Canberra's own AFL team

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NoobPie

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. They just seem to copy the USA NFL fixed license structure, instead of looking at the EPL model.

You've got no idea kid

The VFL split from the VFA before american football had left the colleges and so its "model" is its own. "looking at the EPL model" is as moronic as talking about "looking at the US Health care model"
 

Tonatopia

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You've got no idea kid

The VFL split from the VFA before american football had left the colleges and so its "model" is its own. "looking at the EPL model" is as moronic as talking about "looking at the US Health care model"
Actually, I'm looking at the English Soccer League for inspiration, not the USA. I think you got your wires crossed.

Our current "HIGHLY REGULATED" system, is arrogant enough to assume that participants from Canberra, Darwin, Hobart, North Tasmania and Cairns, are not entitled to participate in our national competition, and it is feasible with a Divisional competition, which would also open the doors for more regions and teams to enter.

You are also arrogant enough, to believe that you have the right to tell a kid, who and where he should play, obviously in the name of authoritarian equality. This is not consistent with human rights.

Kids should be given the opportunity to play for the club they follow, in the town they live in.

As I said earlier, Freedom ALWAYS wins. So bring it on, you bloody socialist.
 
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kranger

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The GWS Wikipedia page (under ‘facilities’) says that the ACT has a 10-year, $23million agreement with GWS to play 3 regular seasons games in Canberra from 2012.


By my calculation, that would mean 2021 is the last year of that deal. Has the deal been extended?

If a new deal hasn’t been signed yet, should the ACT make any future agreements shorter, to align with Tasmania to enter as the 19th and 20th teams. Similar to how the Tas government is holding off the deals with the Hawks and Kangaroo until more is known about a Tasmanian team?


And then GWS could try and get a deal with the NSW government to take their three games to Newcastle, Wollongong and Central Coast to grow their exposure and the sport.
 

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General Giant

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The GWS Wikipedia page (under ‘facilities’) says that the ACT has a 10-year, $23million agreement with GWS to play 3 regular seasons games in Canberra from 2012.


By my calculation, that would mean 2021 is the last year of that deal. Has the deal been extended?

If a new deal hasn’t been signed yet, should the ACT make any future agreements shorter, to align with Tasmania to enter as the 19th and 20th teams. Similar to how the Tas government is holding off the deals with the Hawks and Kangaroo until more is known about a Tasmanian team?


And then GWS could try and get a deal with the NSW government to take their three games to Newcastle, Wollongong and Central Coast to grow their exposure and the sport.
Last I heard they were in negotiations to keep it going.
 

kranger

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If our capital City with a population over 500,000 people, cant support its own AFL team, when a Stadium already exists, then we seriously need to look at the structure and model of our League.

Its a joke.
Whilst I agree Canberra should have a team, I don’t think those are the metrics to decide if the set up of the League is a joke.

For example, from the big 4 sports leagues in the USA, ignoring Green Bay, the smallest population to host a team is Buffalo with 1.1m and that’s over 100 professional teams.

 

Tonatopia

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Whilst I agree Canberra should have a team, I don’t think those are the metrics to decide if the set up of the League is a joke.

For example, from the big 4 sports leagues in the USA, ignoring Green Bay, the smallest population to host a team is Buffalo with 1.1m and that’s over 100 professional teams.

But Im sure they dont have a City like Melbourne which hosts 8 Top line clubs either.

Better to look at the EPL and their divisional structure, for a comparison into how our game should be structured.
 

threenewpadlocks

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The GWS Wikipedia page (under ‘facilities’) says that the ACT has a 10-year, $23million agreement with GWS to play 3 regular seasons games in Canberra from 2012.


By my calculation, that would mean 2021 is the last year of that deal. Has the deal been extended?
Extended for one year to make up for the fact no games were played there last year.
 

Walshawk

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The GWS Wikipedia page (under ‘facilities’) says that the ACT has a 10-year, $23million agreement with GWS to play 3 regular seasons games in Canberra from 2012.


By my calculation, that would mean 2021 is the last year of that deal. Has the deal been extended?

If a new deal hasn’t been signed yet, should the ACT make any future agreements shorter, to align with Tasmania to enter as the 19th and 20th teams. Similar to how the Tas government is holding off the deals with the Hawks and Kangaroo until more is known about a Tasmanian team?


And then GWS could try and get a deal with the NSW government to take their three games to Newcastle, Wollongong and Central Coast to grow their exposure and the sport.
I reckon they will hold off until after the Tas decision. If Tas gets a team it wouldn’t surprise me to see Hawthorn play 2/3 games in Canberra along with GWS.

And I agree that if GWS leave Canberra, they should be playing games in Woolongong and Newcastle.
 

Dirty Bird

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#BostonStrong #RiseUp
But Im sure they dont have a City like Melbourne which hosts 8 Top line clubs either.

Better to look at the EPL and their divisional structure, for a comparison into how our game should be structured.
New York Giants, New York Jets, New York Yankees, New York Mets, New York Knicks, New York Nets, New York Rangers, New York Islanders, New Jersey Devils

Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Chargers, Los Angeles Clippers, Los Angeles Lakers, Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dodgers, Los Angeles Kings, Anaheim Ducks
 

Tonatopia

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New York Giants, New York Jets, New York Yankees, New York Mets, New York Knicks, New York Nets, New York Rangers, New York Islanders, New Jersey Devils

Los Angeles Rams, Los Angeles Chargers, Los Angeles Clippers, Los Angeles Lakers, Los Angeles Angels, Los Angeles Dodgers, Los Angeles Kings, Anaheim Ducks
Im talking about the same code.
If you include all the teams for all codes in Melbourne, then wow.

Los Angeles with a population of 15M has only 2 football teams.
Have a look at England and London instead. Then you see comparisons on how our structure is better suited to a divisional format.
 

kranger

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Better to look at the EPL and their divisional structure, for a comparison into how our game should be structured.
I would have to disagree. As a comparison of the two countries:

England
Population - 56,000,000
Area - 130,000km2
Cities over 1,000,000 - 3
Cities over 100,000 - 55
Time to drive across the country - 6.5hrs (Plymouth to Newcastle)

Australia
Population - 26,000,000
Area - 7,690,000km2
Cities over 1,000,000 - 5
Cities over 100,000 - 19
Time to drive across the country - 51hrs (Perth to Brisbane)

Evidently, England has a population much closer together, so that teams not in the top grade are close enough to make it economically viable to still travel and to compete. Multiple grades in Australia would just not be economically viable, so we have to have tougher requirements for inclusion. Similar to America with their larger travel distance.

England also has less big cities but a lot more small cities. Making it a tougher decision to decide which of the smaller cities should be included. Where as in Australia only the big 5 are large enough to easily warrant teams. And now the other cities like Gold Coast (and Tasmania as a state) are attempting to be included.

Whilst there probably shouldn’t be so many Victorian teams, it is how it has evolved, and it doesn’t mean we should make decisions that introduce teams (in small cities) that would be financially similar to the lowest ranking Victorian teams, that increases the financial burden on the league. We need to look to how we can strengthen what we have (including mergers/relocations/second homes), and only introduce teams that lift the league.
 

kranger

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Im talking about the same code.
If you include all the teams for all codes in Melbourne, then wow.

Los Angeles with a population of 15M has only 2 football teams.
Have a look at England and London instead. Then you see comparisons on how our structure is better suited to a divisional format.
Except again England is a different comparison. It’s got one big sport, Soccer, nothing else even comes close to it, not Rugby, not League, not Cricket. So do only have to compare the one code.

But in the USA you have the big 4 (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL) and in Australia you have AFL, NRL, Super Rugby, BBL, NBL.

In Australia you have to consider what other sport codes are doing and where their teams are located. So for example, Canberra already has NRL and Super Rugby teams. But in Melbourne, it is dominated by the plethora of AFL teams, that the other codes struggle in comparison.

So if you choose to compare the set up of AFL to sports in other countries, you need to consider the context that surrounds them.
 

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Tonatopia

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I would have to disagree. As a comparison of the two countries:

England
Population - 56,000,000
Area - 130,000km2
Cities over 1,000,000 - 3
Cities over 100,000 - 55
Time to drive across the country - 6.5hrs (Plymouth to Newcastle)

Australia
Population - 26,000,000
Area - 7,690,000km2
Cities over 1,000,000 - 5
Cities over 100,000 - 19
Time to drive across the country - 51hrs (Perth to Brisbane)

Evidently, England has a population much closer together, so that teams not in the top grade are close enough to make it economically viable to still travel and to compete. Multiple grades in Australia would just not be economically viable, so we have to have tougher requirements for inclusion. Similar to America with their larger travel distance.

England also has less big cities but a lot more small cities. Making it a tougher decision to decide which of the smaller cities should be included. Where as in Australia only the big 5 are large enough to easily warrant teams. And now the other cities like Gold Coast (and Tasmania as a state) are attempting to be included.

Whilst there probably shouldn’t be so many Victorian teams, it is how it has evolved, and it doesn’t mean we should make decisions that introduce teams (in small cities) that would be financially similar to the lowest ranking Victorian teams, that increases the financial burden on the league. We need to look to how we can strengthen what we have (including mergers/relocations/second homes), and only introduce teams that lift the league.
They invented air travel a while ago.
Bulk deals, Melb to Darwin, about $500 return.
It would cost about $20k in logistics to play an away game on the other side of the country.
Petracca's wage is $40k per game, just to put things into perspective.
 

kranger

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Anyway, back to a Canberra team, surely Manuka Oval would require a capacity increase. Do it in two stages.

I’m presuming of the Oval’s 15,000 capacity, that 10,000 is on the western wing of the oval, and 5,000 is on the eastern wing.

When the team is first introduce, replace the eastern half of the stands with a new 15,000 seat stand, with new corporate facilities. Lifting the capacity to 25,000, the same as Carrara and Sydney Showgrounds.

Then when the team is doing well and Canberra has grown, replace the western side of the stands with a new 25,000 seat stand, with even newer corporate facilities. Further lifting the capacity to 40,000, the same as Kadina Park.
 

Established1870

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But in the USA you have the big 4 (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL) and in Australia you have AFL, NRL, Super Rugby, BBL, NBL.
Carn. No one gives a sh*t about NRL outside Queensland and NSW, Super Rugby is dead in the water and while NBL is on the up it's still nowhere as big as it was in the 90's and it's still not that long ago that the NBL had to press the reset button.

We have a strong sporting culture but in terms of support for the numerous leagues, it's virtually non existent outside the big two and only one has the ability to continuously expand without sending itself bankrupt. None of the leagues in Australia have billionaire owners like the Yanks do for their leagues either.

People keep comparing Australia to the US but it's seriously not as similar as what people make it out to be.
 

Established1870

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are we more similar to Europe?
Aside from equalisation measures, yes we are. 12 out of 18 AFL clubs were founded in the 1800's as community clubs first and foremost and only one of those clubs (Port) are not run by their members and only one club (Sydney) have relocated from their area of origin. Even the general feeling regarding the effort to get Fitzroy out of the league is similar to how English football fans feel about Wimbledon being relocated to Milton Keynes.

In terms of league set up, this league is sort of similar to the US model, but in terms of supporter bases and a myriad of other factors we are a lot more closely aligned with English sporting culture (and Germany due to their 50+1 rules regarding fan ownership of clubs).
 

NoobPie

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Aside from equalisation measures, yes we are. 12 out of 18 AFL clubs were founded in the 1800's as community clubs first and foremost and only one of those clubs (Port) are not run by their members and only one club (Sydney) have relocated from their area of origin. Even the general feeling regarding the effort to get Fitzroy out of the league is similar to how English football fans feel about Wimbledon being relocated to Milton Keynes.

Are you including Brisbane via Fitzroy?

If not, there are 11


In terms of league set up, this league is sort of similar to the US model, but in terms of supporter bases and a myriad of other factors we are a lot more closely aligned with English sporting culture (and Germany due to their 50+1 rules regarding fan ownership of clubs).
The binary between european soccer and US sport is stupid. Australian football has adopted some equalisation measures and governance structures from the US but the AFL is ultimately the evolution of the break away VFL league in 1897 and the VFA and SANFL were "closed shops" decades before that.

The single ladder round robin league season that seeds into a finals series has effectively been the model since 1897 as well

There were also strict salary controls for most of the 20th century and zoning also dates back to the early 20th century

The OPs insistence on saying we've adopted the "NFL model" is one of the sillier things he says in a very strong field
 

Tonatopia

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The OPs insistence on saying we've adopted the "NFL model" is one of the sillier things he says in a very strong field
Where did we get the following policies from;
1. Draft?
2. Salary Cap?
3. Prospect of 18 games per season?

It is widely known that AFL administrators look the the NFL for inspiration.
I know that for a fact.
 
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Established1870

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Are you including Brisbane via Fitzroy?

If not, there are 11
I didn't include the Lions for either because their history means they're not exactly like the others but as a members owned club that brings the number to 13 out of 18 clubs in the AFL.

The binary between european soccer and US sport is stupid. Australian football has adopted some equalisation measures and governance structures from the US but the AFL is ultimately the evolution of the break away VFL league in 1897 and the VFA and SANFL were "closed shops" decades before that.

The single ladder round robin league season that seeds into a finals series has effectively been the model since 1897 as well

There were also strict salary controls for most of the 20th century and zoning also dates back to the early 20th century

The OPs insistence on saying we've adopted the "NFL model" is one of the sillier things he says in a very strong field
I agree completely that footy is unique in terms of setup and due to population and distance, things like promotion and relegation have never been feasible. But, if you were to compare the culture of footy to US sports or European sports, it's definitely more closely aligned with European sports (and in particular Germany and England). Even Collingwood's boardroom war right now is near identical to Barcelona's presidency campaigns a few months ago with the vicious infighting and media coverage.

And one other thing, if the VFL had strict salary controls for most of the 20th century then people like Elliot don't change the game by poaching the best players throughout the country, other VFL clubs don't try to follow suit, and the VFL and it's clubs aren't effectively bankrupt and needing new sides in to stem the bleeding. Zones are fairly identical to academy setups in England and Europe as well if I'm being honest.
 

Tonatopia

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And one other thing, if the VFL had strict salary controls for most of the 20th century then people like Elliot don't change the game by poaching the best players throughout the country, other VFL clubs don't try to follow suit, and the VFL and it's clubs aren't effectively bankrupt and needing new sides in to stem the bleeding. Zones are fairly identical to academy setups in England and Europe as well if I'm being honest.
If you recall, Carlton mostly poached the best WAFL and SANFL players. This would no longer be so easy, as WA and SA are represented in the AFL, and generally speaking, a kid or adult, is more inclined to stick in their hometown, especially when they are treated like cult heros and paid well.
Unlike Europe and USA, our culture generally frowns on mercinaries, and the 1 club mentality, is firmly entrenched in our culture.

I dont think any club would be able to dominate a free market. I reckon there would be about 8-10 superclubs in the AFL.
 
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kranger

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Carn. No one gives a sh*t about NRL outside Queensland and NSW, Super Rugby is dead in the water and while NBL is on the up it's still nowhere as big as it was in the 90's and it's still not that long ago that the NBL had to press the reset button.

We have a strong sporting culture but in terms of support for the numerous leagues, it's virtually non existent outside the big two and only one has the ability to continuously expand without sending itself bankrupt. None of the leagues in Australia have billionaire owners like the Yanks do for their leagues either.

People keep comparing Australia to the US but it's seriously not as similar as what people make it out to be.
It would have been nice if you quoted the whole post I wrote. Especially the last paragraph. I’ve done it for you below.

But the comparison to the US I used, was to show how other things should be considered when you do a comparison to England. None of the sport leagues in any of the countries can be defined by one aspect. As the rest of the context that goes with it influences how they have come to be what they are.


Except again England is a different comparison. It’s got one big sport, Soccer, nothing else even comes close to it, not Rugby, not League, not Cricket. So do only have to compare the one code.

But in the USA you have the big 4 (NFL, MLB, NBA, NHL) and in Australia you have AFL, NRL, Super Rugby, BBL, NBL.

In Australia you have to consider what other sport codes are doing and where their teams are located. So for example, Canberra already has NRL and Super Rugby teams. But in Melbourne, it is dominated by the plethora of AFL teams, that the other codes struggle in comparison.

So if you choose to compare the set up of AFL to sports in other countries, you need to consider the context that surrounds them.
 

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