Bottom Tier

[EddieMurphy]

Are we really down on the bottom tier with the Demons and GWS?

Why don't half our veterans give the effort that the Cats and Swans veterans give?

How did we get there so quickly?

 

[Coconut_twirl]

There was a number of factors at play here - veterans in the twilight of their career, losing close matches at start of the year (Suns, Pies, Swans, Tigers), Goddard leaving and many players down on form and confidence.

The Saints are bottom four, but still ahead of the umcompetitive GWS and Demons.

 

[lemons123]

Is it safe to say we wouldn't be in this position if we'd kept Ross Lyon?
Not a dig at Watters, hes still a very inexperienced coach. I couldnt see us falling this low under Lyon.

 

[Present Not Past]

Apparently, according to Scott, we need to recruit. You get the best picks in the draft, down the bottom of the ladder. Maybe some trading for top draft picks as well is in store for us.

 

[mysainters]

Is it safe to say we wouldn't be in this position if we'd kept Ross Lyon?
Not a dig at Watters, hes still a very inexperienced coach. I couldnt see us falling this low under Lyon.

I think we would of have, hence why he left.

 

[saintsrfreak]

Is it safe to say we wouldn't be in this position if we'd kept Ross Lyon?
Not a dig at Watters, hes still a very inexperienced coach. I couldnt see us falling this low under Lyon.

Probably not, we'd still be playing Blake, Kosi and Jones though.

 

[Present Not Past]

Is it safe to say we wouldn't be in this position if we'd kept Ross Lyon?
Not a dig at Watters, hes still a very inexperienced coach. I couldnt see us falling this low under Lyon.

Ross is not interested in being at a club that is not in a position to win a flag. If he ever finds himself in this position, he simply breaks and runs - to the nearest million dollar contract.

 

[CHBench]

Why don't half our veterans give the effort that the Cats and Swans veterans give?

Premiership medallions, IMHO.


*Not saying that applies to all the older players.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Apparently, according to Scott, we need to recruit. You get the best picks in the draft, down the bottom of the ladder. Maybe some trading for top draft picks as well is in store for us.

That's all well and good, if that's what he is still saying, but I want to hear about what he is going to do to get the best out of what he has got to work with right now. Not what he plans to do when he has a "perfect" list to work with, in a couple of years time.

Anyone could probably coach a perfect list with no holes in it, but it takes real talent and guts to get the best out of a list that isn't perfect and that is struggling. To talk about what we don't have is a cop-out and avoids the pressing issue at hand, which is to get the best out of what we do have at the moment, which is all you've ever got to work with.

What we dished up today, especially in the first half, was just utter tripe and not even remotely good enough, inexperienced list or not, especially with regards to our intensity and passion and effort and it was far from the first time we've been crap for a chunk, or most of a game, this year. It was pathetic.

If North had been so inclined they could have wiped the floor with us, GWS-style, but thankfully their intensity dropped right off for much of the 2nd half, as they had done what they needed to do, like what happened when we played Essendon a few weeks ago. I think either of those teams could have beaten us by 100 points if they'd really wanted to badly enough. A 100 point loss (or a loss to Melbourne, which is just as bad) is just around the corner though, if we keep going like this.

How did we get there so quickly?

There are a whole host of reasons, but to just continue on with what I said above, I do believe strongly that Scott has been sending a very poor message (especially to the playing group) by constantly talking about what we need to recruit at the end of the year and so on, which almost sends a message to everyone at the club (including the playing group) that this year is a write-off, or that it doesn't really matter/that there isn't much point to it, because we don't have this and that and that we're not going to be good enough as we are (which is a terrible message to send) and that we'll be good again when we have this and this and that, sometime down the track, and some in the team are probably wondering why we're even bothering in the meantime, when the one coaching the team seems to be looking way off into the future, with some hypothetical team that he hopes to have, rather than focusing on the present and giving it all his focus and attention for the time being and dealing with the future at the appropriate time (when we get there, if we get there).

Trades and so on will take care of themselves later in the year, we don't need to be thinking and talking about them now, especially in public. Does anyone reckon that a Ross Lyon, Paul Roos, Alistair Clarkson or Mick Malthouse would ever be frequently talking about what they are going to be doing at the trade table at the end of the year, as early as the first few rounds of a season? I reckon it sends a very poor message and shows that your eye is not really on the ball at the present time. The better ones would be looking for every way to make it work with what they have and IF they still need this, this and that, at the end of the year, then they'll look to address those needs at that time.

I think that is a big part of the reason why we have dropped off so much, so alarmingly quickly, because just 12 months ago we were extremely competitive with pretty much every team in the comp, even when we were badly hit with injuries (no Mac in the ruck, Stanley injured as well, making us weaker in both the ruck and the forward line, Kosi playing ruck, further weakening our forward line and ruck, Fisher injured, Gwilt coming back from a knee reco, Blake taken from the backline and playing ruck, etc).

So this time last year there was plenty not going well for us, yet we were still beating or pushing everyone we came up against, yet just 12 months on, we have, as you say, sunk to the level that Melbourne and Western Bulldogs are at and are borderline rabble and suddenly uncompetitive.

No-one will convince me that we couldn't be going a lot better than we are now if we were more focused on getting the best out of what we have at present, rather than bemoaning what we don't have, or thinking about how we might be once we have what we hope to have in the future.

If you're not fully committed to the right here and now (and by that I mean fully focusing on getting the best out of what you have now, even if you're playing some "kids" with an eye to the future), in a brutal and cut-throat business like this, then you'll be put to the sword very quickly by those that are and that is what looks to be happening to us right now. I see that as one of the reasons we've sunk so far, so fast.


Almost all of the team is out of form and we are all over the place, not really playing like a team.

 

[Baldur]

Clearly we are a bottom four team. But we are not Melbourne, they would have waved the white flag and gotten beaten by over a hunderd.

Nor are we GWS, they have lots more talent, gifted to them by the AFL.

Basically we are the Bulldogs last year.

 

[Plugger35]

Clearly we are a bottom four team. But we are not Melbourne, they would have waved the white flag and gotten beaten by over a hunderd.

Nor are we GWS, they have lots more talent, gifted to them by the AFL.

Basically we are the Bulldogs last year.

We shouldn't be a bottom 4 team, we were poor yesterday but we beat Carlton a few weeks ago and have been competitive in most other games.

We're far better than Melbourne and GWS.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

excellent post aussierulesrules very valid point you make there

 

[Defacto]

That's all well and good, if that's what he is still saying, but I want to hear about what he is going to do to get the best out of what he has got to work with right now. Not what he plans to do when he has a "perfect" list to work with, in a couple of years time.

Anyone could probably coach a perfect list with no holes in it, but it takes real talent and guts to get the best out of a list that isn't perfect and that is struggling. To talk about what we don't have is a cop-out and avoids the pressing issue at hand, which is to get the best out of what we do have at the moment, which is all you've ever got to work with.

What we dished up today, especially in the first half, was just utter tripe and not even remotely good enough, inexperienced list or not, especially with regards to our intensity and passion and effort and it was far from the first time we've been crap for a chunk, or most of a game, this year. It was pathetic.

If North had been so inclined they could have wiped the floor with us, GWS-style, but thankfully their intensity dropped right off for much of the 2nd half, as they had done what they needed to do, like what happened when we played Essendon a few weeks ago. I think either of those teams could have beaten us by 100 points if they'd really wanted to badly enough. A 100 point loss (or a loss to Melbourne, which is just as bad) is just around the corner though, if we keep going like this.

There are a whole host of reasons, but to just continue on with what I said above, I do believe strongly that Scott has been sending a very poor message (especially to the playing group) by constantly talking about what we need to recruit at the end of the year and so on, which almost sends a message to everyone at the club (including the playing group) that this year is a write-off, or that it doesn't really matter/that there isn't much point to it, because we don't have this and that and that we're not going to be good enough as we are (which is a terrible message to send) and that we'll be good again when we have this and this and that, sometime down the track, and some in the team are probably wondering why we're even bothering in the meantime, when the one coaching the team seems to be looking way off into the future, with some hypothetical team that he hopes to have, rather than focusing on the present and giving it all his focus and attention for the time being and dealing with the future at the appropriate time (when we get there, if we get there).

Trades and so on will take care of themselves later in the year, we don't need to be thinking and talking about them now, especially in public. Does anyone reckon that a Ross Lyon, Paul Roos, Alistair Clarkson or Mick Malthouse would ever be frequently talking about what they are going to be doing at the trade table at the end of the year, as early as the first few rounds of a season? I reckon it sends a very poor message and shows that your eye is not really on the ball at the present time. The better ones would be looking for every way to make it work with what they have and IF they still need this, this and that, at the end of the year, then they'll look to address those needs at that time.

I think that is a big part of the reason why we have dropped off so much, so alarmingly quickly, because just 12 months ago we were extremely competitive with pretty much every team in the comp, even when we were badly hit with injuries (no Mac in the ruck, Stanley injured as well, making us weaker in both the ruck and the forward line, Kosi playing ruck, further weakening our forward line and ruck, Fisher injured, Gwilt coming back from a knee reco, Blake taken from the backline and playing ruck, etc).

So this time last year there was plenty not going well for us, yet we were still beating or pushing everyone we came up against, yet just 12 months on, we have, as you say, sunk to the level that Melbourne and Western Bulldogs are at and are borderline rabble and suddenly uncompetitive.

No-one will convince me that we couldn't be going a lot better than we are now if we were more focused on getting the best out of what we have at present, rather than bemoaning what we don't have, or thinking about how we might be once we have what we hope to have in the future.

If you're not fully committed to the right here and now (and by that I mean fully focusing on getting the best out of what you have now, even if you're playing some "kids" with an eye to the future), in a brutal and cut-throat business like this, then you'll be put to the sword very quickly by those that are and that is what looks to be happening to us right now. I see that as one of the reasons we've sunk so far, so fast.


Almost all of the team is out of form and we are all over the place, not really playing like a team.

so just so i understand correctly. the whole reason why we have dropped off this year is because scott was talking about potential trade targets through out the year?

 

[Half Back Pocket]

we are there for several reasons:

1). Draft position - 2011 - picks - 25, 35, 37, 42 etc
2010 - picks 24, 43, 59, 75 etc
2009 - picks 32, 60, 64, 77 etc
2008 - picks 13, 47, 48, 62 etc
2007 - picks 9, 42, 57, 70 etc
2006 - picks 9, 27, 59, 74 etc
2005 - picks 33, 49, 63, 71 etc
2004 - picks 17, 33, 49, 63 etc

2 top 10 picks in the last 8 drafts.

By comparison:

Hawthorn - 7
Carlton - 5
WCE - 4
P.A. - 6
Brisbane - 7
Melb - 6
N.M. - 3
Freo - 4
Essendon - 7
Adelaide - 4
W. B. - 5
Richmond - 7

Then add in the Lovett fiasco, drafting of Smith, Gamble, Pattison, Gehrig, Clarke, McGough, Polo, Begley, Ackland etc
and the bizarre rookie-ing/re-drafting of players like Allen, Eddy, McQualter, Miles, Fischer, etc
and some strange trades: Peake, Birss, Charlie Gardiner

Finally add a reluctance to play/develop youngens from 2007 - 2010.

 

[mysainters]

Am a little worried about their general spark?

Not just this week, but where is the enthusiasm, the smiles, the content look from our young ones?

Is there a reason we don't put kids in the middle of the song for their first win?

Lenny is particularly good at getting to younger players and giving them a hair ruffle or a smack on the bum after a good effort.

 

[Defacto]

we are there for several reasons:

1). Draft position - 2011 - picks - 25, 35, 37, 42 etc
2010 - picks 24, 43, 59, 75 etc
2009 - picks 32, 60, 64, 77 etc
2008 - picks 13, 47, 48, 62 etc
2007 - picks 9, 42, 57, 70 etc
2006 - picks 9, 27, 59, 74 etc
2005 - picks 33, 49, 63, 71 etc
2004 - picks 17, 33, 49, 63 etc

2 top 10 picks in the last 8 drafts.

By comparison:

Hawthorn - 7
Carlton - 5
WCE - 4
P.A. - 6
Brisbane - 7
Melb - 6
N.M. - 3
Freo - 4
Essendon - 7
Adelaide - 4
W. B. - 5
Richmond - 7

Then add in the Lovett fiasco, drafting of Smith, Gamble, Pattison, Gehrig, Clarke, McGough, Polo, Begley, Ackland etc
and the bizarre rookie-ing/re-drafting of players like Allen, Eddy, McQualter, Miles, Fischer, etc
and some strange trades: Peake, Birss, Charlie Gardiner

Finally add a reluctance to play/develop youngens from 2007 - 2010.

great post. thats the sole reason for why we are there. its going to take years to recover from that crap. you can go through atleast 2-3 clubs recently that have gone through that and it took them atleast 2 years at the bottom before they came back up. pies are a perfect example

blaming the coach is the easy thing to do and doesnt take much thought. but the reality is scott will take another 2-3 years to turn this list around

i cant believe the reason some think we are not extracting the full potential from our senior players this year is because scott watters has announced that we are looking to trade a KPD. fair dinkum, scott and pelchen highlighted this before scott had even coached a game. i dont recall people having a problem with that honesty last year, when we were in touch with the 8

but now that we're bottom four and the reality has hit, suddenly the knives are out on scott for doing it again this year

were better than that

 

[FlyingSledghamer]

great post. thats the sole reason for why we are there. its going to take years to recover from that crap. you can go through atleast 2-3 clubs recently that have gone through that and it took them atleast 2 years at the bottom before they came back up. pies are a perfect example

blaming the coach is the easy thing to do and doesnt take much thought. but the reality is scott will take another 2-3 years to turn this list around

i cant believe the reason some think we are not extracting the full potential from our senior players this year is because scott watters has announced that we are looking to trade a KPD. fair dinkum, scott and pelchen highlighted this before scott had even coached a game. i dont recall people having a problem with that honesty last year, when we were in touch with the 8

but now that we're bottom four and the reality has hit, suddenly the knives are out on scott for doing it again this year

were better than that

and then another 3 years to get up again... IF were lucky! Reality bites but I'll be honest. I think the state of our list right now is probably a lot worse than people realise. Forget about Roo and Lenny and Milney for a sec and have a look at all the next gen players around 28/29 that will then be gone in a few years. Its a huge list. The change over in players is gona be massive during the next 4 years.

 

[IllBeTheJudge]

so just so i understand correctly. the whole reason why we have dropped off this year is because scott was talking about potential trade targets through out the year?

I don't think anyone said it was the whole reason. But I can see why it could be a factor.

If you were playing a team sport and every week your coach was telling everyone publicly that there were holes in the list and new recruits were required to become competitive, how long would it take before you started thinking maybe they were talking about you that needs replacing? With that thought in mind and maybe thinking that your time was up anyway, perhaps you don't go into the contest as hard as you could, or should.

Whatever the effect, comments like that in the media possibly aren't going to exactly inspire you or fill you with great confidence, are they?

 

[Smoke_Me_AKipper]

we are there for several reasons:

1). Draft position - 2011 - picks - 25, 35, 37, 42 etc
2010 - picks 24, 43, 59, 75 etc
2009 - picks 32, 60, 64, 77 etc
2008 - picks 13, 47, 48, 62 etc
2007 - picks 9, 42, 57, 70 etc
2006 - picks 9, 27, 59, 74 etc
2005 - picks 33, 49, 63, 71 etc
2004 - picks 17, 33, 49, 63 etc

2 top 10 picks in the last 8 drafts.

By comparison:

Hawthorn - 7
Carlton - 5
WCE - 4
P.A. - 6
Brisbane - 7
Melb - 6
N.M. - 3
Freo - 4
Essendon - 7
Adelaide - 4
W. B. - 5
Richmond - 7

Then add in the Lovett fiasco, drafting of Smith, Gamble, Pattison, Gehrig, Clarke, McGough, Polo, Begley, Ackland etc
and the bizarre rookie-ing/re-drafting of players like Allen, Eddy, McQualter, Miles, Fischer, etc
and some strange trades: Peake, Birss, Charlie Gardiner

Finally add a reluctance to play/develop youngens from 2007 - 2010.

Yes! Great post! Superb analysis! I've been wanting/looking for something like this to show why we are where we are. Nothing more to add about why we are currently down the bottom

However there is lots to say about how we draft/trade/free agency over the next 2 or 3 years to get us back up to TOP 4!!

 

[70s sainter]

The backline is in the middle of a massive overhaul at the moment -not all by choice. 10 goals in the first q last week for prob 20 inside 50s tells a pretty ominous tale. We have lost Dawson, Gram ,Goddard as well as Gilbert injured, Fisher injured/unmotivated/aging, Gwilt out of form/exposed ,dempster coming off injury.

Great ins in the backline are roberton and geary but still way short.
Combine this with 2 ruckman still learning and a young and inexperienced midfield unable to stop the ball from flying in and we re always up against it.

Wish list for 2014 is a fullback (frawley or m.clark) allowing Stanley to go forward, a 22-23 yo chb to replace fisher, and a tough 22-23yo inside ball magnet midfielder.
These 3 would go a massive way to turning the club around and considering we should have about a $1mill spare it shouldnt be impossible.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

Yes! Great post! Superb analysis! I've been wanting/looking for something like this to show why we are where we are. Nothing more to add about why we are currently down the bottom

However there is lots to say about how we draft/trade/free agency over the next 2 or 3 years to get us back up to TOP 4!!

I think its already started Kip, hence my reluctance to add in 2011 & 2012 drafts/trades etc.

The classes of 2011/2012 are so far ahead of any we've had since the Super draft of 2001.

Roberton was a stroke of genius...Saad/Milera trade & Hickey & Lee trades still look ok IMO.

 

[Smoke_Me_AKipper]

I think its already started Kip, hence my reluctance to add in 2011 & 2012 drafts/trades etc.

The classes of 2011/2012 are so far ahead of any we've had since the Super draft of 2001.

Roberton was a stroke of genius...Saad/Milera trade & Hickey & Lee trades still look ok IMO.

Yes it has and absolutely. Plugger35 likes to talk about the umpires....well I like to talk about how bad Jon Peake was. I try not to but ultimately it keeps on coming back to him and his poor performance (06-10 I think). No coincidence that 2011/12 drafts are like you say the best since the superdraft and they are Tony Elshaugh's, (with help from Bains, Pelchen, Beveridges). We picked up decent players from the picks we had due to where we finished.
2011: Ross, Newnes, Markworth, & Webster (3 are currently playing and I think will make it and the 4th would be playing if he didn't injure himself early on). Then 2012: Wright is a jet and there is real promise re White, Saunders, Murdoch. Pierce is long term.

Roberton, well no-one thought he would do as well as he has done. The trades you mentioned needed to happen due to the state of our list. We needed to improve our list quickly and had to try to circumvent two bad years of drafting in particular hence why we went for 21 year olds with some development rather than 18 year olds with no development. FWIW I agreed with our list strategy, some may not and that is fine. Also I think we need we need another 2/3 years to determine how good th Saad/Milera/Ross & Lee/Hickey trades are. We could have got Lonergan and Jaksch in 2012 but then would have missed out on both Wright and White, something to keep in mind when comparing.

I'm hoping we pick up an A grade marquee player with our 1st draft picks in both the 2013 & 2014 drafts. We need some KPD's (Brown from WCE being one) and at least one more maybe from a state league. We also need a number of midfielders both inside and out including at least 2 marquee A grade midfielders to lead them. Maybe Ross can be one in the future? Who knows....

I still think if Boyd is available at our first pick we take him as he is the big forward with Spencer as CHF and Lee as that high half forward/swing man. Roughhead/Franklin = Boyd/White - you dig?!

Next 2 years of drafting will set up the following 6 years of performance. I am happy with Elshaugh and his team based on what we've done in 2011/12. 2013 will most likely be the first time they will have a high draft pick that they won't have to trade away, (or at least I hope they don't)!

 

[Half Back Pocket]

Agree 100%.

I really hope we target Adams as well. A 10 year inside mid who will lead the midfield (similar to Lenny IMO). Would really help Jack out.
I'm left wondering where Armo fits in (His intensity in the 2nd quarter did help stop the rot however). Is he nothing more than a bit-part in the future midfield?

 

[Defacto]

I don't think anyone said it was the whole reason. But I can see why it could be a factor.

If you were playing a team sport and every week your coach was telling everyone publicly that there were holes in the list and new recruits were required to become competitive, how long would it take before you started thinking maybe they were talking about you that needs replacing? With that thought in mind and maybe thinking that your time was up anyway, perhaps you don't go into the contest as hard as you could, or should.

Whatever the effect, comments like that in the media possibly aren't going to exactly inspire you or fill you with great confidence, are they?

so why wasnt it an issue for everyone last year?

 

[Smoke_Me_AKipper]

Agree 100%.

I really hope we target Adams as well. A 10 year inside mid who will lead the midfield (similar to Lenny IMO). Would really help Jack out.
I'm left wondering where Armo fits in (His intensity in the 2nd quarter did help stop the rot however). Is he nothing more than a bit-part in the future midfield?

Yes would love Adams. A really good addition if we could somehow broker a deal.

I think Army still has a lot to offer and would still be part of the midfield rotation. It's a tough game and people get injured. He is well and truly needed, especially over the next 2/3 years when the nextgen are finding their feet as well as working on their strength, speed, & endurance before having their own breakout seasons...