brown not the answer

[darren waitee]

While I am unhappy with the current board and the mess they have made and the treatment of Denis Pagan Fraser Brown is not the answer
Voting out the board in December means the sacking of Denis Pagan then what the months of looking for a coach or what Ratten SOS Mitchell all unknown at coaching levels
Remember the saying it is better the devil you know and while the current board will get a shake up at the AGM Fraser Brown is not the answer
Take your blackmailing money Fraser and find yourself another football club to hold to ransom

 

[navier-stokes equation]

If Brown comes in, sacks pagan and appoints ratten/one of his mates I won't be happy

If Brown comes in, sacks pagan and goes through a process in order to get the best possible candidate then I'll be happy

 

[darren waitee]

how can he do that in december look at where st kilda is now no one running the ship

 

[Jimthegreat]

While I am unhappy with the current board and the mess they have made and the treatment of Denis Pagan Fraser Brown is not the answer
Voting out the board in December means the sacking of Denis Pagan then what the months of looking for a coach or what Ratten SOS Mitchell all unknown at coaching levels
Remember the saying it is better the devil you know and while the current board will get a shake up at the AGM Fraser Brown is not the answer
Take your blackmailing money Fraser and find yourself another football club to hold to ransom

You'd be kidding wouldn't you. You prefer what we have? Only an idiot would want that. Fraser gives us the chance to start again. What other options are there in the short term. The only way to sort this out is "crash the lot" and start again. Board, coaching, everything. Get a new start and something stable. Anything close to our current situation we have now will be an absolute disaster. If Fraser's money can achieve that we can only be better off. The "Fish rots at the Heads" so let's sort out the Board and that useless coach of ours. One way to help things is to get wins on the board. Things are remarkably alot better when that happens.

 

[drusswaylander]

Possibly not, but we need to see who they nominate as they could be Getting a board working in the same direction would help the club move on and help us in the marketplace. Brown has been part of that destabilisation and that has been unfortunate, but we need a United front now and one faction or another must be seen to win. Smorgan is not the leader we need and while he is in charge the infighting will go on

 

[barnesy]

At the end of the day, most of this is subjective.

How do any of us know specifics of the current board and the potential challenger.

The only objective thing about the current board is what we saw the other week over Pagan, and that was ****.

Even though Brown might be organising the ticket, who is too say thet he would be on the board etc, he may just help get pieces in place.

The time is now if it is too happen, so we can sought out this **** before next year.

This is a great chance for the blues too get their **** together and build a good list, but how can the club do that when they can't even get some of our young guys signed up.

I sit on the fence about Pagan as coach, with slight lean towards him going. I don't like the way he has been treated in recent weeks, but I do see that many of the recylcled players selected over 4 years have got us knowhere.

My preference is for him too be much more media / selling the club friendly, and that's what we need now, a big picture painted, and we haven't got it.

If the new ticket funds an EGM, a payout of Pagan if that's their desire, and can reduce the debt by a million too start well that's a big bonus for me, and then obviously they need to be able too get our club on track pronto.

If it happens it better happen soon.

 

[bibi01]

Firstly, I don't agree with everything pagan does, but he has been there and doen that and I support him as carlton coach

I don't agree or like the way the current board has gone about their work, IMO it is very unprofessional and disjointed.

If Fraser Brown's ticket comes along and gains power in the elections, well that is upto the members to decide.

If Fraser Brown's ticket sacks pagan, then while every member of that ticket is still on the carlton board, they will not get 1 cent of my money
no membership, no match day raffel and no purchasing or merchandise.

You may this is un carlton and I should go follow richmond.

The reason Fraser Brown's ticket won't get any monmy out of me if they sack pagan is that obviously his ticket will not need my money

if they can find 1.2 million to pay out a coach, then surely my few hundred bucks won't make a difference

Questions I have for Fraser Brown-

for the last 5 years if not longer we have been in serious financial trouble, where was your money been then?
where was your sponsorship of the club?
what was your support of the club at the end of 2002 when we got our penalties?

When a club is struggling financially they run to the supporters, saying we need your help
Supporters and members are constantly told we need you through thick and thin, but this doesn't seem to apply for ex players.

If Fraser Brown's ticket can throw away 1.2 million, then clearly they can do without membership and the money it brings in.

If Fraser Brown's ticket was serious about helping carlton they would match dollar for dollar the money the afl has provided to save carlton
they would set about improving the resources and facilities at the club.

Now for 2007

we will improve, we saw signs of improvement in 2006, we will add 3 more top 20 picks, our 3 top 20 picks of the last draft will be 1 year older, stronger, fitter and have 12 months afl experience under their belt

we also have access via PSD to 1 uncontracted player

2007 and beyond will be better years

pagan and the palyers have done the hard yards (yeah there is still some tough road ahead) but we have got through most of the hard work and we are about to start seeing the rewards.

If a new coach comes in and takes over from pagan they will be getting credit for pagan's work
the board may also good as our fortunes have turned around

but will this provide us a true reflection of how good these people actually are as they have not been there during the worst of it and are jumping on board once we start heading in the right direction.

Lets remember st kilda had a gun coach with top line picks, then they sacked him and put in their mates
5 1/2 years later have not won a premiership, thay have not even made a GF
thay have now sacked their mate and their window of opportunity is closing.

 

[marcmurphy3]

I really don't want all this starting up again. I think a sacking the whole board and Pagan would be a big step backwards. If Brown does want to out the board though, he should do it now. If he does it in December and we have to go looking for a new coach he will stuff up the pre-season and we may as well write off next year. If all this nonsense doen't stop soon we may actually lose some of the Murphy's and the Simpson's.

 

[bibi01]

I really don't want all this starting up again but if Brown wants to out the board he should do it now. If he does it in December and we have to go looking for a new coach he will stuff up the pre-season and we may as well write off next year. If all this nonsense doen't stop soon we may actually lose some of the Murphy's and the Simpson's.

spot on there is a time and place to do things like this

during pre-season and draft/trade time is not the time to do these things

not to mention we have a host of players out of contract and all these shananigans would be noting to instill confidence in the players to comitt to carlton.

 

[HBF]

I'd like to see the names of the people Brown has supposedly gotten together to run another ticket for the Carlton board. That I wouldn't mind as it needs to be done as Smorgon and the current board are just not cutting the mustard at this stage.

As for the coach, he'd have to stay. No one would be that stupid to sack a coach in December, and then expect to have a new coach come in and wave the magic stick and for everything to be ok.

 

[jj1978]

We're all p'd off about board leaks etc etc....

Now how the frack did all this come about??? ( if it is true??? one wonders ).

If Brown and Co been leaking it, than it shows he aint much better than the current board.

If our current board leaked it in an attempt to make the challengers look bad, then all of them including Kernahan and Gleason can go to hell and have my foot lodged up their backside permanently.

At this point in time I'd almost be happy for the AFL to step in and do something. Lord Demetriou Vader may be frackhead at times but if he gets his hands on this mess at least we'll know what the frack is going on.

If none of this is true and it's all been created by certain journalists, I think CFC board and Brown should team together to hunt down those frackers and sue their butts off.

 

[drusswaylander]

The recruiting people are the ones handling the draft and would quickly bring a new coach up to speed. Pagan is not being allowed to run the footy dept how he wants anyway If they are going to do it it needs to be done quickly as to be honest there is never a right time for this sort of thing. If it will stop all the uncertainty, stop the bitching and give us a leadership with a common vision for the club that is tenable and are willing to show the balls to back up their convictions I am all for it

 

[Bee Vee]

Questions I have for Fraser Brown-

for the last 5 years if not longer we have been in serious financial trouble, where was your money been then?
where was your sponsorship of the club?
what was your support of the club at the end of 2002 when we got our penalties?

An ex player is offering his hard earned money to help the club and you're whinging about it.
Ask yourself the same questions.

What have you contributed the last 5 years?
How do you know Brown hasnt contributed more than you?
What plans do you have to get us out of our current predicament?

Put your head in the sand with Darren Waitee and keep your 100 bucks.

 

[deluxeman]

IF Brown comes into power in December, I think he'll hold off on sacking Pagan. Draft picks will already be decided and the list complete. Therefore I expect him to hire his assistant coaches and send a clear message to Pagan that if after 8-12 rounds, he sitting on 1 or 2 wins his time is up.

 

[bibi01]

An ex player is offering his hard earned money to help the club and you're whinging about it.
Ask yourself the same questions.

What have you contributed the last 5 years?
How do you know Brown hasnt contributed more than you?
What plans do you have to get us out of our current predicament?

Put your head in the sand with Darren Waitee and keep your 100 bucks.

how do you know fraser brown has contributed anything?

its not about who has more money and who has put in more

last 5 years:
yearly membership
match day raffle at all home games
merchandise purchases every year
attending carlton events

i put in as much in as I can afford

its not simply about the money on offer, its is the way things are bening handled and the stipulations in place.

1.2 million
would be better spent on reducing debt, increasing facilities, increasing resources so we can compete

if fraser brown really wanted to help carlton he wouldn't be trying to hold the club to ransom to get his way.

i'll give you money if you sack the coach
stuff that we are in debt, put your money in regardless.

sacking the coach to put in your mates does not guarante success.

ask someone to help you read and understand what i originally wrote and it might make some sense.

there is a right way to go about things and a wrong way to go about things and IMO fraser brown has gone about things in the wrong way.

John Elliott thought he was doing the best thing for the club, while in reality he contributed to bringing the club to its knee's.

i am not in a financial position to help more than i currently do, but i am still intitled to my opinion and just because someone has more money than me does not mean they are correct and I should conform to their way of thinking.

currently my '100' bucks come with no strings attached, but if fraser brown wants to play the 'strinsg attached' game then he should expect people to say 'stuff you fraser'

 

[Bee Vee]

how do you know fraser brown has contributed anything?

I dont.
He may have given nothing, he may have given thousands.
That's the point.

You're the one making the assumptions.

 

[Bluebear]

The recruiting people are the ones handling the draft and would quickly bring a new coach up to speed. Pagan is not being allowed to run the footy dept how he wants anyway If they are going to do it it needs to be done quickly as to be honest there is never a right time for this sort of thing. If it will stop all the uncertainty, stop the bitching and give us a leadership with a common vision for the club that is tenable and are willing to show the balls to back up their convictions I am all for it

This first bit is an absolute crock. While the recruiting managers compile profiles of who they think can play, who do they present this to? Who says, gee we really need a......whatever.....head coach/coaching staff thats who.
While Pagan's deputies have been offloaded, don't kid yourself into believing the media hype about having no control. He would walk down to Morrabbin if that was the case.....or back to the Roos, and they would love him (go on.....highlight this and say good riddence....I know ya want to....).

There is a right time to sack the coach.....and its exactly when it looked like it was going to happen. 1-2 weeks after the season, certainly before the end of September. Clubs go on hols largely now and in October. The head coach SHOULD be responsible for managing the list NOW....telling his recruiting staff where our most urgen tneeds are and comparing that to the talent available. NO OTHER SCENARIO MAKES ANY SENSE AT ALL:

like - heres your new gun forward recruit and his mate from the midfield........but I need a defender and a ruck....oh well Bullants will have a good year then.

December is too late. It should be now to let a new coach mould his list to HIS (or her) gameplan to have the best shot....and allow the team to come back fresh for the start of pre-season in November. Waiting till d=December will only destabilise pre-season and be very disruptive. We need to take our medicine now, for 11 months. If we hit Rd 14 and we are on 2 wins with poor prospects of any more then he may go and I won't complain, but why derail the club in December. This makes no sense.

Agree with all comments re Brown and how he could use his money:
- provide new recruiting positions in WA and SA (to help compete picking up gun rookies as per Crows and WC)
- help upgrade current facilities
- add specialty coaches to pre-season for each group (mids, fwds, backs) to work on skills+++ over and above current coaches (mainly work on tactics)
- Just some suggestions

 

[Bee Vee]

This first bit is an absolute crock. While the recruiting managers compile profiles of who they think can play, who do they present this to? Who says, gee we really need a......whatever.....head coach/coaching staff thats who.
While Pagan's deputies have been offloaded, don't kid yourself into believing the media hype about having no control. He would walk down to Morrabbin if that was the case.....or back to the Roos, and they would love him (go on.....highlight this and say good riddence....I know ya want to....).

If this is your entire premise for retaining the coach, we may as well let him go.
Pagan has repeatedly stated that the recruiting manager chooses the draftees.
According to Pagan, Wayne Hughes has watched the players, collated all the data and he is in the best position to decide.

Nice guess but completely wrong.

 

[one_twelve112]

It would be a pretty stupid question if Brown was the answer....

 

[darren waitee]

if brown gets in pagan goes that is as clear as day

 

[Bee Vee]

if brown gets in pagan goes that is as clear as day

Even better.

 

[drusswaylander]

This first bit is an absolute crock. While the recruiting managers compile profiles of who they think can play, who do they present this to? Who says, gee we really need a......whatever.....head coach/coaching staff thats who.
While Pagan's deputies have been offloaded, don't kid yourself into believing the media hype about having no control. He would walk down to Morrabbin if that was the case.....or back to the Roos, and they would love him (go on.....highlight this and say good riddence....I know ya want to....).

There is a right time to sack the coach.....and its exactly when it looked like it was going to happen. 1-2 weeks after the season, certainly before the end of September. Clubs go on hols largely now and in October. The head coach SHOULD be responsible for managing the list NOW....telling his recruiting staff where our most urgen tneeds are and comparing that to the talent available. NO OTHER SCENARIO MAKES ANY SENSE AT ALL:

• Keep your shirt on mate, where did that unload come from The recruiting staff are the ones who watch these players day in day out. Thats why they hire them so that the coach doesn't have to do it. In many cases it is the recruiting bloke who has the say and they just recruit the best player available at certain picks. A new coach could be brought up to speed very quickly.

• Most coaches in the past have been sacked during the season so the new coach has had no say in the current list development or even tactics training etc etc so I am not sure what you are on about there

• Why would I say good riddance. You are just having a go now I actually didn't think getting rid of Pagan was a good idea especially with such a large payout. To be honest I feel sorry for the bloke as he hasn't had a fair go because we have had such a poor list and the club has been a mess.
• The problem is how can his heart be in the job after the way he has been treated. The money is the only thing keeping him at the club now and with his shabby treatment who could blame him for that. His relationship with management is shot and it can't help our club going forward if the footy dept and the admin have a dysfunctional relationship.
• I would have preferred all this post season rubbish to be handled properly, but it hasn't and the only way I can see us going forward with any sort of unity is with a board change. Unfortunately that means a coaching change as well, because of who would be coming in So don't put words in my mouth mate as I am not delighted at how Pagan has been treated at all It is just looking at the reality of the situation. I bet Pagan would be happy to take the money and run as I can't see that he would have enjoyed himself much

 

[Bluebear]

Keep your shirt on mate, where did that unload come from The recruiting staff are the ones who watch these players day in day out. Thats why they hire them so that the coach doesn't have to do it. In many cases it is the recruiting bloke who has the say and they just recruit the best player available at certain picks. A new coach could be brought up to speed very quickly.

The way your post read seemed that you thought the coach had little say in who was picked. I agree that the recruiting staff are there to find and present the best talent, but surely its Pagan and the coaching staff that say....yes, please pick the best avaible backman as we are in need there. Thats all I'm saying.

Most coaches in the past have been sacked during the season so the new coach has had no say in the current list development or even tactics training etc etc so I am not sure what you are on about there

What I am on about is you said there is never a good time to sack the coach......but a BAD time to do it is in the pre-season, providing yet more instability to guys trying to move into a new year. IMO the saints have timed it beautifully (though don't really agree with their decision), as now a new coach can look at the list, discuss with the recruiters what type of player he wants and who might be avaiable, delist those who don't fit his plan etc.
Of course they can sack him at any stage......i just think now is better than in December for the sake of the club, supporters and players.

Why would I say good riddance. You are just having a go now I actually didn't think getting rid of Pagan was a good idea especially with such a large payout. To be honest I feel sorry for the bloke as he hasn't had a fair go because we have had such a poor list and the club has been a mess.

This wasn't aimed at you, but the comment was likely to attract that retort from some fellow BF posters (JTG I know you're out there)

The problem is how can his heart be in the job after the way he has been treated. The money is the only thing keeping him at the club now and with his shabby treatment who could blame him for that. His relationship with management is shot and it can't help our club going forward if the footy dept and the admin have a dysfunctional relationship.

I don't think he would stay for the money. I think its pride. Pagan is a very proud man and could have walked away when black Friday occured, saying he knew nothing of the penalties and didn't want the job. No-one could have blamed him either. He stayed - yes because he was being paid loads, but I thnk he liked the challenge - he has allowed his reputation to be destroyed and I think he wants to show everyone he can still do it. Right know it up to results next year. if he gets them then board members should go, if he doesn't then he will go, pure and simple.

So don't put words in my mouth mate as I am not delighted at how Pagan has been treated at all

Not sure where I accused you of this.

 

[navier-stokes equation]

Pagan is not being allowed to run the footy dept how he wants anyway

Should we let him draft Gardiner after drafting the likes of McLaren, Bryan, Deluca and Mott?

FFS use some logic...........the board are stepping in because the main man isn't up to it

 

[audas]

Take a look around at who is heading up other clubs. Take a look at who we have at carlton. Fraser Brown leading the Blues would be an absolute disaster. This guy is a total and complete moron. He is a thug, a bully, and lacks any credibility as a civilised individual. I would be about as ashamed of carlton under him as John Elliot. The mere consideration of Brown is a disgrace.

This guy has a reputation that far exceeds that of One David Rheece Jones, at least Rheece knew it and didnt pretend other-wise. This guy is a snake in the grass. The only assistance we need from Brown is for him to slither of onto the grass and leave us alone.

We have all heard the stories, we have all seen how he behaved as a player, there is not much about this guy that would earn him respect amongst his peers in the AFL.

Eliot should have been enough for people to realise we need upstanding, intelligent law abiding citizens who are an example to us all not, sneaky, nasty little power grabbing, snakes like Brown.

**** Pratt, Smorgan, Fitzpatrick take you pick.

Just NOT brown.