Oppo Camp Brodie Grundy (Traded to Melbourne 2022)

[Knightmare]

If he played today he'd be taller, fitter, stronger etc. Humans are bigger and the realtivities would be the same. If you take players from another era you have to update the physical charateristics IMO. Gorden Coventry was the ony player to kick 1,000 goals for a hundred years but at his height would be be big enough today to dominate like he did? Possiby not but he'd be taller if he was 25 years old today. Syd wouln't be a giant as far as ruck's go but he'd be a pretty handy ruckman I would suspect. Of course we only have reputation to go one when they played that far back.

My great grandparents and great, great grandparents and their offspring are taller than any generation since (all males 2m+, all females 185cm+) from my mum's, mum's side. I'm 192/193cm and my mum is around 175cm.

Shaq's son is shorter. MJ's sons are shorter. Manute Bol's son is shorter. Ablett Jr is shorter than Ablett SNR.

My year 6 teacher was the grandson of either Albert or Harry Collier. He's no taller than them at around 170cm.

The same assumption can't be made with the Coventry's either.

It's not such a fixed rule or so automatic that with each generation you get taller. Often it will be the case, but not always. So I don't make assumptions that if a guy is born 50 years or 100 years later than they're going to be any different. You can only judge them on who they were and what they could do then. Because ultimately, that is what they contributed.

 

[ZEV]

Hitouts aren't the only relevant stat. Cox likely had Sandilands beat in disposals, marks, tackles and goals in a similar split.

Couldn't be bothered with everything but rechecked a couple of things...

Over the 16 games Cox and Sandilands faced off (minus 2 injury games);

Cox averaged 16.43 disposals and 16.6 hit outs. Sandilands averaged 14 disposals and 28.25 hit outs. Who would you pick?

 

[ZEV]

Thompson had Grundy covered as a mark and forward of centre as a goalkicker. So that's a fair call.

Grundy first to 500 disposals and 1000 hitouts all in the same season is his case. One of three ever to hit 1000 hitouts in a season (including finals) and Grundy's go is his followup/ground level stuff.

Centre circle rule changes so much for ruckman its not funny.

 

[Knightmare]

Couldn't be bothered with everything but rechecked a couple of things...

Over the 16 games Cox and Sandilands faced off (minus 2 injury games);

Cox averaged 16.43 disposals and 16.6 hit outs. Sandilands averaged 14 disposals and 28.25 hit outs. Who would you pick?

With Sandilands playing the complete or near complete ruck minutes while Cox a lot of the time has shared the ruck load plays a part.

Cox for the extra disposals, marks, tackles and goals kicked. He's the clear choice for mine. Particularly beating out Sandilands in each of those categories with less ruck minutes.

 

[ZEV]

I'm not really convinced you really get the role of a ruckman

 

[Brad Goodman]

Not sure on your point, as I qaa talking about price, but if you were making a point about it being mire than dangerous than a standard hike, did you actually read the article. Deaths are rare and nearly all are the result of altitude sickness or pre-existing conditions.

Plus the tally seems way lower than the road toll. He should probably stop driving too.

 

[sr36]

With Sandilands playing the complete or near complete ruck minutes while Cox a lot of the time has shared the ruck load plays a part.

Cox for the extra disposals, marks, tackles and goals kicked. He's the clear choice for mine. Particularly beating out Sandilands in each of those categories with less ruck minutes.

Sandilands by a big margin for me.

I don't have access to such things, but I reckon if you broke down the disposals, you'd find that Sandiland's possessions were as influential or probably more so than Cox's disposals. My vibe test has Sandilands winning significantly more centre clearances and possessions in congestion, but Cox getting significantly more undamaging linking handballs received and given.

 

[ZEV]

Sandilands by a big margin for me.

I don't have access to such things, but I reckon if you broke down the disposals, you'd find that Sandiland's possessions were as influential or probably more so than Cox's disposals. My vibe test has Sandilands winning significantly more centre clearances and possessions in congestion, but Cox getting significantly more undamaging linking handballs received and given.

Across their entire career Sandilands averaged more contested possessions, contested marks and clearances but Cox was clearly ahead in goals, uncontested possessions and marks. Both were outstanding and clearly the best two ruck men considerably better than their peers.

 

[ZEV]

My great grandparents and great, great grandparents and their offspring are taller than any generation since (all males 2m+, all females 185cm+) from my mum's, mum's side. I'm 192/193cm and my mum is around 175cm.

Shaq's son is shorter. MJ's sons are shorter. Manute Bol's son is shorter. Ablett Jr is shorter than Ablett SNR.

America is one nation that is getting shorter rather than taller... source Underperformance in affluence: the remarkable relative decline in American heights in the second half of the 20th century by John Komlos and Benjamin Lauderdale.

From memory studies indicate that on average each Australian generation is 4 cm taller than the previous due to improved nutrition environmental factors etc. Given Ablett Senior was 185 cm and his sons Gary and Nathan were 182 and 195 respectively (giving an average height of 188.5) its remarkably spot on.

 

[jackcass]

America is one nation that is getting shorter rather than taller... source Underperformance in affluence: the remarkable relative decline in American heights in the second half of the 20th century by John Komlos and Benjamin Lauderdale.

From memory studies indicate that on average each Australian generation is 4 cm taller than the previous due to improved nutrition environmental factors etc. Given Ablett Senior was 185 cm and his sons Gary and Nathan were 182 and 195 respectively (giving an average height of 188.5) its remarkably spot on.

Is that skewed a bit by changing immigration trends away from predominantly European countries?

 

[Black_White]

Not sure on your point, as I qaa talking about price, but if you were making a point about it being mire than dangerous than a standard hike, did you actually read the article. Deaths are rare and nearly all are the result of altitude sickness or pre-existing conditions.

It’s a risk, more of a risk than some other activities that AFL clubs exclude their players from participating in during off season.

 

[Black_White]

Is that skewed a bit by changing immigration trends away from predominantly European countries?

That and the decades exposure to McDonalds and it’s off shoots.

 

[TradeDraft]

Aaron Sandilands. Played against Cox 15 times, won the hitouts 11/15...

Hitouts is not the Whole Story

 

[ZEV]

Hitouts is not the Whole Story

Its the main one for ruck men...

Don't forget Josh Fraser averaged more disposals, marks, clearances, goals, contested marks and polled Brownlow votes at nearly twice the rate of Darren Jolly.... not sure who you would rather have out of those two?

 

[sr36]

It’s a risk, more of a risk than some other activities that AFL clubs exclude their players from participating in during off season.

Can you give an example of a less risky activity that is banned by Collingwood?

How does it compare to something like surfing in terms of serious injury or death? Without looking at data, I suspect stats for surfing deaths are pretty similar and stats for surfing injuries would be much higher, but I sure as hell hope football clubs don't ban their players from surfing.

 

[Knightmare]

I'm not really convinced you really get the role of a ruckman

It depends on how much value you place on hitouts. Leigh Matthews believes hitouts are the most useful stat in the game.

The reason for this being hitouts aren't always going to advantage and your side isn't always or even often gaining possession from your hitout.

If you're to assess hitouts. Hitout to advantage v hitout to advantage conceded and results of those outcomes are what would need to be looked at to analyse how effective hitouts were.

Sandilands has the edges in contested possessions, clearances and contested marks per game which are all valuable, but Cox's hitouts could reasonably be around x1.30 had he not shared the ruck duties as much as he did. Further to that, Sandilands playing the past four seasons with Cox retired, you'll find what I'd estimate a doubling of ruck contests which has seen hitout numbers go through the roof with Gawn and Grundy in 2018 both achieving over 1000 hitouts, with Goldstein the only other to do that and similarly doing so after Cox's retirement in 2015.

Sandilands is an all-time great ruckman. Top-10 all time for mine, clearly.

I'm not taking him ahead of Cox though.

Cox's numbers would be much greater than they were had played the same ruck minutes Sandilands has carried. And when West Coast get Nic Naitanui, who at his best is as influential as any ruckman we've seen, he's only playing around 50% gametime through the ruck which does his overall numbers no favours in such comparisons.

 

[Shaneprice97]

Sandilands was/is also extremely handball happy, averaging twice as many handballs to kicks over his career. Great tap ruck and solid but not dominate contested mark. But skill wise isnt on Grundys level, Sandilands simply wasnt capable of some of the bullets Grundy has kicked.

Add more goals and contested marks and Grundys the most complete ruckman the games seen.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

Can you give an example of a less risky activity that is banned by Collingwood?

How does it compare to something like surfing in terms of serious injury or death? Without looking at data, I suspect stats for surfing deaths are pretty similar and stats for surfing injuries would be much higher, but I sure as hell hope football clubs don't ban their players from surfing.

Correct.
Let’s stop players getting in cars.

Life has risk. Activity has risk.

Hiking in the Himalayas sounds wonderful for life experience and has residual health aspects you’d think.

Knees and jerking might be reaction of some; id back Brodie myself.

 

[jackcass]

Hitouts is not the Whole Story

Sandi's hit outs to advantage though would be pretty handy, and they're the critical aspect around hit outs.

 

[TradeDraft]

Sandi's hit outs to advantage though would be pretty handy, and they're the critical aspect around hit outs.

True but I remember Sandi did struggle with hitouts to Advantage early in his Career and also other Teams Roving to his Taps

 

[ZEV]

I remember he was close to best on ground the last two times he played us...

 

[Soups]

 

[Shaneprice97]

To be honest Ned guy talks abit of sh*t, and has said a few things i don’t agree with. Grundy isn’t the only ruckman in the AFL playing big minutes in the ruck, Gawn? No surprise they were both AA.

Plus we have Cox for support unlike some other teams, shouldn’t even be a talking point? A fit Elliott with his marking ability also probably lets us play Cox more in the ruck.

 

[Saintly Viewed]

To be honest Ned guy talks abit of sh*t, and has said a few things i don’t agree with. Grundy isn’t the only ruckman in the AFL playing big minutes in the ruck, Gawn? No surprise they were both AA.

Plus we have Cox for support unlike some other teams, shouldn’t even be a talking point? A fit Elliott with his marking ability also probably lets us play Cox more in the ruck.

And I’d include for some ruck minutes for Darcy Moore, especially down back at an occasional throw in.

We are blessed with three players really capable of ensuring ruck dominance.

Say Dunn is out injured and Roughead plays we can add him for a few minutes.
Though I’m hoping we do that well that Roughead remains vital in our VFL side.

 

[Soups]

To be honest Ned guy talks abit of sh*t, and has said a few things i don’t agree with. Grundy isn’t the only ruckman in the AFL playing big minutes in the ruck, Gawn? No surprise they were both AA.

Plus we have Cox for support unlike some other teams, shouldn’t even be a talking point? A fit Elliott with his marking ability also probably lets us play Cox more in the ruck.

Yeah I thought it was an interesting paragraph. He’s one of the fittest big men in the game imo. While I don’t think he’ll be able to do it forever, the blokes in his prime and will be doing everything he can to get us over the line.