Canberra's own AFL team

[Seedsfan]

Are you including Brisbane via Fitzroy?

If not, there are 11




The binary between european soccer and US sport is stupid. Australian football has adopted some equalisation measures and governance structures from the US but the AFL is ultimately the evolution of the break away VFL league in 1897 and the VFA and SANFL were "closed shops" decades before that.

The single ladder round robin league season that seeds into a finals series has effectively been the model since 1897 as well

There were also strict salary controls for most of the 20th century and zoning also dates back to the early 20th century

The OPs insistence on saying we've adopted the "NFL model" is one of the sillier things he says in a very strong field

When the Hawks, Dogs and Roos joined the VFL in 1925 there was talk of a merger of the leagues and having a first and second division

 

[BigVic]

Would be more logical than an NT team

 

[Freomaniac]

Would be more logical than an NT team

How so¿

There's only 150-200,000 in Darwin.

Canberra you can turn into similar to Geelong.

There's 400,000 in the ACT. You can also lure a few NSW fans too.

 

[Dinsdale]

Yeah the Canberra Capital campaigners !

Sent by shoe phone via Tapatoe

 

[Aussie in exile]

Would be more logical than an NT team

It would be but not all the while GWS play games in town and GWS can't really survive without the money they get from the Canberra authorities

 

[Canberra Pear]

It would be but not all the while GWS play games in town and GWS can't really survive without the money they get from the Canberra authorities

The NT proposal had their team receiving the same distribution as GWS, but still an annual revenue gap of $15m (which I think they wanted the AFL to cover).

GWS only receives $2.3m from Canberra. About $1m of that is to Canberra development pathways, so GWS would only lose $1.3m annually (but also open up guernsey advertising space).

I still maintain GWS could cover that gap, or play games in Newcastle if they were desperate.

But if the AFL had to cover the gap, a self-sufficient Canberra, plus the AFL paying an extra $1.3m to GWS, would still be much more cost efficient than an NT team.

 

[Canberra Pear]

Would be more logical than an NT team

Correct. Whenever Darwin hosts more than one game a year, crowds drop. There'd be a pretty low average with eight or nine games a year.

Both cities have hosted two games so far this year, Canberra crowds have been 75% higher.

Canberra: 11,434
Darwin: 6,520

 

[Aussie in exile]

The NT proposal had their team receiving the same distribution as GWS, but still an annual revenue gap of $15m (which I think they wanted the AFL to cover).

GWS only receives $2.3m from Canberra. About $1m of that is to Canberra development pathways, so GWS would only lose $1.3m annually (but also open up guernsey advertising space).

I still maintain GWS could cover that gap, or play games in Newcastle if they were desperate.

But if the AFL had to cover the gap, a self-sufficient Canberra, plus the AFL paying an extra $1.3m to GWS, would still be much more cost efficient than an NT team.

I don't see GWS playing games in Newcastle.
If they want to grow the game in West Sydney they will have to play more games there, and playing games in Newcastle isn't going to help the game in West Sydney.
A AFL team in Canberra is more beneficial for the game than a team in the NT or another team in Queensland or a 3rd Sydney team
For me and i say it again GWS need to get out of Canberra so that Canberra can have its own team
GWS is a fly in the ointment for me to Canberra having its own team

 

[Canberra Pear]

I don't see GWS playing games in Newcastle.
If they want to grow the game in West Sydney they will have to play more games there, and playing games in Newcastle isn't going to help the game in West Sydney.
A AFL team in Canberra is more beneficial for the game than a team in the NT or another team in Queensland or a 3rd Sydney team
For me and i say it again GWS need to get out of Canberra so that Canberra can have its own team
GWS is a fly in the ointment for me to Canberra having its own team

Agreed. My preference would be GWS playing home games exclusively in western Sydney.

It might be an initial financial hit, but I think Canberra is hamstringing GWS' growth. It'd be mutually beneficial for both Canberra and GWS to cut the partnership.

 

[Walshawk]

Agreed. My preference would be GWS playing home games exclusively in western Sydney.

It might be an initial financial hit, but I think Canberra is hamstringing GWS' growth. It'd be mutually beneficial for both Canberra and GWS to cut the partnership.

Looking back it was rather arrogant of the AFL to think that footy would ever be popular in a Western Sydney. It simply won’t be. It has no chance. It would be like the NRL starting a second Melbourne team based in Blackburn. Eastern Panthers anyone? It is an endless money pit.
Move the Giants to Canberra. No one in Parramatta will even notice.

 

[parano1a]

The Giants contract to play home games in Canberra was recently extended for 5 years which takes them to the end of 2027. Apparently the Giants wanted a 10 year contract term but this was not approved by the AFL as they wanted to retain the possibility for a new Canberra team to commence in 2028.

 

[Bjo187]

Looking back it was rather arrogant of the AFL to think that footy would ever be popular in a Western Sydney. It simply won’t be. It has no chance. It would be like the NRL starting a second Melbourne team based in Blackburn. Eastern Panthers anyone? It is an endless money pit.
Move the Giants to Canberra. No one in Parramatta will even notice.

It was a strange call considering even the western bulldogs are the second smallest club in Victoria with 100 years, no competition, and lots of media behind the sport in a footy town with similar demographics to WS.

I've said many times before, north sydney was a much better fit for a second team and the data backs that up (ie. lowest nrl interest in nsw, no professional club representing the 1 million residents there, more afl friendly environment). This is what happens when rich suits make decisions, they have zero idea of the culture in poorer immigrant suburbs. I honestly think they got attracted by the potential of WS with such a massive population, but as others have said does that mean you put a team in Tokyo as well?

 

[Walshawk]

It was a strange call considering even the western bulldogs are the second smallest club in Victoria with 100 years, no competition, and lots of media behind the sport in a footy town with similar demographics to WS.

I've said many times before, north sydney was a much better fit for a second team and the data backs that up (ie. lowest nrl interest in nsw, no professional club representing the 1 million residents there, more afl friendly environment). This is what happens when rich suits make decisions, they have zero idea of the culture in poorer immigrant suburbs. I honestly think they got attracted by the potential of WS with such a massive population, but as others have said does that mean you put a team in Tokyo as well?

Given any Sydneysider with interest in AFL would already be following the Swans, I am not sure who the thought would follow the Giants. Even North Sydney would struggle to do much better than GWS. Unless they split Sydney and made it the Sydney South Swans and the Sydney North ????

 

[Aussie in exile]

Given any Sydneysider with interest in AFL would already be following the Swans, I am not sure who the thought would follow the Giants. Even North Sydney would struggle to do much better than GWS. Unless they split Sydney and made it the Sydney South Swans and the Sydney North ????

It will be many many years before there is another AFL club in Sydney.
The last thing the game wants is another financial blackhole in Sydney like GWS

 

[Canberra Pear]

It was a strange call considering even the western bulldogs are the second smallest club in Victoria with 100 years, no competition, and lots of media behind the sport in a footy town with similar demographics to WS.

I've said many times before, north sydney was a much better fit for a second team and the data backs that up (ie. lowest nrl interest in nsw, no professional club representing the 1 million residents there, more afl friendly environment). This is what happens when rich suits make decisions, they have zero idea of the culture in poorer immigrant suburbs. I honestly think they got attracted by the potential of WS with such a massive population, but as others have said does that mean you put a team in Tokyo as well?

I think the AFL were also wooed by Olympic Park. The Swans averaged 40,854 across their 42 games there. It implied there was a decent sized market west of the city (though it just looks like Swans fans just travelled from the north and east instead).

Other than the obvious upside of a huge untapped market in Western Sydney if they cracked it, I think the AFL also went west for facilities. Blacktown were more than willing to create a decent facility, and then the Showgrounds was an even better, connected option.

North Sydney Oval would've been the only conceivable northern option (I think), and I don't know if there's much room for anything bigger than 20k there. Plus it's only 7km from the SCG.

North Sydney would've been easier, but Western Sydney has more potential. It sucks to see the small crowds now, but I honestly think, if they move out of Canberra and fully commit to Western Sydney, they can be a big club.

 

[Aussie in exile]

I think the AFL were also wooed by Olympic Park. The Swans averaged 40,854 across their 42 games there. It implied there was a decent sized market west of the city (though it just looks like Swans fans just travelled from the north and east instead).

Other than the obvious upside of a huge untapped market in Western Sydney if they cracked it, I think the AFL also went west for facilities. Blacktown were more than willing to create a decent facility, and then the Showgrounds was an even better, connected option.

North Sydney Oval would've been the only conceivable northern option (I think), and I don't know if there's much room for anything bigger than 20k there. Plus it's only 7km from the SCG.

North Sydney would've been easier, but Western Sydney has more potential. It sucks to see the small crowds now, but I honestly think, if they move out of Canberra and fully commit to Western Sydney, they can be a big club.

I personally don't think GWS will ever fully commit to Western Sydney, otherwise they would have done it by now.

 

[Canberra Pear]

I personally don't think GWS will ever fully commit to Western Sydney, otherwise they would have done it by now.

I kind of liken it to a kid leaving home in their twenties. Canberra is easy, comfortable, safe, but at some point you've got to move out and grow up.

By Canberra being awarded Team 20, you're forcing GWS to move out and grow up. They need that kick.

I can't see GWS leaving without being forced to. Canberra getting its own team could honestly be the best thing for the long-term future of GWS.

 

[Aussie in exile]

I kind of liken it to a kid leaving home in their twenties. Canberra is easy, comfortable, safe, but at some point you've got to move out and grow up.

By Canberra being awarded Team 20, you're forcing GWS to move out and grow up. They need that kick.

I can't see GWS leaving without being forced to. Canberra getting its own team could honestly be the best thing for the long-term future of GWS.

GWS are light years away from any sort of autarky, and will keep sucking on the Canberra teat as long as possible.
We are both aware of the BS that comes out of AFL house about them, but for over $200 million they have spent propping them in so far i see next to no return. In my opinion that money would have been better spent of a Canberra or Tassie team for a far greater return

 

[Canberra Pear]

GWS are light years away from any sort of autarky, and will keep sucking on the Canberra teat as long as possible.
We are both aware of the BS that comes out of AFL house about them, but for over $200 million they have spent propping them in so far i see next to no return. In my opinion that money would have been better spent of a Canberra or Tassie team for a far greater return

I agree it'll still be a while before before any sort or autarky.

What we disagree on is how Canberra relates to that. You think they can't survive without Canberra, I think they can't survive with Canberra (and grow into a decent sized club).

As I've mentioned, the Canberra relationship really isn't that valuable. The ACT govt gives $2.3m per year, but $1m of that is earmarked for ACT development pathways, so the loss to GWS is only $1.3m per year.

Canberra gets a bargain for that $1.3m. Three men's games, a preseason, an AFLW match and a prominent guernsey spot.

• Cairns paid the Saints $650k for just one game
• Mackay signed a "huge deal" for an annual AFLW game. I can't get behind the paywall, but would guess that means at least $100k per game
• Wagga paid $100k for a recent preseason match
• GWS could probably get $1m a season for the spot on the back of the guernsey that currently says "Canberra"

So if those things were sold separately, GWS could make $3m instead of $1.3m.

A back sponsorship could make up the majority of the $1.3m. They could sell just one game and they'd have already covered the difference lost from the ACT government. They'd be able to play 10 games in Western Sydney, and an extra AFLW game, so they could actually grow their club in Western Sydney.

 

[Aussie in exile]

I agree it'll still be a while before before any sort or autarky.

What we disagree on is how Canberra relates to that. You think they can't survive without Canberra, I think they can't survive with Canberra (and grow into a decent sized club).

As I've mentioned, the Canberra relationship really isn't that valuable. The ACT govt gives $2.3m per year, but $1m of that is earmarked for ACT development pathways, so the loss to GWS is only $1.3m per year.

Canberra gets a bargain for that $1.3m. Three men's games, a preseason, an AFLW match and a prominent guernsey spot.

• Cairns paid the Saints $650k for just one game
• Mackay signed a "huge deal" for an annual AFLW game. I can't get behind the paywall, but would guess that means at least $100k per game
• Wagga paid $100k for a recent preseason match
• GWS could probably get $1m a season for the spot on the back of the guernsey that currently says "Canberra"

So if those things were sold separately, GWS could make $3m instead of $1.3m.

A back sponsorship could make up the majority of the $1.3m. They could sell just one game and they'd have already covered the difference lost from the ACT government. They'd be able to play 10 games in Western Sydney, and an extra AFLW game, so they could actually grow their club in Western Sydney.

I don't know know of any other area that would pay GWS the among of money they get from Canberra, but that's just my opinion. Unlike other teams they have no wow appeal

 

[Canberra Pear]

I don't know know of any other area that would pay GWS the among of money they get from Canberra, but that's just my opinion. Unlike other teams they have no wow appeal

Clubs with wow appeal don't generally sell games in the first place. Richmond did very temporarily, Hawthorn do because of a long-standing contract, but most big clubs can afford not to sell games.

The Saints aren't particularly special and get $650k a game in Cairns. North are incredibly on the nose in Hobart and still get $1m per game. I wouldn't say GWS would be any less wow. It was GWS who Wagga paid $100k to play a preseason match.

I imagine Newcastle would pay $650k for a regular season game. The council has just spent millions upgrading their ground to AFL standard, and it'll be a bit of a white elephant if they don't get games. Cairns isn't popular with the Saints fans, so there could be a $650k opportunity if GWS wanted it.

The extra guernsey space alone should pay for the majority of the lost sponsorship, but there are plenty of options if GWS needs to make up a bit of the difference.