Can Cloke Recapture the Glory Days?

[Bard]

I am starting to become a closet tanker. Now I am flinging open the closet to release my tortured soul. The year is over for me if we lose to St Kilda. Why not look to next year and beyond? Play all the young guys and experiment with game plans. Start watching that Sunday arvo show where a bunch of guys including Terry Wallet talk for what seems eternity about the under 18's.

Or use the pick to grab a ready made champion from another club. Throw in Goldsack as a steak knife. Photoshop Jeremy Cameron in a Collingwood jumper into my new avatar. Suck in my pride and accept that this wooden spoon is not as fearsome as the one with which my mum used to threaten. Coming last for us will be humiliation with an upside.

If Cloke wishes to wallow in mediocrity so be it. A wooden spoon will usher in a long term replacement for him. Given that our players are finished at 30, Cloke will provide protection for a new boy in his first year or support for a more seasoned performer. Problem solved.

Why would you want to get the spoon in a year where the top 3 players are father/sons or academy selections? And when from my knowledge there are no hugely rated KPFs?

It's always stupid to aim to finish last, but this year would be up there with the GCS/GWS draft tampered years as all-time levels of idiocy.

 

[Eric_Melvin]

A lot of good posts and points here. I'd just like to summarise/paraphrase some of other feelings, and my feelings. The reality is, I feel, that the forward delivery over the last 3 years has been atrocious. There's been few times when our forwards have worked cohesively and looked dangerous, mostly due to terrible supply. From pendlebury down, the ability to hit a target has been poor. It's not clokes fault he has to wrestle 3 blokes and get beaten when it gets bombed in so slowly. Fix our delivery, get better output from cloke, and others. I genuinely feel this has been an Achilles heel for at least 3 seasons.

 

[Eric_Melvin]

I am starting to become a closet tanker. Now I am flinging open the closet to release my tortured soul. The year is over for me if we lose to St Kilda. Why not look to next year and beyond? Play all the young guys and experiment with game plans. Start watching that Sunday arvo show where a bunch of guys including Terry Wallet talk for what seems eternity about the under 18's.

Or use the pick to grab a ready made champion from another club. Throw in Goldsack as a steak knife. Photoshop Jeremy Cameron in a Collingwood jumper into my new avatar. Suck in my pride and accept that this wooden spoon is not as fearsome as the one with which my mum used to threaten. Coming last for us will be humiliation with an upside.

If Cloke wishes to wallow in mediocrity so be it. A wooden spoon will usher in a long term replacement for him. Given that our players are finished at 30, Cloke will provide protection for a new boy in his first year or support for a more seasoned performer. Problem solved.

Jeebus... It's only rd3!

 

[TheGreatGrundy]

A lot of good posts and points here. I'd just like to summarise/paraphrase some of other feelings, and my feelings. The reality is, I feel, that the forward delivery over the last 3 years has been atrocious. There's been few times when our forwards have worked cohesively and looked dangerous, mostly due to terrible supply. From pendlebury down, the ability to hit a target has been poor. It's not clokes fault he has to wrestle 3 blokes and get beaten when it gets bombed in so slowly. Fix our delivery, get better output from cloke, and others. I genuinely feel this has been an Achilles heel for at least 3 seasons.

Can we use pick 1 or 2 on an established midfielder with elite disposal skills capable of targeting Cloke's chest?

 

[Eric_Melvin]

Can we use pick 1 or 2 on an established midfielder with elite disposal skills capable of targeting Cloke's chest?

Damn right we can. But not if we have to tank to get it.

 

[iGNITER]

2 goals 3 and 2 oobf.

I never specified whether it was goals or behinds

 

[Kilmo]

Kennedy Franklin Roughhead Boyd Cameron Gunston Walker Tippett Riewoldt Riewoldt Danniher Pavlich Hawkins Schulz just off the top of my head. Would quickly swap Cloke for any of em.

In terms of our own list? Well that just shows a very poor recruiting strategy.

Ben Reid if fit possibly, Moore in a few years.

Gunston.... Ugh I feel ill

 

[Gone Critical]

Hate threads like this, sorry Snag. I have a bugbear that footy journos, ex players and BF posters base their views so strongly on last week, last month or last season without opening their eyes and seeing the big picture. Trav Cloke isn't a champion, only a few get that tag for me but he has long term now been a very good KPF. He has been in the top few of his generation. He has had 2 "champion seasons" in the 10 he has completed and been very good in most others. Had a down year last year when hampered by carrying injury and poor delivery. But it was only the season be forehead one of his 2 champion seasons

I'llgive you the news almost everybody, except maybe GAJ amd Swanny for a while, fluctuates in form season to season. Cloke had a great season 2013 it's not as though he has had a prolonged form slump. 2015 is young, give him a chance and he may yet have a stellar season. At 28 he can still be a major asset for a while yet.

 

[TW Sherrin]

Doesn't get 1 on 1 when he's camped close to goals.

Not all the time obviously but he gets enough chances and I doubt he is 50/50.

 

[Brad Goodman]

I really like Travis Cloke, but for his a career as a whole I don't think he has delivered on his potential.

He should retire as the second best key forward of his generation (Buddy is on a different level) but he won't. It's due to a number of factors mostly out of his control, but it is what it is.

 

[JackoSpades]

Times change, teams change.
We need to change how we utilise Cloke.
I am no footy brain but even I can see the current setup is not working, wether we don't have the skill, players etc to benefit from Cloke playing deep is obvious. Bucks needs to be inventive change stuff and find away to get Cloke into games. Otherwise Cloke is going to rot in the current setup.

 

[cleomenes]

Cloke's utilization has changed as so many have requested. Now let's see how that pans out. (Well so far). He is a good player. He has some weaknesses, but every good player does. It makes no sense to dispose of a good player when you have no replacement. That mistake has been made with dawes and others already and cannot be repeated.

 

[jmac70]

Yes.

Here's how:

1. Move him back to Centre Half Forward and keep him there! Cloke is still in his prime, and his prime asset for a big man (besides his contested marking prowess) is his running ability. At a time when the ability to run has never been so important an asset in football as it is now, Cloke should be in his element running defenders into the ground. Instead, under Nathan Buckley, Cloke has been anchored deep in the forward 50, to be scragged and hung off like decorations on a Christmas tree. His best football has come at Centre Half Forward, where he can use his ability to run as a weapon to wear down his direct opponent, so that when he does push back toward goal, he is doing so on a b-ggered key backman. At age 28, he is not old enough yet to be forced to play from the goal square, so while he can still run, let him use this asset!

We notably saw a glimpse of this against Brisbane, when Cloke was allowed to run at CHF. It made our forward line work so much better. See how him getting up the ground opened up space behind him? Space which was then available for Cloke to push back into when he ran his defender around. We need to stick with this. Playing Cloke at CHF is, I believe, the most crucial step to getting him kicking 50-60 goals again.

2. Find that dependable 2nd key forward and play him deep. It's no coincidence that in Cloke's 4 best years, as measured by goals kicked, marks taken and general structural value to the side (2007, 2010, 2011 and 2013), he had that dependable 2nd key forward playing as a deep target. The 'solid sidekick', as I like to call them. They don't need to be superstars (although we certainly wouldn't say no if they were!), just dependable enough to take the 2nd defender and perform to an adequate standard as marking targets and goal kickers. In 2010/2011, that partner was Chris Dawes, source of a fair amount of angst on this board, but in those 2 years was competent enough to fill that void. In 2013, especially in the 2nd half of that season, it was Ben Reid, while Quinten Lynch had some early success as well which sadly didn't continue (for reasons I'll touch on below). And in 2007, the year Cloke won a Copeland Trophy at age 20, it was Anthony Rocca.

Do we have that 2nd dependable deep forward? To an extent, yes. Is it a rejuvenated Ben Reid? Is it Jesse White finally making good on his potential and making that form he showed in the 2nd half of 2013 as a proper key forward the standard? Is it Patrick Karnezis, translating his sterling 2014 VFL form as a key forward into the AFL? Is it Corey Gault arriving in what looms as a make-or-break year? Or does it come in the form of someone else, a blooding of Darcy Moore or a wildcard move of Brodie Grundy or Jarrod Witts to full forward?

For me, if it isn't Jesse White coming good, then as much as I do like the idea of him back to stiffen an inexperienced defence, practical reality commands that Reid play forward. If Reid can't be relied on with his body and White doesn't cut the mustard, then take a chance on Gault or Moore. They might be inexperienced, but getting those early games into them will reap dividends when their time comes to take over as our lynchpin(s). Karnezis has shone when playing as a key forward at VFL level, but that's generally because he is on smaller/less experienced/less talented backmen. Can he translate that to AFL level, playing AFL standard 2nd defenders? Only playing him will give us the answer.

3. Go back to the 3 talls setup and stick with it. This is the structure which underpinned a side that won a flag in 2010, made it to another Grand Final in 2011, a preliminary final in 2012 and helped us get the car going again in the 2nd half of 2013. In 2010 and 2011, that 3rd tall (who does the relief ruckwork as well) was Leigh Brown. In 2012, Chris Dawes had his best games playing this role in that meager season when he had the 2nd dependable key forward to release him (either Chris Tarrant, Ben Reid or, for a couple of games, Jackson Paine). In 2013, with Cloke and Reid holding the key posts, our structure (and Cloke in particular) worked so much better when our designated Leigh Brown clone was either Quinten Lynch, or a rotation of Jarrod Witts and Brodie Grundy working in tandem.

By contrast, when we 'down-sized' this position and went to a '2 talls, 4 smalls/others' forward setup, the 2nd key forward had to effectively shoulder the workload of two men and crumbled accordingly. It was a task that was beyond Chris Dawes, that ruined Quinten Lynch arguably before his time had come and saw Jesse White dropped twice in the back half of 2014. It is a structure that just doesn't work, bar maybe a sopping wet day when the conditions force you to play smalls and hard nuts. A return to a proper 3 talls structure is, in my view, an essential ingredient to getting Travis Cloke back to his best, because it reduces the workload on both him and his sidekick in the 2nd forward role (and in the case of guys like Ben Reid, it is necessary because they can't play ruck!)

Do we have that usable 3rd tall on our current list? Possibly. It is a physically demanding role, even for an elite AFL footballer. You have to cover territory like a Centre Half Forward does, but also take the relieving ruck duties, a position which is hard enough for the specialist rucks to play let alone the pinch hitters! You also have to be able to fill in for one of the 2 main key forwards when they take a spell. There's a reason why the term 'sh*t-truck' gained currency during Leigh Brown's time: you have to be the Clydesdale to the key forwards' stallions, with none of the affection that those lumbering cart-pulling horses get from the masses. You do the unglamorous work, so that the 2 main key forwards have the freedom to do theirs.

From our available stocks, we could either go down the path of Jesse White, or use one of the 2 young rucks instead (of the 2 I'd go with Grundy for reasons of age/balancing the mobility of the front half, but Witts would spend time forward in that setup as well, so it's much of a muchness), or deploy Gault (he plays this position the best when in the VFL) or take a chance on a young Darcy Moore. Of all these, I can definitely see either of the first 2 options (White or Grundy) working. Indeed, in the first half of 2014, our forward line worked much better than in the 2nd half of that season because we had 2 key forwards and one of the young rucks in the front half (still didn't produce 100 point+ scores, but worked a hell of a lot better than the alternative!). Gault is that next option in line, if we don't try him in the 2nd forward slot, while Moore is appealing on paper, but is perhaps best used as a specialist forward if we play him, if only to save him from the battering of playing relief ruck.

4. Most importantly, improve the delivery! And short of the noted butchers cleaning up their acts and becoming adequate (at a bare minimum) users of the ball, that means picking blokes who can kick! That means getting the Seedsmans, the Scharenbergs, the Broomheads, the Oxleys, even the Youngs all up and running and into the senior side. That means playing the De Goeys and the Maynards when they have the requisite fitness. And if guys like Varcoe and Crisp and Goldsack and Williams and Adams could all bring their standard of footskills up from poor to middle-of-the-road (even just that), well, then that would be a welcome improvement as well.

Sadly, injury management and recovery are key in this step, as they are with other things. Scharenberg (quite rightly) will not be rushed into the side and he's a kid anyway, Seedsman will take a while to get back to form and fitness, Pendlebury may not even play on Friday or if he does, will be playing under duress and has not looked quite himself of late, and Sidebottom's hand won't heal any faster.

There are other elements that we can address, but just addressing these five would see (I believe) Travis Cloke firing again like in the good old days, which in turn makes us a much better side.

Okay, rant/treatise over.

Swing away...

Great post MB. I really like the three tall set up and ideally would go with Cloke, White and Grundy.

 

[frizzle]

I reckon our current game plan (very low scoring) would be difficult for any power forward.
Trav doesn't help though. Needs to run his opponent off his legs & not try to wrestle all the time.
The fact that after all this time he still can't kick to save himself is a stain on our coaches throughout his career. Past & present.
I do agree with others that CHF is his best bet as it gives him space to run around in & harder for opposition coaches to devise plans to double team him.

 

[Cousin of Daicos]

He looks out of sorts at the minute.

They need a hypnotist to get in his head to sort out his mental demons in front of goal. His inaccuracy is the one thing holding him back from being seen as essentially THE premier forward in the game.

The umpires are playing a role too. It's really f**king annoying to see that defenders can do literally what they want to him and get away with it.

 

[cakewalk06]

Two weeks in and this?

Cloke was outstanding against Brisbane. Just because he does not kick a bag it does not mean he had a bad game. He was double teamed all night but often held the ball in with pressure, strength and second efforts.
Was the dominant force on the ground in the first half.
What chance did he have against Adelaide in such a baldly beaten side?
Nothing to see here...

 

[domin8tors]

He has his flag and his big contract. Travis doesn't strike me as someone who has the urgency he had earlier in his career.

I take it that you didn't watch the Adelaide game. ? there is probably no one on our list that shows more passion and want for the contest on the field then Cloke

 

[Snag Breac]

Two weeks in and this?

Cloke was outstanding against Brisbane. Just because he does not kick a bag it does not mean he had a bad game. He was double teamed all night but often held the ball in with pressure, strength and second efforts.
Was the dominant force on the ground in the first half.
What chance did he have against Adelaide in such a baldly beaten side?
Nothing to see here...

I trust the OP was more realistic than critical of Cloke. It's not about the past 2 weeks; for all the reasons I've listed and perhaps more, he hasn't realised his potential for a while. I'm interested in solutions. I appreciate the thoughtful responses.

 

[domin8tors]

Cloke's utilization has changed as so many have requested. Now let's see how that pans out. (Well so far). He is a good player. He has some weaknesses, but every good player does. It makes no sense to dispose of a good player when you have no replacement. That mistake has been made with dawes and others already and cannot be repeated.

Dawes was handy but not good. the notion that he will fix all our problems is a joke. yes he has missed games. but he has kicked 32 goals in 2 years at Melbourne and none this year. given that we got I think it was Broomhead ( might have been Grundy ) out of this deal we are well infront. Jessie White is playing terrible football last year but still managed 20 goals and relief in the ruck. and given what he has shown already this year he is on track for a 40+ goal season.

 

[Kynge of Begrem]

I am shocked by this seemingly negative post from you

Join date Oct 14, no way would you be a troll

>2,500 posts in that time...seems legit...

 

[Soaring Magpie]

Play white and the resting ruck deep, allowing Cloke to roam up the ground. His two best seasons were him playing at CHF. Play him there and and he will be much much better. Let him roam and get his confidence up, when confident he is very hard to beat. He is probably the biggest confidence player in the league

 

[Mugavin]

Cloke was virtually unmatchable when he had Reid alongside him the forward line.

 

[Gone Critical]

Cloke was virtually unmatchable when he had Reid alongside him the forward line.

Yet that only occurred in 2013 from round 15 and Clokes stats didn't change much after that move, he was already well on his way to an AA gig that year.

 

[Good_Old]

If we can get him some decent support and delivery of the ball, why not?

 

[JB1975]

He has his flag and his big contract. Travis doesn't strike me as someone who has the urgency he had earlier in his career.

I'm not sure I should bother responding to this, but here I go.

What would be evidence of requisite 'urgency'? He's as fit as he's ever been, he runs himself as ragged as he ever has, goes through most games with 3 defenders hanging off him, and no player on the field wears his heart and his frustrations as openly as Cloke. Every f****** week. Sure, I'd like him to fit the ball through the big sticks a bit more, but I'm not going to doubt his 'urgency', whatever the f*** is meant by your sniffling use of that term.