Expansion Canberra

[Badger17]

I don't understand the need for an "indigenous team" at all.

Linking indigenous development to a single team not only comes off as very forced and tokenistic, but it's pretty discriminatory on face value. Furthermore indigenous participation should be the responsibility of all clubs, not just one designated club. Better yet, participation of anyone and everyone should be the responsibility of all clubs full stop and race, ethnicity, culture, or any other immutable characteristics, shouldn't really come into the discussion at all.

Super Rugby has tried this sort of thing with Moana Pasifika, who are literally a team for Polynesians who are eligible to represent the islands, and it's been a disaster. It's pretty obvious why it's a disaster as well; by designing a product exclusively for a minority ethnic/racial group you're intentionally turning away the majority of the customer base who aren't members of said group. It's not only dumb, but frankly racist, and nobody would find it socially acceptable if the roles were reversed and there was a Pakeha team that was ostensibly created to increase their representation for example.

 

[Colonial]

I don’t want another region to be “partners” with.
I don’t want to CU in the NT.

Western Sydney to be won over enough to build our niche/peace of the pie needs to be full time.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I don’t want another region to be “partners” with.
I don’t want to CU in the NT.

Western Sydney to be won over enough to build our niche/peace of the pie needs to be full time.

I get where you're coming from, but I'm not suggesting selling any games. 11 home games in Sydney, away games in the NT, like the Suns have played away games in Cairns.

Gaining access to the NT is the best solution I can see to the Giants losing access to Canberra and the Riverina.

 

[Colonial]

Gaining access to the NT is the best solution I can see to the Giants losing access to Canberra and the Riverina.

Actually losing Canberra would force the club to concentrate on Western Sydney so that would be the best solution in my opinion

 

[Canberra Pear]

Actually losing Canberra would force the club to concentrate on Western Sydney so that would be the best solution in my opinion

I absolutely agree in terms of off-field.

But player development in Western Sydney is a slow burn, and I don't think the region will be consistently providing players by the time Team 20 comes in.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Ha! Let’s see who gets the last word.

What rhetoric are you referring to? All I have heard is Gil at the time of announcement saying we could end up with 18 or 20 teams (walked that reference to 18 back the next day). This is all Dil has said:

No rush to decide on further expansion after Devils inclusion

Andrew Dillon says there is no hurry to make a decision on further expansion after Tasmania join the competition in 2028

www.afl.com.au

There have been no signs from CA that expanding the BBL is on their agenda. Why would they add Canberra? That would give them an odd number of teams which you say is untenable. Where would the 10th team be?

I think a 20th team is inevitable as well, I just think it could be a long, long way off.

BBL byes are a different prospect, with matches almost every night it doesn't have rounds as such and the gap between games in T20 (or cricket) is generally not as important as Australian Football. Tournament play often has quite a difference in rest days between games.

The only reason there wouldn't be a 20th team quickly is that there is a very strong chance Tasmania has the licence pulled before 2040. If Tasmania still looks like being successful off-field 4-5 years in (once the novelty factor is gone), then a 20th team would become inevitable. Canberra or WA3 would be the main options. Dreams of NT or FNQ are "dots on a map" rather than "size of economy" approach.
Canberra has more chance of off-field survival than Tas does - but is still doubtful. NT/FNQ basically none.

 

[Colonial]

I absolutely agree in terms of off-field.

But player development in Western Sydney is a slow burn, and I don't think the region will be consistently providing players by the time Team 20 comes in.

If Canberra was no longer an option, maybe some would.

 

[Coolangatta]

I get where you're coming from, but I'm not suggesting selling any games. 11 home games in Sydney, away games in the NT, like the Suns have played away games in Cairns.

Gaining access to the NT is the best solution I can see to the Giants losing access to Canberra and the Riverina.

Yeah I think the Suns and Giants both should play all their home games in their home city. Much more important for the new clubs. Suns could play away in NQ and Giants away in NT.

And if Canberra could play one away game in the Riverina region, that would be pretty neat.

I would also suggest expanding opening round to cover Newcastle etc and then maybe a VIC club plays a couple homers in Auckland.

 

[Canberra Pear]

If Canberra was no longer an option, maybe some would.

Hopefully the Giants in Western Sydney full-time means more focus on the academy there, but I still think there'll be an awkward transition period.

But only five or six players on the Giants list actually come from Canberra/SNSW, so it shouldn't be too hard to fill with just some creative recruiting.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

Yeah I think the Suns and Giants both should play all their home games in their home city. Much more important for the new clubs. Suns could play away in NQ and Giants away in NT.

And if Canberra could play one away game in the Riverina region, that would be pretty neat.

I would also suggest expanding opening round to cover Newcastle etc and then maybe a VIC club plays a couple homers in Auckland.

Neither Newcastle or Auckland have AFL ready, or near-ready, ovals.
Newcastle #1 might be capable of a pre-season game but player and spectator facilities are below standard (even for alice springs).

Auckland not even that. Eden Park is far too small a playing area, and uses an ICC exemption on historic grounds to even be allowed to host international mens cricket. North Harbour's oval is barely a good club cricket oval, players theoretically could use the rugby facilities at the main stadium in the precinct.
NZ, in the near term at least, is back to the Cake Tin or nothing.

 

[speedpeck23]

I think they're two separate issues.

Greater indigenous recognition is a great bonus, but shouldn't have much bearing on actually choosing where to place a team.

I also think indigenous players get wrongly conflated with the NT.

The NT only made up 18% of Indigenous players last year. There were more from SA and twice as many from WA. A Northwest WA team might be just as deserving of a team if we're basing it on where players come from.

But a solution I think could help is tying the Giants to the NT.

If Canberra enters, the Giants academy will shrink. Simultaneously, the Suns academy is getting too strong, and they'll need to take the NT from them eventually.

Western Sydney has one of the largest indigenous populations in the country. Seven times that of Darwin. But the Giants' playing list doesn't reflect that.

A partnership between the Giants and the NT could cover the gap from Southern NSW and help the Giants' list better reflect their territory.

I don't think the Giants should sell home games, but they could arrange to be the away team in the NT games. Melbourne teams selling games would appreciate dragging away a low-drawing game.

The orange in their guernseys could be ochre for those games.

Greater indigenous recognition is not a "bonus". Its an imperative. NT is simply the state/territory with the highest percentage indigenous population in the nation. For the well heeled people of Canberra to be given preferential recognition in the AFL over NT is a problem that won't go away. NT has a much longer and deeper tradition of Australian Rules than Canberra, in fact all of Australia has a longer tradition of connection to AR than Canberra.

Western Sydney has one of the largest populations of many cultural groups in Australia not only indigenous people....in fact multiculturalism is a key component of the Giants raison d'etre. You are suggesting they re focus and primarily promote themselves as the indigenous club ?

 

[Bjo187]

Greater indigenous recognition is not a "bonus". Its an imperative. NT is simply the state/territory with the highest percentage indigenous population in the nation. For the well heeled people of Canberra to be given preferential recognition in the AFL over NT is a problem that won't go away. NT has a much longer and deeper tradition of Australian Rules than Canberra, in fact all of Australia has a longer tradition of connection to AR than Canberra.

Western Sydney has one of the largest populations of many cultural groups in Australia not only indigenous people....in fact multiculturalism is a key component of the Giants raison d'etre. You are suggesting they re focus and primarily promote themselves as the indigenous club ?

A longer connection than Tom Wills the inventor of the sport that was born in what people now believe to be Canberra?

Also nobody is saying the giants are to be an indigenous only club, but their zone should take the n.t from the suns.

It does a few things, it rebalances the zones coz the gc is producing way more talent now. It gives indigenous kids in Western Sydney some incentive to support the club and maybe more incentive to play the game. It will also help kids from the n.t assimilate into city/afl life better, with more cultural association, familiarity and support for their culture in the w.s area.

The suns can still play 2 games in the n.t if they like, just make 1 against the giants there each year.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Greater indigenous recognition is not a "bonus". Its an imperative. NT is simply the state/territory with the highest percentage indigenous population in the nation. For the well heeled people of Canberra to be given preferential recognition in the AFL over NT is a problem that won't go away. NT has a much longer and deeper tradition of Australian Rules than Canberra, in fact all of Australia has a longer tradition of connection to AR than Canberra.

We've established that the NT can't sustain a team. What do you want Canberra to do about it?

 

[Badger17]

Yeah I think the Suns and Giants both should play all their home games in their home city. Much more important for the new clubs. Suns could play away in NQ and Giants away in NT.

And if Canberra could play one away game in the Riverina region, that would be pretty neat.

I would also suggest expanding opening round to cover Newcastle etc and then maybe a VIC club plays a couple homers in Auckland.

I hate to continually bang on about this, but playing AFL games in the Riverina is a complete non-starter. They don't have the money or facilities to host AFL games.

You could probably get away with the odd preseason game in Wagga, but anything more than that isn't realistic without investment in facilities and significant financial incentives from the NSW government.

 

[Badger17]

Greater indigenous recognition is not a "bonus". Its an imperative. NT is simply the state/territory with the highest percentage indigenous population in the nation. For the well heeled people of Canberra to be given preferential recognition in the AFL over NT is a problem that won't go away. NT has a much longer and deeper tradition of Australian Rules than Canberra, in fact all of Australia has a longer tradition of connection to AR than Canberra.

Western Sydney has one of the largest populations of many cultural groups in Australia not only indigenous people....in fact multiculturalism is a key component of the Giants raison d'etre. You are suggesting they re focus and primarily promote themselves as the indigenous club ?

There's no reason why a Canberra team, or any of the other existing clubs for that matter, couldn't be as effective at increasing "indigenous recognition", whatever you mean by that, in the AFL as an NT side.

The NT having the highest percentage of indigenous people per capita doesn't necessarily mean that a club in the NT would benefit indigenous recognition either. In fact it's almost a given that they'd abandon any strict adherence to that sort of ideological agenda in pursuit of being as competitive as possible.

I reject the idea that indigenous recognition is an imperative as well. In fact it's not even on the list of most important things when it comes to considering locations for expansion. Put simply, it's impossible for a club to increase indigenous recognition if it isn't financially viable.

This sort of tokenistic, race huckster, style of grifting is societal cancer that shouldn't be encouraged anyway. If an NT AFL side ever eventuates it should be a club for all the people of the NT, not a pseudo racial/ethnic team for the indigenous population. You're treading on borderline segregationist, and deeply regressive, ground here.

 

[Coolangatta]

I hate to continually bang on about this, but playing AFL games in the Riverina is a complete non-starter. They don't have the money or facilities to host AFL games.

You could probably get away with the odd preseason game in Wagga, but anything more than that isn't realistic without investment in facilities and significant financial incentives from the NSW government.

Yeah fair enough. In any case, I think a Canberra side should play all its home games there.

As for Auckland and Newcastle, as Howard Littlejohn said they aren’t AFL standard yet.

I’d like to see the Roos take 2 Darwin home games, hosting the Suns and Giants.

Dees could keep hosting an Alice Springs game.

Hawks to host 2 games in Cairns against the Lions and Suns.

I still think if Newcastle ever became viable for hosting you could chuck them into opening round. Auckland could be picked up by the Saints if they become ready.

No reason why some VIC clubs couldn’t sell a game or two to Optus either to give them more games. We already see North doing that.

 

[Howard Littlejohn]

I hate to continually bang on about this, but playing AFL games in the Riverina is a complete non-starter. They don't have the money or facilities to host AFL games.

You could probably get away with the odd preseason game in Wagga, but anything more than that isn't realistic without investment in facilities and significant financial incentives from the NSW government.

There have been pre-seasons games at Robertson's in Wagga, but from what I've seen (only short highlight clips so not the best knowledge), agree, not much more than that would seem viable.

 

[Bjo187]

Lavington in Albury is the obvious one for Canberra, it's not exactly riverina but it's a good population centre to grab fans from and a good sized stadium.

I saw this interesting video on YouTube that popped up for me last night. The guy makes some really good points in here regarding Auckland. The one thing about new Zealand is if they ever tried it would need to be once giants and suns are bedded down and you'd almost need some private funding of expansion or the actual club there to minimise the risk somewhat.

 

[Badger17]

Yeah fair enough. In any case, I think a Canberra side should play all its home games there.

As for Auckland and Newcastle, as Howard Littlejohn said they aren’t AFL standard yet.

I’d like to see the Roos take 2 Darwin home games, hosting the Suns and Giants.

Dees could keep hosting an Alice Springs game.

Hawks to host 2 games in Cairns against the Lions and Suns.

I still think if Newcastle ever became viable for hosting you could chuck them into opening round. Auckland could be picked up by the Saints if they become ready.

No reason why some VIC clubs couldn’t sell a game or two to Optus either to give them more games. We already see North doing that.

Might be waiting a while, but sooner or later a dedicated cricket stadium will be built in Auckland. I can't see a genuinely AFL standard stadium being built in Newcastle any time soon though. There wouldn't be enough demand or the political incentive to make it worth while unless there was an AFL or maybe BBL team in it for them.

I don't really see the point in hosting games in Alice either TBH. It's not like it's ever going to be big enough to have it's own team, or that there's any real value in playing games there.

The only city in the region that isn't getting any AFL content but has a genuinely AFL ready stadium is Wellington. If the AFL is ever serious about NZ they'll have to go back to the Cake Tin, but other than that and the odd one off event I don't really see the point in playing games all over the place just for the sake of it. If anything I think it generally does more harm than good on the whole.

 

[3rd Grade Maggy]

Narranderra has hosted pre-season AFL games before. I think it's rated higher than the Wagga ground.

 

[Badger17]

Lavington in Albury is the obvious one for Canberra, it's not exactly riverina but it's a good population centre to grab fans from and a good sized stadium.

I saw this interesting video on YouTube that popped up for me last night. The guy makes some really good points in here regarding Auckland. The one thing about new Zealand is if they ever tried it would need to be once giants and suns are bedded down and you'd almost need some private funding of expansion or the actual club there to minimise the risk somewhat.

A Canberra side will have enough on it's plate as it is.

Pairing them up with Albury would be making the same mistakes that have been made in Western Sydney without any of the financial incentives.

 

[Bjo187]

A Canberra side will have enough on it's plate as it is.

Pairing them up with Albury would be making the same mistakes that have been made in Western Sydney without any of the financial incentives.

One or two games per year, 3 hour drive away to grab some supporters from a footy friendly area with over 100k population is likely worth it. Particularly since that area will likely be part of their academy.

On the giants, the Canberra deal was good for them initially, it's just worn out it's welcome now the giants are more established. Those Canberra giants fans will likely just switch to a Canberra side too if/when one is introduced, the same can't be said for a place like Albury, which will always be tied to Canberra once support is bedded down there, as they'll never get their own team.

 

[Canberra Pear]

One or two games per year, 3 hour drive away to grab some supporters from a footy friendly area with over 100k population is likely worth it. Particularly since that area will likely be part of their academy.

On the giants, the Canberra deal was good for them initially, it's just worn out it's welcome now the giants are more established. Those Canberra giants fans will likely just switch to a Canberra side too if/when one is introduced, the same can't be said for a place like Albury, which will always be tied to Canberra once support is bedded down there, as they'll never get their own team.

I personally think the Giants partnering with Canberra was also a mistake back then. It gave them identity issues right from the beginning. Canberra always just looked like a lifeboat waiting down the highway.

Albury wouldn't be considered a lifeboat. Canberra will be stronger than the Giants right out of the gate. But I am cautious of replicating the Giants' mistakes and trying to please too many different markets at once. And while it's bigger than Wagga, Albury is less linked to Canberra. It's pretty much equidistant between Manuka and the MCG.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Narranderra has hosted pre-season AFL games before. I think it's rated higher than the Wagga ground.

I know they've got Griffith and Wagga an hour in each direction, but an 11k crowd in a town of 4k is a mighty effort!

 

[Badger17]

One or two games per year, 3 hour drive away to grab some supporters from a footy friendly area with over 100k population is likely worth it. Particularly since that area will likely be part of their academy.

On the giants, the Canberra deal was good for them initially, it's just worn out it's welcome now the giants are more established. Those Canberra giants fans will likely just switch to a Canberra side too if/when one is introduced, the same can't be said for a place like Albury, which will always be tied to Canberra once support is bedded down there, as they'll never get their own team.

Teams in Canberra have tried time and again to access the mythical broader audience in SNSW and it never works, and almost always does them serious damage back home.

The Brumbies in particular have never truly recovered from abandoning their ACT patriots image in 05 to be more "inclusive" of SNSW.

The people in SNSW that are inclined to support a Canberra team will do so irrespective of whether the team plays games in their town. The people who aren't inclined to support a Canberra side won't have their minds changed by the team playing a game or two a season at the public oval down the road. It'll do nothing for juniors or the academy that couldn't be achieved much more effectively through investment into the local grassroots.

Meanwhile back home money and resources that could have been invested locally will be redirected to marketing games in small towns in SNSW. Memberships and season tickets will be devalued by taking the games away, it just generally confuses the clubs branding and identity, and the longer it goes on the more it annoys people.

At best the club could expect maybe a few thousand members who aren't actually supporters of the club, just in it for a deal on tickets, and probably lose just as many genuine supporters back home.

The only reason you'd do it is greed, but I can't see the NSW gov offering a big money deal for a Canberran AFL side to play a couple games in Albury.

I don't agree that the Giants deal with Canberra has been good for them either. I'm sure the money Barr throws at them is nice, but on the whole it's badly hurt the Giants image back home in Sydney and the longer the deal goes on the more it's hurting the AFL's image with the broader public in Canberra as well. The Giant would be in a much better state in Sydney today if the Canberra deal had never happened.