Bring out your right wing canards!

[Contra Mundum]

Nothing

 

[skipper kelly]

3. Everything John Howard does can be justified

3. Everything John Howard does can be justified because Labor would do it worse.

 

[hoss]

Unions are OK as long as they are not blue collar and are employers unions.

Long live the AMA, NFF, Pastoralists and Graziers etc. Down with workers unions.

Refugees and asylum seekers are to be referred to as illegals!

 

[medusala]

Subtle argument put by right thinking people on this forum.

1. Israel is always right and palestinians, or other arab nations are always wrong

2. All Labour Governments are always inept/corrupt

3. Everything John Howard does can be justified

4. Refugees and political prisoners do not deserve rights


5. Any labour regulation is trade union feather bedding and kills jobs

6. Exercises of American military might and imperial power are always benign.

1. crap
2. virtually correct, how many decent labour govts can you name? Even Carr has now lost the plot. Australias worst premier and worst PM were both labor, they seem to have a monopoly on ineptness.
3. not at all, he should be ashamed to show his face in public given he steals 50c in every dollar from those who want to succeed in life
4. i) correct ii) didnt know we had any in Australia
5. other than those involving health and safety you are correct
7. not necessarily but British imperial power for one was in most cases a positive experience.

 

[CharlieG]

1. crap
2. virtually correct, how many decent labour govts can you name? Even Carr has now lost the plot. Australias worst premier and worst PM were both labor, they seem to have a monopoly on ineptness.
3. not at all, he should be ashamed to show his face in public given he steals 50c in every dollar from those who want to succeed in life
4. i) correct ii) didnt know we had any in Australia
5. other than those involving health and safety you are correct
7. not necessarily but British imperial power for one was in most cases a positive experience.

6. You can't count.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

1. crap
2. virtually correct, how many decent labour govts can you name? Even Carr has now lost the plot. Australias worst premier and worst PM were both labor, they seem to have a monopoly on ineptness.
3. not at all, he should be ashamed to show his face in public given he steals 50c in every dollar from those who want to succeed in life
4. i) correct ii) didnt know we had any in Australia
5. other than those involving health and safety you are correct
7. not necessarily but British imperial power for one was in most cases a positive experience.

2. Curtin, Beattie, Fisher, Cook for starters. Lang government in depression era NSW also achieved a lot but was stabbed in the back by right wing profiteers.

3. Vertical equity mean anything to you?

4. Refugees have a right to come here and expect fair treatment under international law, being locked up for 4 - plus years does not equal fair treatment.

While we're on this, care to explain why the Howard government feels the need to lobby to get Australian Drug Dealers released from Asian prisons, but allows the US to continue the illegal imprisonment and torture of two of our citzens who haven't been charged with anything?

5. Of course, damn those bottom wage workers, Horatio Alger all the way!

7. Thousands of Indians, Sudanese, Chinese, Aboriginals, Dutch South Africans, Americans and Maoris would be hard pressed to agree with you.

 

[hoss]

1. crap
2. virtually correct, how many decent labour govts can you name? Even Carr has now lost the plot. Australias worst premier and worst PM were both labor, they seem to have a monopoly on ineptness.

I thought Billy McMahon was Liberal ????

3. not at all, he should be ashamed to show his face in public given he steals 50c in every dollar from those who want to succeed in life

Quite right. Rarely does a time in history come about when the economy is going so well, significant tax relief could be implemented. JWH blew the perfect chance to bring the top rate down to 40c or even lower by having a 13 billion dollar middle class welfare splurge.

I reckon he'd now be regretting that now, knowing that the election wasn't even close.

 

[medusala]

2. Curtin, Beattie, Fisher, Cook for starters. Lang government in depression era NSW also achieved a lot but was stabbed in the back by right wing profiteers.

3. Vertical equity mean anything to you?

4. Refugees have a right to come here and expect fair treatment under international law, being locked up for 4 - plus years does not equal fair treatment.

While we're on this, care to explain why the Howard government feels the need to lobby to get Australian Drug Dealers released from Asian prisons, but allows the US to continue the illegal imprisonment and torture of two of our citzens who haven't been charged with anything?

5. Of course, damn those bottom wage workers, Horatio Alger all the way!

7. Thousands of Indians, Sudanese, Chinese, Aboriginals, Dutch South Africans, Americans and Maoris would be hard pressed to agree with you.

2 Lang vies with Cain/Kirner for the title of Australias worst ever premier. Amongst labor figures only Keating will defend him. He wasnt stabbed in the back by right wingers, his own party disowned him. Curtin was ok, pass marks to Beattie and Lennon, Carr should retire quickly to maintain his pass.

3. Ever hear of the Laffer curve? If the govt reduced the tax rate the actual amount of tax collected would increase. There have been numerous examples of this happening ie Pakistan, USA and even here with the luxury car tax. Over time increased activity would result in greater prosperity for all. Why would you bother busting your gut only for the govt to steal half? Well hundreds of thousands of Australians dont and work os, thus depriving the economy of jobs, wealth creaters and tax revenue.

4. Illegal immigrants have no rights. If I entered another country illegally I would be locked up as I would expect to be. You completely misunderstand the situation if you think refugees are locked up for 4 years. The only people locked up for that long are those that have been denied refugee status. They are free to leave at any time. You have swallowed too much propaganda from the ABC

5. Just like the union saying it was an impossibility to lift 25 containers and hour and that Reith was dreaming. Well it happened as did massive productivity increases in the Pilbara (with workers getting decent pay increases at the same time).

6. You have got to be kidding. India is the largest democracy in the world, why do you think that is? Also the Brits left behind a massive railway network and other infrastructure that didnt exist elsewhere in Asia. In addition trade had already been established between India and many other countries that wouldnt have happened had the Brits not been in charge. Why even mention the Americans? You think they would have been better off colonised by the Dutch, French or Spanish? Why do they see Britain as their closest ally in the world and have done for the last 100 years? The dutch South Africans are ********ers so they dont count. The Sudanese got what they deserved for killing Gordon. The maoris like the aborigines would still be in the stone age without the poms, they should remember that every time they start to whinge.

Even Thabo Mbekis brother said the other day that African countries were better off under British rule than the current lot of African leaders.

 

[CharlieG]

It was the white man's burden, huh Medders?

 

[medusala]

It was the white man's burden, huh Medders?

Noblesse oblige.

 

[1jasonoz]

5. Just like the union saying it was an impossibility to lift 25 containers and hour and that Reith was dreaming. Well it happened as did massive productivity increases in the Pilbara (with workers getting decent pay increases at the same time).

.

Explain the bit about the Pilbara tks?

 

[CharlieG]

Noblesse oblige.

With wealth and power comes more wealth and power, and responsibilities generally get ignored. The 'responsibilities' were certainly lived up to in Africa, weren't they? You know full well that the white man's burden was, in reality, nothing more than an attempt to justify actions that the Europeans wouldn't tolerate foreigners doing to them.

I'm sure you'd just love for the European countries to still have their captive markets, huh?

 

[David Votoupal]

7. Thousands of Indians, Sudanese, Chinese, Aboriginals, Dutch South Africans, Americans and Maoris would be hard pressed to agree with you.

Hmmm... the reality:

- Australia, NZ and Canada are countries everyone is lining up to get into and why? Because in those countries, you have the right to a decent life and political and social freedom.

- other countries formerly under British rule like India, Jamaica, Bahamas, Barbados, Trinidad & Tobago, Belize, etc have been stable parliamentary democracies.

- countries like Singapore, Bahamas, Barbados, Trinidad & Tobago, Antigua and Barbuda- all formerly under British rule- as well as the British dependency of Bermuda have all done exceedingly well economically for their size, much better than many far bigger countries.

Make most of that if you will.

 

[Freo Big Fella]

Hmmm... the reality:

- Australia, NZ and Canada are countries everyone is lining up to get into and why? Because in those countries, you have the right to a decent life and political and social freedom.

- other countries formerly under British rule like India, Jamaica, Bahamas, Barbados, Trinidad & Tobago, Belize, etc have been stable parliamentary democracies.

- countries like Singapore, Bahamas, Barbados, Trinidad & Tobago, Antigua and Barbuda- all formerly under British rule- as well as the British dependency of Bermuda have all done exceedingly well economically for their size, much better than many far bigger countries.

Make most of that if you will.

Zimbabwe, Sudan, Palestinian Mandate, Afghanistan. Make of that what you will.

 

[medusala]

Zimbabwe, Sudan, Palestinian Mandate, Afghanistan. Make of that what you will.

Zimbabwe was in very good shape when the Brits left it. Sudan's problems are caused by Islamic zealots not the Brits, its a struggle to say that Afghanistan was really a British colony and there would have been trouble in Palestine regardless of what the Brits did.

 

[MillerCHF]

Subtle argument put by right thinking people on this forum.

1. Israel is always right and palestinians, or other arab nations are always wrong

2. All Labour Governments are always inept/corrupt

3. Everything John Howard does can be justified

4. Refugees and political prisoners do not deserve rights


5. Any labour regulation is trade union feather bedding and kills jobs

6. Exercises of American military might and imperial power are always benign.

1. Not as a rule, as no nation is perfect. I criticise Israel myself. However, in general Israel has a lot more to be proud of than the Palestinians as Israel does not stoop to the genocidal, fratricidal, race-hate propagandising levels of the Palestinians.

2. Not at all true. However, there are certainly more instances of ALP governments being that way than Coalition governments.

3. Not true. John Howard is not perfect, nobody is perfect. There's a number of things he believes in that I vehemently disagree with. But overall Howard is a great leader.

4. Refugees deserve rights. Not sure what you're trying to get at with the political prisoners thing - maybe you can explain.

5. It's a difficult one. There's no doubt that there is over-regulation, but that's being taken care of now . But as Medusala said, you need to make exceptions for things like health and safety.

6. Not true as no military campaign can be benign. War is a bad thing. But compared to the rest of the world, especially the war-mongering Arab dictatorships, the USA looks great. And I know I prefer the USA to be the world's superpower and chief 'sheriff', than say Syria or North Korea.

 

[medusala]

With wealth and power comes more wealth and power, and responsibilities generally get ignored. The 'responsibilities' were certainly lived up to in Africa, weren't they? You know full well that the white man's burden was, in reality, nothing more than an attempt to justify actions that the Europeans wouldn't tolerate foreigners doing to them.

I'm sure you'd just love for the European countries to still have their captive markets, huh?

I presume you are joking. Take a look at the African countries where Britain was the colonial power. How many are better off now than they were under British rule? Kenya, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Uganda, Nigeria, Sierra Leone. Hardly think so. Botswana has done ok and in all likelihood South Africa would be a better place today if independence were granted at the same time as other african countries rather than earlier.

Not only that but you dont mention that commonwealth countries enjoyed trade privileges with the UK until they joined the EC and the French forced them to drop them. A small country trading with a large country disproportionately enjoys the benefits of such a relationship.

Your attempts to rewrite history arent going very well.

 

[CharlieG]

I presume you are joking. Take a look at the African countries where Britain was the colonial power. How many are better off now than they were under British rule? Kenya, Somalia, Zimbabwe, Uganda, Nigeria, Sierra Leone. Hardly think so. Botswana has done ok and in all likelihood South Africa would be a better place today if independence were granted at the same time as other african countries rather than earlier.

Not only that but you dont mention that commonwealth countries enjoyed trade privileges with the UK until they joined the EC and the French forced them to drop them. A small country trading with a large country disproportionately enjoys the benefits of such a relationship.

Your attempts to rewrite history arent going very well.

Mate, you're the one saying that British rule has been positive. So what have the African states that were formerly British colonies gained from being part of the British Empire?

Speaking of rewriting history and small countries benefiting from trade with big ones... do you even know why the British Empire was built in the first place? It was precisely because Britain would benefit greatly from protected markets and access to resources. Empire is not benevolent, Medusala.

 

[David Votoupal]

Zimbabwe, Sudan, Palestinian Mandate, Afghanistan. Make of that what you will.

Afghanistan- was it really a British dependency at one point?

Palestine- medusala explained it already.

Zimbabwe- well... it was an economically strong country, it had a strong currency and could feed everyone. Were there inequalities politically and economically? Yes, and they realised it but it would have been addressed in time. And IIRC, was any Rhodesian force ever defeated at home?

Sudan- like Zimbabwe, the most damning evidence yet that racism is (1) not the sole property of Anglo-Saxons and (2) some of the worst racism is perpetrated by people other than Anglo-Saxons. The government of Sudan has not only persecuted the non-Arab, non-Muslim population, even the Muslim non-Arab population has suffered discrimination (despite the fact that Islam technically condemns racism).

 

[medusala]

Mate, you're the one saying that British rule has been positive. So what have the African states that were formerly British colonies gained from being part of the British Empire?

Speaking of rewriting history and small countries benefiting from trade with big ones... do you even know why the British Empire was built in the first place? It was precisely because Britain would benefit greatly from protected markets and access to resources. Empire is not benevolent, Medusala.

Empire has been extremely benevolent if you happen to be in the right empire. What have those African states gained? Well the 3 richest countries in Africa are former British colonies (Botswana,SA and the Seychelles) and 6 of the top 10 countries per capita GDP are former UK colonies. Of the 4 that arent former colonies 3 (Tunisia, Algeria and Libya) are oil economies. In addition the judiciary tends to be more independent in former UK colonies. Even in Zimbabwe recently a politically motivated case against the leader of the opposition was dismissed. So those african colonies ruled by the Brits tend to be richer with more political freedom. There is overwhelming statistical evidence to back this up. Not exactly sure how you can dispute it.

Just another point to show the benefits of British colonialism. Take Singapore and Hong Kong. Both were nothing more than fishing villages when the Brits took them over. Without the UK both would be just small cities rather than financial centres with extremely high living standards.

If you are going to say that colonisation was such a bad thing you are going to have to bring up some examples and some facts and figures to back your case up. I have proved overwhelmingly that British colonisation was benevolent. Its not just me who thinks this, subjects of these colonies have overwhelmingly voted in favour of staying as colonies in recent times ie Gibraltar, Hong Kong, Northern Ireland, Bermuda, Falklands, Cayman Islands.

And another thing while we are on the topic. Have you ever considered why the most respected offshore centres are UK dependencies ie Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Virgin Islands, Turks and Caicos etc.

Its because of the legacy of common law and stable govt. The living standard in these places is extremely high. ie compare the living standard of Bermuda and the Cayman Islands with their neighbours like Cuba, Haiiti etc and join the dots.

Argue all you like that Spanish, French et al were crap colonists but dont try to argue that UK colonisation was always bad for the subjects of those countries because you will really struggle.

 

[Contra Mundum]

1.
5. It's a difficult one. There's no doubt that there is over-regulation, but that's being taken care of now . But as Medusala said, you need to make exceptions for things like health and safety.


I assume it does not extend to industrial manslaughter laws

 

[CharlieG]

Empire has been extremely benevolent if you happen to be in the right empire. What have those African states gained? Well the 3 richest countries in Africa are former British colonies (Botswana,SA and the Seychelles) and 6 of the top 10 countries per capita GDP are former UK colonies. Of the 4 that arent former colonies 3 (Tunisia, Algeria and Libya) are oil economies. In addition the judiciary tends to be more independent in former UK colonies. Even in Zimbabwe recently a politically motivated case against the leader of the opposition was dismissed. So those african colonies ruled by the Brits tend to be richer with more political freedom. There is overwhelming statistical evidence to back this up. Not exactly sure how you can dispute it.

Just another point to show the benefits of British colonialism. Take Singapore and Hong Kong. Both were nothing more than fishing villages when the Brits took them over. Without the UK both would be just small cities rather than financial centres with extremely high living standards.

If you are going to say that colonisation was such a bad thing you are going to have to bring up some examples and some facts and figures to back your case up. I have proved overwhelmingly that British colonisation was benevolent. Its not just me who thinks this, subjects of these colonies have overwhelmingly voted in favour of staying as colonies in recent times ie Gibraltar, Hong Kong, Northern Ireland, Bermuda, Falklands, Cayman Islands.

And another thing while we are on the topic. Have you ever considered why the most respected offshore centres are UK dependencies ie Cayman Islands, Bermuda, Channel Islands, Isle of Man, Virgin Islands, Turks and Caicos etc.

Its because of the legacy of common law and stable govt. The living standard in these places is extremely high. ie compare the living standard of Bermuda and the Cayman Islands with their neighbours like Cuba, Haiiti etc and join the dots.

Argue all you like that Spanish, French et al were crap colonists but dont try to argue that UK colonisation was always bad for the subjects of those countries because you will really struggle.

You know what? I'm going to put my faith in the various nations of people who fought against the British Empire, rather than embracing it.

The majority of the dependencies you listed have a common feature; they are mostly or entirely Brits, with British citizenship and British ethnicity. It's a bit of a stretch saying the vast majority of Northern Irish people want to be part of the UK, by the way.

The richest former British possessions - Australia, Canada and New Zealand, had Dominion status, the right to British citizenship, democratic government and largely Anglo-Saxon populations with close ties to Britain. Is it any wonder that these countries had the best experience of imperialism? I'm not sure that the Aborigines would thank the British for coming, either. It may have been inevitable, but that doesn't make it a good thing for them.

Meanwhile - in the vast majority of colonies where the locals had no self-government and no citizenship, the British have left a legacy of poverty, fighting and resentment. Rather than complaining about the Sudanese or the Zimbabweans, try listening to their complaints. I suspect you won't do it - because you want to live your life without questioning your (mis)conceptions about the world. The world is too big for you once you step out your front door.

 

[Bombers 2003]

4. i) correct ii) didnt know we had any in Australia.

1-I thought you lived in London,so what's this 'we in australia'?.
2-prisoners of Conscience are POLITICAL PRISONERS.

 

[evo]

Empire is not benevolent, Medusala.

Unless it's a socialist empire I presume Charlie.Like say China.Then it's all about benevolence.

 

[CharlieG]

Unless it's a socialist empire I presume Charlie.Like say China.Then it's all about benevolence.

China is not an empire, and not really socialist either.

Had you said the USSR, I would have agreed with you completely, but you chose the wrong example.