Bottom Tier

[IllBeTheJudge]

so why wasnt it an issue for everyone last year?

I can't remember every time Watters had his face on TV last year, but I don't recall him saying too much about how much the list needs work. It seems to be every time he is on telly or radio in the last 2 months this year.

Besides, this time around he has basically back flipped from late last year saying just how we were going to be challengers again, to now having next to no chance (at least now he is right I suppose).

Like I said though, not saying it's the start and end of all the issues but coming out and saying "we are no good right now and the only way out is by recruiting", which is more or less what his message seems to be, rather than "we are no good right now but we have the players to cope and with time and development, we can be a force again in the not too distant future".

See how the second one could give a player, or a fringe player, some hope?

 

[BrianSpeaking]

Gents, the performance is no surprise at all, I posted pre season and early season that the senior players cannot stand Scott Watters. Now I hope you don't start bagging me for revealing some inner circle things but for example, Scott Watters has not had a one on one chat with Nick Dal Santo since last November.
The club is wiping recent history and looking forward, which sadly leaves a lot of our players in purgatory, which I feel is reflecting on field in the way they are playing their footy.
I personally think Scott Watters is a band aid coach who will last 3 more years at the most.
Having said all of that, someone had to come in an roll their sleeves up and do the dirty work, it's never fun telling professional athletes that they are not going to win, and for the club to go forwards it needs to go backwards for the next 3 years.

 

[Strahany]

Now I hope you don't start bagging me for revealing some inner circle things but for example, Scott Watters has not had a one on one chat with Nick Dal Santo since last November.

So, lads, who do you think we'll go after with our second first round pick?

 

[tbarker]

we are there for several reasons:

1). Draft position - 2011 - picks - 25, 35, 37, 42 etc
2010 - picks 24, 43, 59, 75 etc
2009 - picks 32, 60, 64, 77 etc
2008 - picks 13, 47, 48, 62 etc
2007 - picks 9, 42, 57, 70 etc
2006 - picks 9, 27, 59, 74 etc
2005 - picks 33, 49, 63, 71 etc
2004 - picks 17, 33, 49, 63 etc

2 top 10 picks in the last 8 drafts.

By comparison:

Hawthorn - 7
Carlton - 5
WCE - 4
P.A. - 6
Brisbane - 7
Melb - 6
N.M. - 3
Freo - 4
Essendon - 7
Adelaide - 4
W. B. - 5
Richmond - 7

Then add in the Lovett fiasco, drafting of Smith, Gamble, Pattison, Gehrig, Clarke, McGough, Polo, Begley, Ackland etc
and the bizarre rookie-ing/re-drafting of players like Allen, Eddy, McQualter, Miles, Fischer, etc
and some strange trades: Peake, Birss, Charlie Gardiner

Finally add a reluctance to play/develop youngens from 2007 - 2010.

Wow..

 

[tbarker]

Gents, the performance is no surprise at all, I posted pre season and early season that the senior players cannot stand Scott Watters. Now I hope you don't start bagging me for revealing some inner circle things but for example, Scott Watters has not had a one on one chat with Nick Dal Santo since last November.
The club is wiping recent history and looking forward, which sadly leaves a lot of our players in purgatory, which I feel is reflecting on field in the way they are playing their footy.
I personally think Scott Watters is a band aid coach who will last 3 more years at the most.
Having said all of that, someone had to come in an roll their sleeves up and do the dirty work, it's never fun telling professional athletes that they are not going to win, and for the club to go forwards it needs to go backwards for the next 3 years.

Wow. Oh dear - not what we want to hear and unfortunately it confirms what many of us have heard elsewhere. Perhaps some of the proposed trades last year were the club's idea and not the players who ultimately vetoed the deals.

 

[Smoke_Me_AKipper]

Gents, the performance is no surprise at all, I posted pre season and early season that the senior players cannot stand Scott Watters. Now I hope you don't start bagging me for revealing some inner circle things but for example, Scott Watters has not had a one on one chat with Nick Dal Santo since last November.
The club is wiping recent history and looking forward, which sadly leaves a lot of our players in purgatory, which I feel is reflecting on field in the way they are playing their footy.
I personally think Scott Watters is a band aid coach who will last 3 more years at the most.
Having said all of that, someone had to come in an roll their sleeves up and do the dirty work, it's never fun telling professional athletes that they are not going to win, and for the club to go forwards it needs to go backwards for the next 3 years.

That is not good. Thanks for sharing, (again)

So ok we know the problem. The right question to ask is: what's the solution?

Do we trade senior players out, (some will retire), to get good draft picks and start again? (Ah please no - Melbourne good case in point. Will destroy any kind of culture left in the club). So cross that option off.

Do the Club try to mend fences with players, i.e. find some common ground and go from there? Clear the air talks? Try to go forward together for the next couple of years? (Yes perhaps). Certainly one option. Probably most likely I can think of.

Do we get rid of the coach and bring in a new team? (Some would say yes but realistically that is not going to happen so let's stick with what is likely). Like BS has said, SW will be with us until at least end of 2014 season barring a sustained effort like the 1st quarter of the North match.

Any other solutions folks?

 

[stkildathunda]

That is not good. Thanks for sharing, (again)

So ok we know the problem. The right question to ask is: what's the solution?

Do we trade senior players out, (some will retire), to get good draft picks and start again? (Ah please no - Melbourne good case in point. Will destroy any kind of culture left in the club). So cross that option off.

Do the Club try to mend fences with players, i.e. find some common ground and go from there? Clear the air talks? Try to go forward together for the next couple of years? (Yes perhaps). Certainly one option. Probably most likely I can think of.

Do we get rid of the coach and bring in a new team? (Some would say yes but realistically that is not going to happen so let's stick with what is likely). Like BS has said, SW will be with us until at least end of 2014 season barring a sustained effort like the 1st quarter of the North match.

Any other solutions folks?

Tell the players to suck it up, no individual is bigger then the club. If they dont like it, as far as im concerned the can fk off. Dont care who it is.

 

[Tombowler]

Keep your chins up kids. We aren't cellar dwellers and with a bit of luck we'll finish middle-order. Having said that, I think this is the time of the season to say "**** it". We play up the middle, we play brave and we play hard. Encourage players to take risks, have a few bounces. Play with some dash and flair like Steven & Roberton. We beat Carlton by adopting a creative and aggressive running game. We lost the Bulldogs by getting nervous & defensive and we got punished by Norf for the same thing.

We probably will occasionally go for a big score, but we'll surprise some teams too. Turning it over in the midfield is a risk, but we're turning it over anyway. A game style that rewards creativity, initiative and risk might bring some of the joy back into for boys like Nicky Dal and Montagna and certainly allow Steven every opportunity to develop into the elite he's going to be.

Other than that, our small forwards need to instantly and by a factor of ten increase their tackling pressure. We really battle to keep the ball inside our fifty but if we're putting the screws on the other side in our fifty, our weak defense isn't so important and it forces leads up the ground as well as giving our smalls a shitload more opportunity.

That's my take anyway. Having said that, I was proud of the way some of the boys stood up during the Massacre on sunday. Milney showed us why he's still in the side, I reckon and Steven proved he's got some steel beyond his years.

I reckon they'll be hungry to turn things around come the WCE, and might just do it too.

 

[Smoke_Me_AKipper]

Tell the players to suck it up, no individual is bigger then the club. If they dont like it, as far as im concerned the can fk off. Dont care who it is.

I agree with you Sean. I thought I would put it out there and see what other people thought. I for one think SW is the right kind of coach we need for the situation we find our club in.

There's no I in team, (but there is me )!!

 

[Squizz]

So ok we know the problem. The right question to ask is: what's the solution?

Well shit-canning the coach (that horrible man who lied about BJ) isn't helping us win any games, or sign members, or get any positive media.

"Strength through Destabilising" ... nah.

"Strength through White-Anting" ... not working for me either.

Can someone please wake me from this dream where I keep seeing Riewoldt and Montagna running around in near career-best form, and see the club struggling to cover injuries to Hayes, Gilbert and Schneider (and with Dempster and Fisher having their own issues with their body).

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Tell the players to suck it up, no individual is bigger then the club. If they dont like it, as far as im concerned the can fk off. Dont care who it is.

Maybe expressed differently ST but agree. The great thing of team sport, is just that, being part of a team. I have loved the recruitment of both very good players, but those with character too. These are the guys you can build a club around.

Yes they don't have to all be choir boys, but the guys recruited recently and in the next two years, will lead us for the next decade.

 

[Half Back Pocket]

Keep your chins up kids. We aren't cellar dwellers and with a bit of luck we'll finish middle-order. Having said that, I think this is the time of the season to say "**** it". We play up the middle, we play brave and we play hard. Encourage players to take risks, have a few bounces. Play with some dash and flair like Steven & Roberton. We beat Carlton by adopting a creative and aggressive running game. We lost the Bulldogs by getting nervous & defensive and we got punished by Norf for the same thing.

We probably will occasionally go for a big score, but we'll surprise some teams too. Turning it over in the midfield is a risk, but we're turning it over anyway. A game style that rewards creativity, initiative and risk might bring some of the joy back into for boys like Nicky Dal and Montagna and certainly allow Steven every opportunity to develop into the elite he's going to be.

Other than that, our small forwards need to instantly and by a factor of ten increase their tackling pressure. We really battle to keep the ball inside our fifty but if we're putting the screws on the other side in our fifty, our weak defense isn't so important and it forces leads up the ground as well as giving our smalls a shitload more opportunity.

That's my take anyway. Having said that, I was proud of the way some of the boys stood up during the Massacre on sunday. Milney showed us why he's still in the side, I reckon and Steven proved he's got some steel beyond his years.

I reckon they'll be hungry to turn things around come the WCE, and might just do it too.

I think we'll see more of this next season Tom...IMO it's gonna get pretty ugly Round 15 (Freo), Round 18 (Geel), Rounds 20 & 21 (Haw & Syd). Dunell, Ledger, Curren, Spence, Lee will all (hopefully) get some game time & Saunders, Murdoch & Ferg hopefully add to their games tally.

Time to tighten up and teach the young kids defence & team-first mantra's. As they get older/bigger/stronger/fitter we can open up a bit more.

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Gents, the performance is no surprise at all, I posted pre season and early season that the senior players cannot stand Scott Watters. Now I hope you don't start bagging me for revealing some inner circle things but for example, Scott Watters has not had a one on one chat with Nick Dal Santo since last November.
The club is wiping recent history and looking forward, which sadly leaves a lot of our players in purgatory, which I feel is reflecting on field in the way they are playing their footy.
I personally think Scott Watters is a band aid coach who will last 3 more years at the most.
Having said all of that, someone had to come in an roll their sleeves up and do the dirty work, it's never fun telling professional athletes that they are not going to win, and for the club to go forwards it needs to go backwards for the next 3 years.

Was Ross Lyon loved by every player? Was Malthouse loved by every player at Collingwood, or now at Carlton? Or Sheedy at Essendon or GWS?

You don't have to be loved to get results. Respected, listened too, but not necessarily loved.

And whether in sport, family life, or business, its easy to be a friend to all when times are good. When tough decisions need to be made for the greater good, leadership and character need to be shown and you can upset many people.

Watters stepped into a world of problems from Lyon. I think he has done a very good job for where St Kilda is. St Kilda fans have to be careful not to relive history. We are ridiculed by our past lack of professional and desire to operate a rotating merry go round of coaches and players. We are only responsible for our own actions, but a great starting point is to respect and support Watters. No problem disagreeing with selection etc, but keep in context that sometimes decisions are made with factors that we are not aware of.

 

[SaintLex]

Tell the players to suck it up, no individual is bigger then the club. If they dont like it, as far as im concerned the can fk off. Dont care who it is.

Exactly. Time for our older players to harden up. We've had our chances and unfortunately things haven't gone our way. Now we need them to be the leaders for our younger kids, just like Harvey et all did for them.

Having said that, it's not all bad. There's guys like Roo, Lenny and Joey who are doing exactly that and it's what we need right now more than anything.

 

[Tombowler]

Can someone tell me the season Melbourne starting dudding out? I'd be interested, and I know there's a huge difference but it'll be a decent academic exercise nonetheless, in digging out their BigFooty boards around then and seeing what they were saying about it all.

 

[CHBench]

They rolled us in the 2006 EF if that helps. Can't remember if they were on the up though, considering Robertson, Neitz, Yze, White were prominent.

In regards to the "wiping of the past" comment, wtf are the older guys disagreeing with exactly? Is this about the list managers throwing guys like Fisher up for trade? Or is it something like ignoring 09/10? Nearly being a premiership player is not an achievement. You won't find many supporters celebrating that era, so im not sure why they are? (If thats what theyre doing) Surely some of them can understand things need to be done in order to get this club back up the hill.

Tbh, I want these guys weeded out. IDGAF who it is, get them out. I care about the club, not the player.

 

[Noidenous]

Tell the players to suck it up, no individual is bigger then the club. If they dont like it, as far as im concerned the can fk off. Dont care who it is.

Precisely. If Dal Santo et al are openly sooking to jokers outside of the development and welfare infrastructure instead of the club psychs (who are in a position to keep them motivated/honest), they're a part of the problem.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Gents, the performance is no surprise at all, I posted pre season and early season that the senior players cannot stand Scott Watters. Now I hope you don't start bagging me for revealing some inner circle things but for example, Scott Watters has not had a one on one chat with Nick Dal Santo since last November.
The club is wiping recent history and looking forward, which sadly leaves a lot of our players in purgatory, which I feel is reflecting on field in the way they are playing their footy.
I personally think Scott Watters is a band aid coach who will last 3 more years at the most.
Having said all of that, someone had to come in an roll their sleeves up and do the dirty work, it's never fun telling professional athletes that they are not going to win, and for the club to go forwards it needs to go backwards for the next 3 years.

Brian that is absolute crap.

Watters had a one on one chat with Dal Santo in the rooms before the Bulldogs game. Only player I saw him do this with for the brief time we were in there.

Please don't post opinions and pass them off as facts.

 

[BrianSpeaking]

Absolute crap? A one on one chat before a game? Please. How about sitting down in his office like he does with most of the list and asking where he is at, how he wants him to play, what his specific job is, if he's happy, a little bit of love, take the rose coloured glasses off.
Does it mean I agree or disagree with this? I don't give a fat rats clacker TBH, I want the club to win premierships with or without NDS or anyone else for that matter.

This player list is finished, the question is do they trade out great players of our club or keep them? I say trade when others say look at the contribution they have made, loyalty is a two way street, so a hard situation.

 

[Look2Me4Guidance]

Absolute crap? A one on one chat before a game? Please. How about sitting down in his office like he does with most of the list and asking where he is at, how he wants him to play, what his specific job is, if he's happy, a little bit of love, take the rose coloured glasses off.
Does it mean I agree or disagree with this? I don't give a fat rats clacker TBH, I want the club to win premierships with or without NDS or anyone else for that matter.

This player list is finished, the question is do they trade out great players of our club or keep them? I say trade when others say look at the contribution they have made, loyalty is a two way street, so a hard situation.

That is also incorrect.

He speaks to all of the list.

You may be getting you wires crossed with other coaching staff.

 

[Strahany]

This player list is finished, the question is do they trade out great players of our club or keep them? I say trade when others say look at the contribution they have made, loyalty is a two way street, so a hard situation.

I wonder if it's logistically possible to sit down the senior group and tell them the stark, obvious facts (that they're probably in denial about), and give them an open option to request a trade, either for an attempt at a premiership or for money to finish their career on, and then try to meet those requests.

If there are players that are wanting to go, then it should allow us to get all (or most of) the extra top-line picks that we are after, whilst also not 'violating' the ties of loyalty between the club and the players.

 

[Kildonan]

Gents, the performance is no surprise at all, I posted pre season and early season that the senior players cannot stand Scott Watters. Now I hope you don't start bagging me for revealing some inner circle things but for example, Scott Watters has not had a one on one chat with Nick Dal Santo since last November.
The club is wiping recent history and looking forward, which sadly leaves a lot of our players in purgatory, which I feel is reflecting on field in the way they are playing their footy.
I personally think Scott Watters is a band aid coach who will last 3 more years at the most.
Having said all of that, someone had to come in an roll their sleeves up and do the dirty work, it's never fun telling professional athletes that they are not going to win, and for the club to go forwards it needs to go backwards for the next 3 years.

I am appalled at the way you presented this. Clearly this is an opinion based on very little evidence. After reading your post I was upset that this might be true as you have provided some inside information before. You do liberally mix your opinion with actual facts and present it as if it is all the truth, but it is only the truth as you see it.

I looked into this assertion because the way you presented it - Scott it would seem has lost the players - now I find this is not true at all.

Apparently there are only a few players who are upset - there are different reason for this - not the least of which was that the club and players were in an echo chamber where each was fueling the others belief that would be contenders again this year. They also felt they would be able to bring plenty youth through and there would be no significant drop in performance associated with it. Now reality has hit them and a few took it hard. The senior players have stepped up now ...

have to go

 

[Sunshine Saint]

Absolute crap? A one on one chat before a game? Please. How about sitting down in his office like he does with most of the list and asking where he is at, how he wants him to play, what his specific job is, if he's happy, a little bit of love, take the rose coloured glasses off.
Does it mean I agree or disagree with this? I don't give a fat rats clacker TBH, I want the club to win premierships with or without NDS or anyone else for that matter.

This player list is finished, the question is do they trade out great players of our club or keep them? I say trade when others say look at the contribution they have made, loyalty is a two way street, so a hard situation.

Not that I disagree with sentiments you have shown, but amazed that they were from you. The end of last season when we let BJ go and gained an extra round one pick, you were vocal in your opposition of this. Your calls at the time were that by letting any long term player go, we were destroying the fabric and culture of the club.

Seems a lot has changed in six months, or was the loyalty just for BJ?

 

[Persevering Saint]

Here's a thought. Let's ask Nick himself.

https://twitter.com/NickDalSanto

We can put a link to this thread, and he can see BS's comments about his relationship with the coach. Then he can tell us (via Twitter, not here) whether he considers that an accurate description of the current situation.

 

[BrianSpeaking]

Come on Percy, do you really think he is going to come out publicly? The issue isn't NDS, the issue is the perception of the coach by the older blokes.
The bigger issue is whether the older guys are any value as trade bait and whether they should be traded. I would think that answer would have been different before The Dees trades out their older players and loaded up with youth.