Brandon Jack Article

[tombomb]

I just hope we dont have the next Harry O'Brien on our hands ...

The topic itself is kind of 'low hanging fruit' and the article really says nothing that no one doesnt already know (although written in a way that tries to over complicate it), however for a 19 year old it is a good job.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Before I went backpacking for 18 months in some dangerous countries I re-learned how to sprint flat out, something most people can't manage past their mid-20s.

Excellent idea.

 

[Wolftone]

Brandon should have taken heed of the warning he provided in the first line and stuck to football rather than the social commentary.

When was that glorious period of human existence where the moral power of the nuclear family was able to temper our indiscriminate violent urges? It is nostalgia for something which never existed. If anything, humanity has never been less inclined to violence as it is today (granted, that is really not saying a whole lot). The violence of drunk, young men is not a new phenomena, it predates violent movies, social media and smart phones. There is no evidence that these new phenomena have had a discernible effect on levels of violence in society. The only way the media has created this "new, disturbing trend" is by the nightly news and current affairs programs labelling the behaviour as such - the media has created the narrative, not caused the events.

"The sacred value of human life is not seen, or treated, with the fragility it once was." You just have to ask Brandon when he thinks this time was? Prehistorical societies engaged in continual tribal war? Classical periods of slavery and imperial conquest? The middle ages? The age of European colonial expansion? The millions dead in the trenches or the concentration camps of the first half of the 20th century? The nuclear era?

Our present period of "pre-emptive drone strikes" and "collateral damage" is far from perfect and I don't intend to make any grand claims for the state of humanity right now. I struggle to think of a time when human life has ever been considered sacred or treated with fragility. If anything we are living in a comparative golden age where the concept of human rights, the belief that differences of race, religion, gender or sexuality are not legitimate causes for persecution, tempers the use of force by the more powerful in a way that many previous ages could never have imagined. That this is a work in progress no where near completion (it never will be complete) does not undermine the point that there has never in history been a society which placed more value on the lives of all people than ours today.

What shocks us about these acts of violence that have been in the media recently is actually how out of step they are with our lived experience (the "our" here and in the previous paragraph clearly being heavily caveated to exclude billions of people not fortunate enough to live in a country like Australia) in which the threat of physical violence is not a quotidian fact of life.

Of course Brandon's conclusion that these acts can only be addressed by further education is correct, that the way to avoid violence likes this is for young people to be educated in such a way that they become capable of making judgements for themselves which would see them never placed in a position to engage in mindless drunken violence. That is a task for society as a whole, not just families, not just schools. It doesn't help that education process, though, to incorrectly identify the mass media or the internet as the underlying cause or to seek to take our society back to some idyllic period when things were better when such a period simply does not exist.

OK you address issues of a violent world rather than the phenomena of social violence. There have always been wars because one's religious values are different from another or politically your values differ from theirs or you want their land and the ors go on. You don't address the rise in violent crime in our society. In fact violent crime has risen in the last 20 years while other crime rates fall. While violent crime stats fell slightly in 2012 the increase since 1990 is 40%. Sexual Assault increased 20% between 1990 and 2008 this is separate from ordinary assault. So I don't see your correlation working and I see Brandon's working quite well. At least he did his research.

There is a link between violent games, movies, internet, music & other media and violent crime. The institute of social research at Monash University has done some really good research in this area on attitudes to violence among young people. In our society, unlike many others violence is not acceptable and that was also what Brandon was talking about. You tend to address the world attitude to violence but that was not the issue here, it was societal violence in Australia. This must not be confused with war zones, violent cultures (there are some) and other parts of the world. We do have ethics, morals and laws to protect society from this type of behavior. Unfortunately the ethics & morals (same thing really) are breaking down and have been doing so since 1990, about the time gangster rap and violent video games were introduced to Australia.

Please don't confuse a violent world that is struggling to shake off the chains of colonialism, come to terms with it's past and our society which is generally an healthy place to be compared to most of the world. The rise in violence in an egalitarian society like Australia's is very disturbing and the issues are very clear in all the social research. Try reading some.

 

[Swan Dive]

Stick to football Brandon. Leave this sort of thing to the experts.

 

[Kummerspeck]

While violent crime stats fell slightly in 2012 the increase since 1990 is 40%.

Australia's population has risen from ~17m to ~23.5m. About 38%. Pair that with higher rates of reporting and I don't really think that's surprising.

Stick to football Brandon. Leave this sort of thing to the experts.

Nah, even though I think a lot of this particular article is shite, I'd rather our players didn't just pigeonhole themselves. If they're capable of doing commenting, they should.

 

[Arwib]

He's wrong, but good on him for having a go.

He's wrong because there's no statistical evidence at all that the problem he's talking about is actually getting worse. But I wouldn't necessarily expect a 19 year old kid to know that.

 

[Kummerspeck]

I wrote 'doing commenting', I withdraw all criticism of the article.

 

[Wolftone]

He's wrong, but good on him for having a go.

He's wrong because there's no statistical evidence at all that the problem he's talking about is actually getting worse. But I wouldn't necessarily expect a 19 year old kid to know that.

Where do you get you info Arwib? Mine comes from the Institute of Criminology. He is not wrong the incidence of violence has risen from 1990 to 2008 by 40%

Kummerspek I think you are a bit confused. It does not matter how much Australia's population has grown. The incidence of violence should not grow with the population or higher for that matter as it is. As a matter of fact if violence = population growth then maybe we are getting the wrong population or are not educating our kids the right way. It has to be either or a bit of both. So if as you say crime stats are dependent on population growth then why have other crimes such as burglary, car theft, armed robbery, embezzlement etc down? Way down by the way. Work that out!

By the way the only crimes that are up are assault, home invasion & rape.

 

[Wolftone]

Exactly. Fighting is nothing new, humans have been drinking and fighting forever. But the king-hit, while also not completely new, seems to have become unnervingly common (at least based on news reports, would be nice if we could get some solid stats but I doubt they exist). Need to figure out why that is.

There is a video game called 'King Hit' in which the players have to king hit as many people as possible to get the highest points. Several lads who have been picked up for this type of behavior have said them and their mates were playing a live version of the game. It has gone viral in the US and gangs of lads are king hitting innocent passers by. I think that violent arseh*le that hit that kid in KK was playing the game. He had king hit several individuals before finally getting the big hit on the kid. There will be more of the COWARDS PUNCH behavior in coming months unfortunately.

 

[Wolftone]

decline in time for families via the need for time spent at work+ violence on news(even thought the crime rate is going down)

Violent crime is NOT declining, rape is still up, assault fell for the first time since 1990 in 2012 but is up for the 2012/2013 year already.

 

[Arwib]

Where do you get you info Arwib? Mine comes from the Institute of Criminology. He is not wrong the incidence of violence has risen from 1990 to 2008 by 40%

Kummerspek I think you are a bit confused. It does not matter how much Australia's population has grown. The incidence of violence should not grow with the population or higher for that matter as it is. As a matter of fact if violence = population growth then maybe we are getting the wrong population or are not educating our kids the right way. It has to be either or a bit of both. So if as you say crime stats are dependent on population growth then why have other crimes such as burglary, car theft, armed robbery, embezzlement etc down? Way down by the way. Work that out!

By the way the only crimes that are up are assault, home invasion & rape.

That's recorded assault. Recorded assaults have risen, but in large part due to rising reporting and recording, partiuclarly of domestic violence but also of assault in general. These are different surveys but in 2005 the rate of reporting for assault was recorded at 31% in this survey and at 50% in this one in 2012. (The large difference seems to be that the latter is "physical assault" while the former included threatened assault)

Reporting rates are a big issue with official crime data. For example, sexual assault rate information based on police and justice statisitcs are next to useless because due to the degree of underreporting. A rise in officially recorded sexual assaults almost certainly reflects increased reporting (and thus confidence in the police/justice system/culture) rather than more incidents. Sweden, for instance, has a very high sexual assault rate compared to, say, Spain, and it ain't cos there's more assaults happening in Sweden. I'd go so far as to suggest that in general, a rising rate of offiically recorded sexual assaults is a good thing.

Crime victims surveys, which don't rely on officially recorded incidents, are much better for measuring changing rates of victimisation (although even then, changing cultural perceptions of what would be considered assault would play a role). In Australia they haven't got a consistent long term time series but when they've existed they haven't tended to show much movement in assault rates.

(This is why I can't fault the kid, even if he'd looked up the data, you actually have to understand and think about where it's coming from to avoid drawing erroneous conclusions)

 

[Wolftone]

I read the piece and while I don't agree with everything he wrote (it's an opinion piece, after all!) I think he makes some very valid points, and I'm all for anything that raises our awareness of the importance of an ethical education. Things like ethics and morals are there to guide our behaviour and to provide an example of how we should conduct ourselves. Without morals, society cannot function.

I agree with you and I think the kids in NSW could do with a role model seeing they have been let down by NRL thugs again and again. The recent gaoling of an NRL player is just one in a whole bunch of indiscretions committed by their players. When an NRL rookie thinks it is ok to rape a girl I then lose all confidence in that sport. I hope he gets enough exposure to influence some young people as I very well know they are more likely to listen to a 19/20 year old than mum & dad.

 

[Kummerspeck]

Where do you get you info Arwib? Mine comes from the Institute of Criminology. He is not wrong the incidence of violence has risen from 1990 to 2008 by 40%

Kummerspek I think you are a bit confused. It does not matter how much Australia's population has grown. The incidence of violence should not grow with the population or higher for that matter as it is.

Why should the number of violent incidents stay locked at 1980s levels despite the population growing in that time?

 

[baja]

Yes! It's steroids!
Which in turn creates a REAL small penis which in turn makes these guys angry.
Angry with normal looking guys that more than probably have bigger penises than they do.
It becomes a mental thing you see.

Don't take steroids folks. It'll give you a small penis.
That goes for the ladies too.

There has been a huge rise in the use of steroids among young men so your point is valid, I think it has gone past ice, cannabis, coke, heroin etc.. the problem is the young blokes aren't mentally prepared for the changes in their testosterone levels they get rage its not from trying to be tough its genuine rage they cant control it.

You are wrong about your penis shrinking, in fact with the risen 'arousal' levels due to the high testosterone level, the constant attention you or your girlfriend gives it I would say it would even get bigger not smaller.
Its your balls that shrink.

You can combat that with certain estragon blockers but it is ill advised for younger men all sorts of problems can happen. When they stop using steroids their bodies fail to produce the natural testosterone and they can become weaker and sick not to mention the cardio and liver damage.

For older men that their natural testosterone levels are in decline it can be like the fountain of youth if properly administered and monitored by a doctor and meh, when you get older balls are overrated anyway.

Sorry to backtrack with this post as the conversations have been very interesting.

Im in the camp that leans towards the stats being skewed, so much happened 20-50yrs ago that no one found out about, the reporting of crimes was rare, no one can say with any authority that violence has risen, the stats have though.
The style of some vicious assaults are alarming but even those aren't new.

 

[Arwib]

I tend to think probably not much has changed in quite a while unless something can demonstrate otherwise. For example, in the older International Crime Victims Survey results (table 13), the prevance of Assault in Australia (assaults and threats) were as follows:

1988 - 5.2
1991 - 4.7
1999 - 6.4
2003-04 - 3.8

(not as good a survey as the ABS Crime Victims ones as they have a smaller sample size, but they go back further)

 

[alanlau34]

meh, when you get older balls are overrated anyway.

I think we have an early nomination for quote of 2014

 

[baja]

I think we have an early nomination for quote of 2014

Trust you to be the first to comment on a post involving balls and penises.

 

[alanlau34]

Yes! It's steroids!
Which in turn creates a REAL small penis which in turn makes these guys angry.
Angry with normal looking guys that more than probably have bigger penises than they do.
It becomes a mental thing you see.

Don't take steroids folks. It'll give you a small penis.
That goes for the ladies too.

You are wrong about your penis shrinking, in fact with the risen 'arousal' levels, the constant attention you or your girlfriend gives it I would say it would even get bigger not smaller.
Its your balls that shrink.

Trust you to be the first to comment on a post involving balls and penises.

Sorry? I can't hear you over the sound of your pot describing penis sizes to the kettle...in strangely specific detail

 

[baja]

Sorry? I can't hear you over the sound of your pot describing penis sizes to the kettle...in strangely specific detail

Ok you got me there lol

 

[swans2014]

That's recorded assault. Recorded assaults have risen, but in large part due to rising reporting and recording, partiuclarly of domestic violence but also of assault in general. These are different surveys but in 2005 the rate of reporting for assault was recorded at 31% in this survey and at 50% in this one in 2012. (The large difference seems to be that the latter is "physical assault" while the former included threatened assault)

Reporting rates are a big issue with official crime data. For example, sexual assault rate information based on police and justice statisitcs are next to useless because due to the degree of underreporting. A rise in officially recorded sexual assaults almost certainly reflects increased reporting (and thus confidence in the police/justice system/culture) rather than more incidents. Sweden, for instance, has a very high sexual assault rate compared to, say, Spain, and it ain't cos there's more assaults happening in Sweden. I'd go so far as to suggest that in general, a rising rate of offiically recorded sexual assaults is a good thing.

Crime victims surveys, which don't rely on officially recorded incidents, are much better for measuring changing rates of victimisation (although even then, changing cultural perceptions of what would be considered assault would play a role). In Australia they haven't got a consistent long term time series but when they've existed they haven't tended to show much movement in assault rates.

(This is why I can't fault the kid, even if he'd looked up the data, you actually have to understand and think about where it's coming from to avoid drawing erroneous conclusions)

Well put. Violence has always existed and continues to exist, although how it is manifested may change over time and from community to community. I agree with Arwib that higher reporting rates (and as a result, higher numbers of recorded incidents) may indeed be a sign that society is refusing to accept violence and is willing to make acts of violence known, and certainly should not be interpreted to mean that actual incidents have risen over time.

Certain forms of violence are more tolerated and/or hidden within Australian society than others, and for whatever reason the 'coward punch' has struck a chord with people. Anything that gets people talking about violence is positive, and hopefully the current debate on the 'coward punch' leads to broader efforts to prevent violence in the community..

As for the suggestion that footballers should stick to football, I strongly disagree. Because of a blog post by a Swans player that found its way into the Fairfax press a lot of people who wouldn't otherwise have discussed the issue are now doing so (and have been for several days, at least on this forum). I don't agree with Jack's arguments, but he's got people talking and that's the main thing, because as long as violence remains hidden it will continue.

I think it's great that players such as Brandon Jack and Adam Goodes (among others) are willing to use their public profiles to bring attention to social issues, they should be congratulated - I wish more players would do the same.

 

[RW]

I agree with you and I think the kids in NSW could do with a role model seeing they have been let down by NRL thugs again and again. The recent gaoling of an NRL player is just one in a whole bunch of indiscretions committed by their players. When an NRL rookie thinks it is ok to rape a girl I then lose all confidence in that sport. I hope he gets enough exposure to influence some young people as I very well know they are more likely to listen to a 19/20 year old than mum & dad.

Yeah, I sort of see it this way too, regardless of whether he is actually right or wrong about the causes of violent crime, at least someone is putting the right kind of messages out there, knowing that young people do look up to footballers, who can have an influence.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Why should the number of violent incidents stay locked at 1980s levels despite the population growing in that time?

I think he's talking per capita surely? While you're thinking real numbers maybe?

 

[swans2014]

I agree with you and I think the kids in NSW could do with a role model seeing they have been let down by NRL thugs again and again. The recent gaoling of an NRL player is just one in a whole bunch of indiscretions committed by their players. When an NRL rookie thinks it is ok to rape a girl I then lose all confidence in that sport. I hope he gets enough exposure to influence some young people as I very well know they are more likely to listen to a 19/20 year old than mum & dad.

Provided Swans and GWS players are able to distance themselves from the disgusting behaviour of players from some of the other AFL clubs they can certainly be really good role models for NSW kids, but to imply that the AFL enjoys some sort of moral high ground over the NRL is a bit of a stretch. AFL players have been charged with offences and convicted, and some players have well documented links to organised crime figures - hardly a league of cleanskins.

So far both the Swans and GWS have remained relatively scandal free on the player behaviour front. The fact that AFL players in Sydney aren't as well known as NRL players (or as AFL players in the football states) probably keeps their egos in check and helps them to avoid trouble to an extent. Sydney in particular have also put together a player welfare system that is admired by many, so that might have something to do with the lack of recent off-field problems at the Swans.

 

[bungee]

For those who think that violence has decreased with the advance of 'civilisation' I offer this quote from an article in The Guardian (UK)

'The 20th century was the most murderous in recorded history. The total number of deaths caused by or associated with its wars has been estimated at 187m, the equivalent of more than 10% of the world's population in 1913. Taken as having begun in 1914, it was a century of almost unbroken war, with few and brief periods without organised armed conflict somewhere. It was dominated by world wars: that is to say, by wars between territorial states or alliances of states.'

The 21st century shows no sign of reversing this trend. Already there have been wars and conflicts in Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria, Sri Lanka, Nepal, Macedonia, Sudan, Chechnya, Gaza, Chad, Central African Republic, Congo, Somalia, Georgia, Tunisia, Egypt, Pakistan, Honduras, Libya, Ivory Coast, Colombia and Burundi (to name a few). Then there are the increasingly global and never ending 'secret' wars waged between terrorist organisations and their opponents or ongoing border conflicts such as India/Bangladesh and Ethiopia/Somalia. North Korea is threatening nukes on Japan. China is inviting conflict with Japan as a challenge to US supremacy in the region. Heck, we've only just got started but the 21st century may well turn out to be the deadliest of them all.

Back on the street, violence prevalent in media, games and video is just one of the issues behind cowardly, casual assault. It doesn't cause it but it lowers the tolerance to violence and makes it appear more acceptable. Face it, we live in a pretty distorted society when we banish images of consenting adult love from our TV yet cheerfully display scenes of graphic murder and violence. Personally, I have no problem with someone coming up to me on the street and threatening consenting adult sex. I'd much rather that was the norm.

Too many Australians are prepared to ignore the problem of violence our streets, as long as it's not them or their loved ones being assaulted. Brandon's got guts to speak out on the issue, knowing full well that he would leave himself open to criticism by those who'd rather believe there was no problem.

The message he sends out (as a role model) is one of taking responsibility for a better society and being prepared to try to change it. It doesn't matter whether his solution is the best one, as long as he ignites a debate and inspires others.

 

[Swansujelly]

http://www.police.nsw.gov.au/about_...r_100,000_population_by_year_and_offence_type

apart from sexual assaults, most other things are trending down. Make of that what you will, but we all agree one assault is one too many.