players have their way & kept him as captain or they remove the captaincy and the players say f__ you and treat him like he's still the captain anyway. You said they were trying to send a message, but the players just ignored it, even the coach did

I don't know how else they could've handle it, but the culture that had already developed by that stage, after the taxi-gate incident, they were pretty much always going to end up screwed and look at them now.

I here you mate, but at the end of the day they won a premiership with Judd as captain so in fairness demoting Cousins didn't hurt them as much as has been said in this thread. Your point of a perfect world is kind of stating the obvious though. Cousins essentially pissed the captaincy up against the wall with the way he acted. If they kept him as captain they would have been in even more shite now than otherwise. I also think that Judd handled the captaincy in a very mature way in his 1st year. The fact that Cousins was allowed to continue an on ground vocal roll amongst the group is more undermining Judd's roll than helping him IMO.

Tieing this all in with Melbourne I don't see how a 31 year old (next year) will make a hell of a lot of difference to our midfield or forwards. They wouldn't learn that much from Cousins playing with them now. We have a coach and support staff to teach them. Sure if Cousins was in his prime he would rub off on other players but he would play a more customised roll with a team if they picked him up now. Apparently Malthouse has had a few talks with Cousins and as the Pies are entering their window he could be a handy player but Melbourne are rebuilding. We trade Johnston who was (whether people like it or not) one of our better players and he is 27 this year. One of the main reasons we trade him is due to off field issues. The fact Brisbane traded for him is testament that he is still a good player. This was also in the name of rebuilding. Now people want to get Cousins who is 31 next year, makes Johnston look like a saint and would play assumably a limited roll in the middle due to his age and the pace of the game and we are supposedly in a rebuilding phase... I don't see the point. Fair enough we picked up a draft pick for TJ and Cousins could be free in the PSD but so what, where are our priorities for the future.

 

[McLean_4_Captain]

I here you mate, but at the end of the day they won a premiership with Judd as captain so in fairness demoting Cousins didn't hurt them as much as has been said in this thread. Your point of a perfect world is kind of stating the obvious though. Cousins essentially pissed the captaincy up against the wall with the way he acted. If they kept him as captain they would have been in even more shite now than otherwise. I also think that Judd handled the captaincy in a very mature way in his 1st year. The fact that Cousins was allowed to continue an on ground vocal roll amongst the group is more undermining Judd's roll than helping him IMO.

Its true that it undermined judd's role as captain, but that can't be blamed on cousins, it more a testament to him that the players were so dedicated.

Yes they still won a premiership, but with cousins still on the park, assuming official or otherwise, the role of captain. Would they have still won it without him in the side? without his leadership? We'll never know

I dont disagree with the fact that cousins will be a bandaid, but sometimes its worth putting a bandaid on a axe wound. Not all fans have the long term perspective that you have, so if cousins turns us from 6 wins next year to 9, then that'll give the less dedicated fans some hope.

And as much as people like to slag off the bandwagon jumpers, we need every single one of them, and the longer we spend wallowing in the doldrums, the longer they take to slowing trust melbourne will be a chance and the longer they take to start giving money to the club again.


But more importantly, its relevant but slightly off topic, are we heading towards a similar leadership crisis? With the only McLean & Jones showing any leadership qualities but both don't seem mature enough to assume the role. With Neita gone, our leadership looks pretty dire

 

[RandB]

Would they have still won it without him in the side? without his leadership? We'll never know

Well obviously without him in the team (full stop) they would have struggled. Without him "assuming" the mantle we will never know I agree but to say that Judd would not have stepped up fully as captain is not fair on Judd. Cousins simply basked in the culture of the team.

I dont disagree with the fact that cousins will be a bandaid, but sometimes its worth putting a bandaid on a axe wound. Not all fans have the long term perspective that you have, so if cousins turns us from 6 wins next year to 9, then that'll give the less dedicated fans some hope.

I agree that we need supporters/members and getting Cousins may not hurt in that department (good point) but I still beleive it goes against the direction we are (apparently) taking as a team. Also the guy obviously has no respect for proffessionality or process. Not just a band aid but a short-term bandaid who will soak up any funds we have free in the salary cap - don't forget that.

But more importantly, its relevant but slightly off topic, are we heading towards a similar leadership crisis? With the only McLean & Jones showing any leadership qualities but both don't seem mature enough to assume the role. With Neita gone, our leadership looks pretty dire

We possibly are heading for a leadership crisis and we'll have many young players next year. Getting Cousins wouldn't change any of this IMO - if that is what you were getting at. We have to look within for strength and the club really needs to get through this year before making any huge decisions with respect to that.

 

[MicksterD]

Welcome To The Rand-mclean Thread! :d:d

 

[RandB]

Welcome To The Rand-mclean Thread! :d:d

lol fair enough Mickster , we have stolen the podium a bit but at least it is refreshing that two different posters can disagree through constructive debate instead of childish bitching and stupid thoughtless comments. Not saying that there aren't some other decent posters out there mind you.

 

[Xsess]

Unbelievably - he was still very much at the very top of his game last year. It's no coincidence that in 07 WCE's season immediately righted upon his return then faltered again when his hammie went. Has 2-4 years left and would add enormously to any club.

Many Eagle supporters are still absolutely filthy with the clubs administration for their weakness in sacking him.

 

[eliasd82]

Cousins is one of the best leaders in the afl.

Actually i can't think of a better one now that voss, hird and rucciouto are gone.

You have got to be kidding me.... He was captain and threw that away due to stupidity and then left West Coast High and dry due to more stupidity and a drug addiction... muppet!!!

Great player, hardly a leader....
Leaders lead by example... what kind of example has he set for the youngsters of that club..