Analysis Carlton list history & rebuilding comparisons

[The Old Dark Navy's]

There has been a lot of discussion as to the history of Carlton's list problems, where it went wrong, to top up or not to top up, whether to play the youngsters before they are ready and gaps in our age profile over the years.

I am in the process of compiling stats on the breakdown of our list as far as age profile, who we have been games into and what other teams have been doing in their rebuilds.

I intend to fill in the blanks as we go so forgive me any gaps and feel free to correct any errors. I want to go all the way back to our last flag in 1995 but getting the exact years of 0 gamers is time consuming and I am not putting some years up until I have all the information.

One thing that will jump out is our recruiting. It's not my intention to make this a recruiting debate over a list management/rebuild debate and it has probably been done to death. Suffice to say, we are looking at how teams build their lists and play their lists, rather than drafting failures which aren't necessarily the fault of the senior coach/list manager.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

First thing I want to highlight in the one place (for ease of immediate comparison) is our age profile over time. All ages are of the 1st January of the relevant season:

I have from 2006-2016 and an earlier one from 2002 to show what Pagan was faced with when he came in. I will update more as I go.

Take into consideration where we were on the ladder in any given year because the recruiting philosophies will change.

2002 Ages - Brittain 42 players
3 x 18, 10 x 19, 2 x 20, 3 x 21, 4 x 22, 4 x 23, 2 x 24, 2 x 25, 3 x 26, 4 x 28, 2 x 29, 3 x 30+

2006 Ages - Pagan 44 players
7 x 18 or under, 7 x 19, 2 x 20, 2 x 21, 5 x 22, 8 x 23, 2 x 24, 3 x 25, 5 x 26, 1 x 29, 2 x 30+

2007 Ages - Pagan 43 players 11 in, 12 out
8 x 18 or under, 6 x 19, 6 x 20, 2 x 21, 3 x 22, 5 x 23, 5 x 24, 2 x 25, 2 x 26, 2 x 27, 2 x 30+

2008 Ages - Ratten 44 players 10 in, 9 out
7 x 18, 6 x 19, 3 x 20, 8 x 21, 2 x 22, 4 x 23, 6 x 24, 4 x 25, 1 x 26, 2 x 27, 1 x 28

2009 Ages - Ratten 46 players 9 in, 7 out
4 x 18 or under, 9 x 19, 5 x 20, 4 x 21, 8 x 22, 1 x 23, 3 x 24, 6 x 25, 3 x 26, 1 x 27, 2 x 28

2010 Ages - Ratten 46 players 11 in, 11 out
7 x 18, 3 x 19, 10 x 20, 6 x 21, 2 x 22, 7 x 23, 2 x 25, 6 x 26, 2 x 27, 1 x 29

2011 Ages - Ratten 47 players 11 in, 10 out
5 x 18, 6 x 19, 3 x 20, 11 x 21, 4 x 22, 2 x 23, 7 x 24, 2 x 26, 5 x 27, 1 x 28, 1 x 30

2012 list - Ratten 48 players 7 in, 6 out
4 x 18, 5 x 19, 5 x 20, 4 x 21, 10 x 22, 4 x 23, 3 x 24, 6 x 25, 2 x 27, 4 x 28, 1 x 30+

2013 list - Malthouse 44 players 4 in, 8 out
3 x 18, 3 x 19, 4 x 20, 4 x 21, 3 x 22, 9 x 23, 4 x 24, 2 x 25, 6 x 26, 2 x 28, 3 x 29, 1 x 30+

2014 list - Malthouse 45 players 11 in, 10 out
5 x 18, 4 x 19, 2 x 20, 3 x 21, 3 x 22, 3 x 23, 7 x 24, 3 x 25, 3 x 26, 6 x 27, 2 x 29, 4 x 30+

2015 list - Malthouse 46 players 13 in, 12 out
4 x 18, 5 x 19, 5 x 20, 3 x 21, 4 x 22, 3 x 23, 3 x 24, 7 x 25, 1 x 26, 3 x 27, 5 x 28, 3 x 30+

2016 List - Bolton 46 players 15 in, 15 out
6 x 18, 3 x 19, 2 x 20, 6 x 21, 5 x 22, 3 x 23, 4 x 24, 2 x 25, 6 x 26, 1 x 27, 4 x 28, 3 x 29, 1 x 30+

2017 List - Bolton 46 players - 12 in, 12 out
7 x 18, 6 x 19, 2 x 20, 1 x 21, 5 x 22, 5 x 23, 3 x 24, 3 x 25, 2 x 26, 5 x 27, 1 x 28, 4 x 29, 2 x 30+

2018 List- Bolton 45 players - 12 in, 13 out
4 x 18, 7 x 19, 8 x 20, 3 x 21, 2 x 22, 3 x 23, 2 x 24, 4 x 25, 2 x 26, 1 x 27, 4 x 28, 0 x 29, 5 x 30+

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Parkin era from 1995-2000

1995


Out:


In:


Finishing position: 1st 20 wins, 2 losses


List


1996

Coach: David Parkin. Recruiting Manager: Shane O’Sullivan



1997

Coach: David Parkin. Recruiting Manager: Shane O’Sullivan


1998

Coach: David Parkin. Recruiting Manager: Shane O’Sullivan


1999

Coach: David Parkin. Recruiting Manager: Shane O’Sullivan


2000

Coach: David Parkin. Recruiting Manager: Shane O’Sullivan

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Brittain era from 2001-2002

2001​

Coach: Wayne Brittain. Recruiting Manager: Shane O’Sullivan

In:

Out:

List


List Ages

Finishing Position

2002​

Coach: Wayne Brittain. Recruiting Manager: Shane O’Sullivan

List

Mansfield 30, Ratten 30, McKay 31
Hickmott 29, Christou 29
Hotton 28, , McKernan 28, Manton 28, Koutoufides 28
Allan 26, Beaumont 26, Camporeale 26, Allan 26, Beaumont 26, Camporeale 26
Lappin 25, J Murphy 25
Hulme 24, Franchina 24
Merrington 23, Freeborn 23, Plunkett 23, Fletcher 23
Doering 22, Whitnall 22, Cranage 22, Eccles 22
Prendergast 21, Gallagher 21, L Smith 21
Fevola 20, Pickering 20
Houlihan 19, Wiggins 19, Campbell 19, Beasy 19, S O'Keeffe 19, A Mathews 19, E Bray 19, M Davis 19, Sporn 19, Livingston 19
J Davies 18, Thornton 18, Waite 18

2002 Ages - 42 players
3 x 18, 10 x 19, 2 x 20, 3 x 21, 4 x 22, 4 x 23, 2 x 24, 2 x 25, 3 x 26, 4 x 28, 2 x 29, 3 x 30+

Finishing Position: 16/16 3 wins 19 losses

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Pagan era 2003-2007

2003​

Coach: Denis Pagan. Recruiting Manager: Shane O’Sullivan

Out: Christou 30, Hotton 29, Mansfield 31, Freeborn 24, Doering 23, Pickering 21, Cranage 23,
Gallagher 22, Smith 22, Bray 20,

In – B French 27, K Simpson 18, C Croad 18, B Fisher 18, K Norman 19, M Martyn 34, J McCormick 21, Angwin 20, Mark McKenzie 19, Tom Hedge 22, Michael Stinear 18

List

Ratten 31, McKay 32, Martyn 34, Hickmott 30
McKernan 29, Manton 29, Koutoufides 29
Allan 27, Beaumont 27, Camporeale 27, French 27
Lappin 26, J Murphy 26
Hulme 25, Franchina 25
Merrington 24, Plunkett 24, Fletcher 24
Whitnall 23, Eccles 23
Prendergast 22, Hedge 22
Fevola 21, McCormick 21
Houlihan 20, Wiggins 20, Campbell 20, Beasy 20, S O'Keeffe 20, Adam Mathews 20, Michael Davis 20, Sporn 20, Livingston 20, Angwin 20
J Davies 19, Thornton 19, Waite 19, Norman 19, McKenzie 19
Simpson 18, C Croad 18, Fisher 18, Stinear 18

2003 Ages – 44 players
4 x 18, 5 x 19, 3 x 20, 2 x 21, 2 x 22, 2 x 23, 3 x 24, 2 x 25, 2 x 26, 3 x 27, 3 x 29, 4 x 30+

Finishing Position 15/16

2004​

Coach: Denis Pagan. Recruiting Manager: Shane O’Sullivan/Wayne Hughes

Out: McKenzie 20, Hedge 20, Stinear 19,

In:

2005​

Coach: Denis Pagan. Recruiting Manager: Wayne Hughes

Out:

In:

List

2005 Ages

Finishing Position 16/16

2006​

Coach: Denis Pagan. Recruiting Manager: Wayne Hughes

Out:

In:

List

Anthony Koutoufides 32, Barnaby French 30
Matthew Lappin 29
Cory McGrath 26, Troy Longmuir 26, Lance Whitnall 26, Jason Saddington 26, Callum Chambers 26
Nick Stevens 25, Heath Scotland 25, Ian Prendergast 25
Brendan Fevola 24, David Teague 24
Ryan Houlihan 23, Chris Bryan 23, Dylan McLaren 23, Adrian De Luca 23, Simon Wiggins 23,
Trent Sporn 23 years, Jordan Bannister 23, Luke Livingston 23
Jarrad Waite 22, Setanta O'hAilpin 22, Justin Davies 22, Bret Thornton 22, Andrew Carrazzo 22
Brad Fisher 21, Kade Simpson 21 years
Adam Bentick 20, Aisake O'hAilpin 20
Jessie D Smith 19, Adam Hartlett 19, Daniel Batson 19, Andrew Walker 19, Jordan Russell 19,
Luke Blackwell 19, Eddie Betts 19
Ryan Jackson 18, Anthony Raso 18, Marc Murphy 18, Craig Flint 18, Josh Kennedy 18
Jake Edwards 17, Paul Bower 17

2006 Ages
7 x 18 or under, 7 x 19, 2 x 20, 2 x 21, 5 x 22, 8 x 23, 2 x 24, 3 x 25, 5 x 26, 1 x 29, 2 x 30+

Finishing Position 16/16

2007​

Coach: Denis Pagan (in charge when list was selected, sacked Round 16). Recruiting Manager: Wayne Hughes

Out: French 31, McGrath 27, Longmuir 27, Chambers 27, Prendergast 26, Bryan 24, De Luca 24,
Sporn 24, Livingston 24, J Davies 23, J Smith 20, Batson 20

In: Ackland 24, Young 23, Cloke 22, Jamison 20, Grigg 18, Bower 18, Benjamin 18, Anderson 18, Hampson 18,
Jacobs 18, Gibbs 17, Austin 17

Anthony Koutoufides 33, Matthew Lappin 30
Jason Saddington 27, Lance Whitnall 27
Nick Stevens 26, Heath Scotland 26
Brendan Fevola 25, David Teague 25
Cain Ackland 24, Jordan Bannister 24, Ryan Houlihan 24, Simon Wiggins 24, Dylan McLaren 24
Setanta O’hAilpin 23, Jarrad Waite 23, Bret Thornton 23, Andrew Carrazzo 23, Ross Young 23
Kade Simpson 22, Brad Fisher 22, Cameron Cloke 22
Adam Bentick 21, Aisake O’hAilpin 21,
Andrew Walker 20, Jordan Russell 20, Luke Blackwell 20, Eddie Betts 20, Adam Hartlett 20,
Michael Jamison 20
Marc Murphy 19, Jake Edwards 19, Ryan Jackson 19, Josh Kennedy 19, Craig Flint 19, Anthony Raso 19
Shaun Grigg 18, Paul Bower 18, Clint Benjamin 18, Shaun Hampson 18, Joe Anderson 18,
Sam Jacobs 18,
Bryce Gibbs 17, Mark Austin 17

2007 Ages as of 1/1/07 – 12 out, 11 in. 43 players
8 x 18 or under, 6 x 19, 6 x 20, 2 x 21, 3 x 22, 5 x 23, 5 x 24, 2 x 25, 2 x 26, 2 x 27, 2 x 30+

Finishing Position 15/16

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Ratten era 2008-2012

2008​

Coach: Brett Ratten. Recruiting Manager: Wayne Hughes

Out: Lappin 31, Kennedy 20, McLaren 25, Whitnall 28, Teague 26, Raso 20, Flint 20, Young, 24, Koutoufides 34

In: Judd 24, Hadley 24, Kreuzer 18, Browne 18, Armfield 21, Pfeiffer 21, Joseph 18, Hill 18, Ellard 18, Shields 23

List

Jason Saddington 28
Nick Stevens 27, Heath Scotland 27
Brendan Fevola 26
Cain Ackland 25, Jordan Bannister 25, Ryan Houlihan 25, Simon Wiggins 25
Chris Judd 24, Richard Hadley 24, Setanta O’hAilpin 24, Jarrad Waite 24, Bret Thornton 24,
Andrew Carrazzo 24
Kade Simpson 23, Brad Fisher 23, Cameron Cloke 23, Michael Shields 23
Adam Bentick 22, Aisake O’hAilpin 22,
Andrew Walker 21, Jordan Russell 21, Luke Blackwell 21, Eddie Betts 21, Adam Hartlett 21,
Dennis Armfield 21, Darren Pfeiffer 21, Michael Jamison 21
Marc Murphy 20, Jake Edwards 20, Ryan Jackson 20
Shaun Grigg 19, Paul Bower 19, Clint Benjamin 19, Shaun Hampson 19, Joe Anderson 19, Sam Jacobs 19,
Bryce Gibbs 18, Matthew Kreuzer 18, Steven Browne 18, Mark Austin 18, Lachie Hill 18, Aaron Joseph 18, David Ellard 18

Ages as of 1/1/08 44 players 10 in, 8 out
7 x 18 or under, 6 x 19, 3 x 20, 8 x 21, 2 x 22, 4 x 23, 6 x 24, 4 x 25, 1 x 26, 2 x 27, 1 x 28

Games played by age - 484 games
18 or under - 59 games
19 – 46 games
20 – 28 games
21 – 82 games
22 – 14 games
23 – 63 games
24 – 100 games
25 – 25 games
26 – 22 games
27 – 43 games
28 – 2 games

Finishing Position: 11th 10 wins, 12 losses

2009​

Coach: Brett Ratten. Recruiting Manager: Wayne Hughes

Out: Shields 24, Saddington 29, Ackland 26, Benjamin 20, Blackwell 22, Jackson 21, A O'hAilpin 23

In: Warnock 21, Yarran 18, Robinson 19, O'Keeffe 18, Tiller 17, C Johnson 22, Garlett 19, Stanton 18, Bentley 21

List

Nick Stevens 28, Heath Scotland 28
Brendan Fevola 27
Jordan Bannister 26, Ryan Houlihan 26, Simon Wiggins 26
Chris Judd 25, Richard Hadley 25, Setanta O’hAilpin 25, Jarrad Waite 25, Bret Thornton 25,
Andrew Carrazzo 25
Kade Simpson 24, Brad Fisher 24, Cameron Cloke 24
Adam Bentick 23
Andrew Walker 22, Jordan Russell 22, Eddie Betts 22, Adam Hartlett 22, Dennis Armfield 22,
Darren Pfeiffer 22, Michael Jamison 22, Chris Johnson 22
Marc Murphy 21, Jake Edwards 21, Robert Warnock 21, Greg Bentley 21
Shaun Grigg 20, Paul Bower 20, Shaun Hampson 20, Joe Anderson 20, Sam Jacobs 20
Bryce Gibbs 19, Matthew Kreuzer 19, Steven Browne 19, Mark Austin 19, Lachie Hill 19, Aaron Joseph 19, David Ellard 19, Mitch Robinson 19, Jeff Garlett 19
Chris Yarran 18, Rhys O’Keeffe 18, Luke Stanton 18
Caleb Tiller 17

2009 list 46 players 9 in, 7 out
4 x 18 or under, 9 x 19, 5 x 20, 4 x 21, 8 x 22, 1 x 23, 3 x 24, 6 x 25, 3 x 26, 1 x 27, 2 x 28

Games played by age - 506 games
18 or under - games
19 – games
20 – games
21 – games
22 – games
23 – games
24 – games
25 – games
26 – games
27 – games
28 – games

Finishing Position: 5th 7th 13 wins, 9 losses

2010​

Coach: Brett Ratten. Recruiting Manager: Wayne Hughes

Out: Stevens 29, Fevola 28, Bannister 27, Hartlett 23, Edwards 22, Bentick 24, Cloke 25, Hill 20, Pfeiffer 23, Stanton 19, Bentley 22

In: McLean 23, Henderson 20, Lucas 18, Davies 18, Kerr 18, Cachia 18, Dare 18, Casboult 19, White 21, Donaldson 18, Tuohy 20

List

Heath Scotland 29
Ryan Houlihan 27, Simon Wiggins 27
Chris Judd 26, Richard Hadley 26, Setanta O’hAilpin 26, Jarrad Waite 26, Bret Thornton 26,
Andrew Carrazzo 26
Kade Simpson 25, Brad Fisher 25
Andrew Walker 23, Jordan Russell 23, Eddie Betts 23, Dennis Armfield 23, Michael Jamison 23, Chris Johnson 23. Brock McLean 23
Marc Murphy 22, Robert Warnock 22
Shaun Grigg 21, Paul Bower 21, Shaun Hampson 21, Joe Anderson 21, Sam Jacobs 21, Simon White 21
Bryce Gibbs 20, Matthew Kreuzer 20, Steven Browne 20, Mark Austin 20, Aaron Joseph 20, David Ellard 20, Mitch Robinson 20, Jeff Garlett 20, Lachie Henderson 20, Zach Tuohy 20
Chris Yarran 19, Rhys O’Keeffe 19, Levi Casboult 19
Caleb Tiller 18, Kane Lucas 18, Marcus Davies 18, Rohan Kerr 18, Jaryd Cachia 18, Joe Dare 18, Josh Donaldson 18

2010 list 46 players 11 in, 11 out
7 x 18, 3 x 19, 10 x 20, 6 x 21, 2 x 22, 7 x 23, 2 x 25, 6 x 26, 2 x 27, 1 x 29

Games played by age - 506 games
18 - games
19 – games
20 – games
21 – games
22 – games
23 – games
24 – games
25 – games
26 – games
27 – games
28 – games

Finishing Position: 8th 11 wins, 11 losses

2011​

Coach: Brett Ratten. Recruiting Manager: Shane Rogers

Out: Wiggins 28, Grigg 22, Jacobs 22, Hadley 27, Fisher 26, C Johnson 24, Anderson 22, Browne 21, Tiller 19, Donaldson 19

In: Collins 22, Laidler 21, Watson 18, McCarthy 18, Mitchell 18, McInnes 18, Duigan 26, Curnow 21, Twomey 24, Carter 19, Blake Bray 18

List

Heath Scotland 30
Ryan Houlihan 28
Chris Judd 27, Setanta O’hAilpin 27, Jarrad Waite 27, Bret Thornton 27, Andrew Carrazzo 27
Kade Simpson 26, Nick Duigan 26
Andrew Walker 24, Jordan Russell 24, Eddie Betts 24, Dennis Armfield 24, Michael Jamison 24,
Brock McLean 24, Wayde Twomey 24
Marc Murphy 23, Robert Warnock 23
Paul Bower 22, Shaun Hampson 22, Simon White 22, Andrew Collins 22
Bryce Gibbs 21, Matthew Kreuzer 21, Mark Austin 21, Aaron Joseph 21, David Ellard 21, Mitch Robinson 21, Jeff Garlett 21, Lachie Henderson 21, Zach Tuohy 21, Jeremy Laidler 21, Ed Curnow 21
Chris Yarran 20, Rhys O’Keeffe 20, Levi Casboult 20
Kane Lucas 19, Marcus Davies 19, Rohan Kerr 19, Jaryd Cachia 19, Joe Dare 19, Mitch Carter 19
Matthew Watson 18, Patrick McCarthy 18, Luke Mitchell 18, Andrew McInnes 18, Blake Bray 18

2011 list 47 players 11 in, 10 out
5 x 18, 6 x 19, 3 x 20, 11 x 21, 4 x 22, 2 x 23, 7 x 24, 2 x 26, 5 x 27, 1 x 28, 1 x 30

Games played by age - 528 games
18 - games
19 – games
20 – games
21 – games
22 – games
23 – games
24 – games
25 – games
26 – games
27 – games
28 – games

Finishing Position: 5th 14 wins, 1 draw, 7 losses

2012​

Coach: Brett Ratten. Recruiting Manager:

Out: Houlihan 29, Cachia 20, Dare 20, Twomey 25, Austin 22, O'hAilpin 28

In: Buckley 18, Bootsma 18, Rowe 24, Bell 20, Heyne 21, Dale 18, Lodge 18

List

Heath Scotland 31
Chris Judd 28, Jarrad Waite 28, Bret Thornton 28, Andrew Carrazzo 28
Kade Simpson 27, Nick Duigan 27
Andrew Walker 25, Jordan Russell 25, Eddie Betts 25, Dennis Armfield 25, Michael Jamison 25,
Brock McLean 25
Marc Murphy 24, Robert Warnock 24, Sam Rowe 24
Paul Bower 23, Shaun Hampson 23, Simon White 23, Andrew Collins 23
Bryce Gibbs 22, Matthew Kreuzer 22, Aaron Joseph 22, David Ellard 22, Mitch Robinson 22, Jeff Garlett 22, Lachie Henderson 22, Zach Tuohy 22, Jeremy Laidler 22, Ed Curnow 22
Chris Yarran 21, Rhys O’Keeffe 21, Levi Casboult 21, Nick Heyne 21
Kane Lucas 20, Marcus Davies 20, Rohan Kerr 20, Mitch Carter 20, Tom Bell 20
Matthew Watson 19, Patrick McCarthy 19, Luke Mitchell 19, Andrew McInnes 19, Blake Bray 19
Dylan Buckley 18, Josh Bootsma 18, Frazer Dale 18, Matthew Lodge 18

2012 list - 48 players - Ratten - 7 in, 6 out
4 x 18, 5 x 19, 5 x 20, 4 x 21, 10 x 22, 4 x 23, 3 x 24, 6 x 25, 2 x 27, 4 x 28, 1 x 30+

Games by age - 484 games

18 – 7 games
19 – 18 games
20 – 17 games
21 – 26 games
22 – 157 games
23 – 37 games
24 – 21 games
25 – 96 games
27 – 35 games
28 – 49 games
30+ - 21 games

Finishing Position: 10th 11 wins, 11 losses

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Malthouse era 2013-2015

2013​

Coach: Mick Malthouse. Recruiting Manager:

Out: Kerr 21, Heyne 22, Carter 21, Bray 20, Lodge 19, Bower 24, Russell 26, Thornton 29
In: Menzel 18, Temay 18, Graham 18, Cachia 21

Heath Scotland 32
Jarrad Waite 29, Chris Judd 29, Andrew Carrazzo 29
Kade Simpson 28, Nick Duigan 28
Brock McLean 26, Andrew Walker 26, Michael Jamison 26, Dennis Armfield 26, Robert Warnock 26,
Eddie Betts 26
Marc Murphy 25, Sam Rowe 25
Simon White 24, David Ellard 24, Andrew Collins 24, Shaun Hampson 24
Bryce Gibbs 23, Matthew Kreuzer 23, Mitch Robinson 23, Jeff Garlett 23, Ed Curnow 23, Zach Tuohy 23, Lachie Henderson 23, Aaron Joseph 23, Jeremy Laidler 23
Levi Casboult 22, Chris Yarran 22, Rhys O’Keeffe 22
Jaryd Cachia 21, Tom Bell 21, Kane Lucas 21, Marcus Davies 21
Andrew McInnes 20, Matthew Watson 20, Luke Mitchell 20, Patrick McCarthy 20,
Dylan Buckley 19, Frazer Dale 19, Josh Bootsma 19
Tom Temay 18, Nick Graham 18, Troy Menzel 18

2013 list - 44 players - 4 in, 8 out
3 x 18, 3 x 19, 4 x 20, 4 x 21, 3 x 22, 9 x 23, 4 x 24, 2 x 25, 6 x 26, 2 x 28, 3 x 29, 1 x 30+

Games by age - 528 games

18 – 9 games
19 – 10 games
20 – 13 games
21 – 42 games
22 – 32 games
23 – 155 games
24 – 18 games
25 – 33 games
26 – 123 games
28 – 29 games
29 – 44 games
30+ - 20 games

Finishing Position: 9th 11 wins, 11 losses (6th after finals after taking Essendon’s place)

2014​

Coach: Mick Malthouse. Recruiting Manager: Shane Rogers

Out: Davies 22, Joseph 24, Mitchell 21, McCarthy 21, Collins 25, Dale 20, O'Keeffe 23, Betts 27, Hampson 25, Laidler 24

In: Byrne 19, Thomas 26, Docherty 20, Everitt 24, Sheehan 23, Cripps 18, Giles 18, Holman 18, Reynolds 18, Wood 26, Johnson 18

List

Heath Scotland 33, Jarrad Waite 31, Chris Judd 30, Andrew Carrazzo 30
Kade Simpson 29, Nick Duigan 29
Brock McLean 27, Andrew Walker 27, Michael Jamison 27, Dennis Armfield 27, Robert Warnock 27, Cameron Wood 27
Dale Thomas 26, Marc Murphy 26, Sam Rowe 26
Simon White 25, Andrejs Everitt 25, David Ellard 25
Bryce Gibbs 24, Matthew Kreuzer 24, Mitch Robinson 24, Jeff Garlett 24, Ed Curnow 24, Zach Tuohy 24, Lachie Henderson 24
Levi Casboult 23, Ciarán Sheehan 23, Chris Yarran 23
Jaryd Cachia 22, Tom Bell 22, Kane Lucas 22
Andrew McInnes 21, Matthew Watson 21, Josh Bootsma 21
Dylan Buckley 20, Sam Docherty 20,
Tom Temay 19, Nick Graham 19, Troy Menzel 19, Ciarán Byrne 19
Patrick Cripps 18, Cameron Giles 18, Nick Holman 18, Blaine Johnson 18, Luke Reynolds 18

2014 list 45 players 11 in, 10 out
5 x 18, 4 x 19, 2 x 20, 3 x 21, 3 x 22, 3 x 23, 7 x 24, 3 x 25, 3 x 26, 6 x 27, 2 x 29, 4 x 30+

Games by age - 484 games

18 – 9 games
19 – 27 games
20 – 24 games
21 – 4 games
22 – 20 games
23 – 44 games
24 – 44 games
25 – 49 games
26 – 61 games
27 – 80 games
29 – 22 games
30+ - 46 games

Finishing Position: 13th 7 wins, 1 draw, 14 losses

2015​

Coach: Mick Malthouse. Recruiting Manager: Shane Rogers

Out: Duigan 30, Scotland 34, Bootsma 22, McInnes 22, Temay 20, Cachia 23, Reynolds 19, Waite 32, Garlett 25, Lucas 23, McLean 28, Robinson 25

In: Russell 22, Gowers 18, Walsh 18, Fields 22, Jaksch 20, Whiley 22, Jones 23, Boekhorst 21, Viojo-Rainbow 18, Smith 18, Foster 19, Dick 20, Tutt 23

List

Chris Judd 31, Andrew Carrazzo 31. Kade Simpson 30
Andrew Walker 28, Michael Jamison 28, Dennis Armfield 28, Robert Warnock 28, Cameron Wood 28
Dale Thomas 27, Marc Murphy 27, Sam Rowe 27
Simon White 26, Andrejs Everitt 26, David Ellard 26
Bryce Gibbs 25, Matthew Kreuzer 25, Ed Curnow 25, Zach Tuohy 25, Lachie Henderson 25
Levi Casboult 24, Ciarán Sheehan 24, Chris Yarran 24
Tom Bell 23, Liam Jones 23, Jason Tutt 23
Matthew Watson 22. Fraser Russell 22, Tom Fields 22, Mark Whiley 22
Dylan Buckley 21, Sam Docherty 21, Blaine Boekhorst 21
Nick Graham 20, Troy Menzel 20, Ciarán Byrne 20, Kristian Jaksch 20, Matthew Dick 20
Patrick Cripps 19, Cameron Giles 19, Nick Holman 19, Blaine Johnson 19, Jayden Foster 19
Billy Gowers 18, Brad Walsh 18, Dillon Viojo-Rainbow 18, Clem Smith 18

2015 Ages 46 players 13 in, 12 out
4 x 18, 5 x 19, 5 x 20, 3 x 21, 4 x 22, 3 x 23, 3 x 24, 7 x 25, 1 x 26, 3 x 27, 5 x 28, 3 x 30+

Games by age - 484 games

18 – games
19 – games
20 – games
21 – games
22 – games
23 – games
24 – games
25 – games
26 – games
27 – games
29 – games
30+ - games

2015 Finishing Position – 18/18 4 wins 18 losses

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Bolton era 2016 -

2016​

Coach: Brendon Bolton. List Manager: Stephen Silvagni


Out: Judd 32 (retired), Carrazzo 32 (retired), Ellard 27 (retired), Henderson 27 (trade), Bell 24 (trade), Menzel 21 (trade), Yarran 25 (trade), Watson 23, Warnock 29, Holman 20, Walsh 19, Russell 23, Fields 23, Johnson 20, Giles 20


In: Weitering 18, McKay 18, C Curnow 18, Cuningham 18, Silvagni 18, Glass-McCasker 18, Gallucci 21, Kerridge 22, Plowman 21, Phillips 24, Lamb 23, Sumner 22, Gorringe 23, Wright 26, Korcheck 24


List

Kade Simpson 31
Andrew Walker 29, Michael Jamison 29, Dennis Armfield 29, Cameron Wood 29
Dale Thomas 28, Marc Murphy 28, Sam Rowe 28
Simon White 27, Andrejs Everitt 27
Bryce Gibbs 26, Matthew Kreuzer 26, Ed Curnow 26, Zach Tuohy 26, Matt Wright 26
Levi Casboult 25, Ciarán Sheehan 25
Liam Jones 24, Jason Tutt 24, Matt Korcheck 24, Andrew Phillips 24
Mark Whiley 23, Daniel Gorringe 23, Jed Lamb 23
Dylan Buckley 22, Sam Docherty 22, Blaine Boekhorst 22, Liam Sumner 22, Sam Kerridge 22
Nick Graham 21, Ciarán Byrne 21, Kristian Jaksch 21, Matthew Dick 21, Lachie Plowman 21, Andrew Gallucci 21
Patrick Cripps 20, Jayden Foster 20
Billy Gowers 19, Dillon Viojo-Rainbow 19, Clem Smith 19
Jacob Weitering 18, Harry McKay 18, Charles Curnow 18, David Cuningham 18, Jack Silvagni 18, Jesse Glass-McCasker 18

2016 Ages- 46 players - 15 in, 15 out
6 x 18, 3 x 19, 2 x 20, 6 x 21, 5 x 22, 3 x 23, 4 x 24, 2 x 25, 6 x 26, 1 x 27, 4 x 28, 3 x 29, 1 x 30+

Games by age - 484 games

18 - 37 games
20 - 21 games
21 - 43 games
22 - 77 games
23 - 20 games
24 - 25 games
25 - 20 games
26 - 108 games
27 - 30 games
28 - 50 games
29 - 31 games
30+ - 22 games

2016 Finishing Position – 14/18 7 wins 15 losses

2017
​

Coach: Brendon Bolton. List Manager: Stephen Silvagni


Out: Walker 30 (retired), Jamison 30 (retired), Wood (retired) 30, Dick 22, Foster 21, Smith 20, Tuohy 27 (trade), Everitt 28, Tutt 25, Viojo-Rainbow 20, Whiley 24, Gowers 20


In: Smedts 24, Marchbank 20, Pickett 20, Palmer 27, Petrevski-Seton 18, Fisher 18, Macreadie 18, Polson 18, Williamson 18, Kerr 18, LeBois 18, A Silvagni 29

List

Kade Simpson 32, Dennis Armfield 30
Dale Thomas 29, Marc Murphy 29, Sam Rowe 29, Alex Silvagni 29
Simon White 28
Bryce Gibbs 27, Matthew Kreuzer 27, Ed Curnow 27, Matt Wright 27, Rhys Palmer 27
Levi Casboult 26, Ciarán Sheehan 26
Liam Jones 25, Matt Korcheck 25, Andrew Phillips 25
Daniel Gorringe 24, Jed Lamb 24, Billie Smedts 24
Dylan Buckley 23, Sam Docherty 23, Blaine Boekhorst 23, Liam Sumner 23, Sam Kerridge 23
Nick Graham 22, Ciarán Byrne 22, Kristian Jaksch 22, Lachie Plowman 22, Andrew Gallucci 22
Patrick Cripps 21
Caleb Marchbank 20, Jarrod Pickett 20
Jacob Weitering 19, Harry McKay 19, Charles Curnow 19, David Cuningham 19, Jack Silvagni 19, Jesse Glass-McCasker 19
Sam Petrevski-Seton 18, Zac Fisher 18, Harrison Macreadie 18, Cameron Polson 18, Tom Williamson 18, Patrick Kerr 18, Kym LeBois 18

2017 Ages- 46 players - 12 in, 12 out
7 x 18, 6 x 19, 2 x 20, 1 x 21, 5 x 22, 5 x 23, 3 x 24, 3 x 25, 2 x 26, 5 x 27, 1 x 28, 4 x 29, 2 x 30+

Games by age - 484 games

18 - 61 games
19 - 73 games
20 - 26 games
21 - 15 games
22 - 34 games
23 - 45 games
24 - 20 games
25 - 13 games
26 - 24 games
27 - 79 games
28 - 11 games
29 - 56 games
30+ - 27 games

2017 Finishing Position – 16/18 6 wins 16 losses

2018
​

Coach: Brendon Bolton. GM List Management & Strategy: Stephen Silvagni. List Manager: Michael Agresta. National Recruiting Manager: Paul Brodie


Out: Armfield 31, Gorringe 25, Korcheck 26, Jaksch 23, Sumner 24, Gallucci 23, Gibbs 28, Buckley 24, Sheehan 27, Palmer 28, Boekhorst 24, Smedts 25, White 29


In: Lobbe 28, Kennedy 20, Lang 22, Mullett 25, McDaid 20, Dow 18, O'Brien 18, De Koning 18, Schumacher 18, Garlett 21, O'Shea 25, Shaw 25

List

Kade Simpson 33, Dale Thomas 30, Marc Murphy 30, Sam Rowe 30, Alex Silvagni 30
Matthew Kreuzer 28, Ed Curnow 28, Matthew Wright 28, Matthew Lobbe 28
Levi Casboult 27,
Liam Jones 26, Andrew Phillips 26
Jed Lamb 25, Aaron Mullett 25, Cameron O'Shea 25, Matt Shaw 25
Sam Docherty 24, Sam Kerridge 24
Nick Graham 23, Ciarán Byrne 23, Lachie Plowman 23,
Patrick Cripps 22, Darcy Lang 22
Caleb Marchbank 21, Jarrod Pickett 21, Jarrod Garlett 21
Jacob Weitering 20, Harry McKay 20, Charlie Curnow 20, David Cuningham 20, Jack Silvagni 20, Jesse Glass-McCasker 20, Matthew Kennedy 20, Cillian McDaid 20
Sam Petrevski-Seton 19, Zac Fisher 19, Harrison Macreadie 19, Cameron Polson 19, Tom Williamson 19, Patrick Kerr 19, Kym LeBois 19
Paddy Dow 18, Lochie O'Brien 18, Tom De Koning 18, Angus Schumacher 18

2018 Ages- 45 players - 12 in, 13 out
4 x 18, 7 x 19, 8 x 20, 3 x 21, 2 x 22, 3 x 23, 2 x 24, 4 x 25, 2 x 26, 1 x 27, 4 x 28, 0 x 29, 5 x 30+

Games by age - 484 games

18 - 40 games
19 - 55 games
20 - 79 games
21 - 30 games
22 - 33 games
23 - 30 games
24 - 10 games
25 - 44 games
26 - 22 games
27 - 10 games
28 - 60 games
30+ - 71 games

2018 Finishing Position – 18/18 2 wins 20 losses

2019
​

Coach: Brendon Bolton. GM List Management & Strategy: Stephen Silvagni. List Manager: Michael Agresta. National Recruiting Manager: Paul Brodie


Out: Shaw 26, O'Shea 26, Mullett 26, Glass-McCasker 21, Alex Silvagni 31


In:

List

Kade Simpson 34, Dale Thomas 31, Marc Murphy 31, Sam Rowe 31
Matthew Kreuzer 29, Ed Curnow 29, Matthew Wright 29, Matthew Lobbe 29
Levi Casboult 28
Liam Jones 27, Andrew Phillips 27
Jed Lamb 26
Sam Docherty 25, Sam Kerridge 25
Nick Graham 24, Ciarán Byrne 24, Lachie Plowman 24
Patrick Cripps 23, Darcy Lang 23
Caleb Marchbank 22, Jarrod Pickett 22, Jarrod Garlett 22
Jacob Weitering 21, Harry McKay 21, Charlie Curnow 21, David Cuningham 21, Jack Silvagni 21, Matthew Kennedy 21, Cillian McDaid 21
Sam Petrevski-Seton 20, Zac Fisher 20, Harrison Macreadie 20, Cameron Polson 20, Tom Williamson 20, Patrick Kerr 20, Kym LeBois 20
Paddy Dow 19, Lochie O'Brien 19, Tom De Koning 19, Angus Schumacher 19

2019 Ages- 40 players - 0 in, 5 out
0 x 18, 4 x 19, 7 x 20, 7 x 21, 3 x 22, 2 x 23, 3 x 24, 2 x 25, 1 x 26, 2 x 27, 1 x 28, 4 x 29, 4 x 30+

18 or under - games
19 - games
20 - games
21 - games
22 - games
23 - games
24 - games
25 - games
28 - games
30+ - games

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Started working on a couple of other teams. In 2004 Hawthorn finished 15th of 16 teams, 4 wins, 18 losses, just 1% off the bottom of the ladder. Clarkson came in, made a big trade, hit the draft hard, made little progress in his first year but got games into a lot of youngsters. Then made two big trades, hit the draft hard again without the same success in hindsight as the year before, made a handy PSD pickup but continued to get games into youngsters.

His age profile when he came in was similar to Carlton 2015. I've just looked at what he did in his first 2 seasons here but will fill in the rest as time permits. In his 3rd year, the Hawks made finals and in his 4th won a flag way ahead of schedule.

2004​

List

Kris Barlow 30, Mark Graham 30
Shane Crawford 29, Peter Everitt 29, Nick Holland 29
John Barker 28, Rayden Tallis 28, Simon Beaumont 28
Angelo Lekkas 27, Luke McCabe 27
Joel Smith 26, Richie Vandenberg 26, Ben Dixon 26
Nathan Thompson 25
Jonathan Hay 24
Danny Jacobs 23, Adrian Cox 23, Lance Picioane 23, Trent Croad 23, Chance Bateman 23, Doug Scott 23
Michael Rix 22
Sam Mitchell 21, Nathan Lonie 21, Robert Campbell 21, Nick Ries 21, Michael Osborne 21, Matthew Ball 21, Steven Greene 21, Tim Clarke 21
Campbell Brown 20, Mark Williams 20, Ben Kane 20
Luke Hodge 19, Rick Ladson 19, Brad Sewell 19, Paul Shelton 19, Tim Boyle 19
Luke Brennan 18, Harry Miller 18, Josh Thurgood 18, Ben Clifton 18, Shaun Bergin 18
Zac Dawson 17

Ages 43 players
6 x 18 or under, 5 x 19, 3 x 20, 8 x 21, 1 x 22, 6 x 23, 1 x 24, 1 x 25, 3 x 26, 2 x 27, 3 x 28, 3 x 29, 2 x 30+

2005​

Enter the Clarkson era.

Out: Thompson 26 (trade), Barlow 31, Graham 31, Tallis 29, Cox 24, Picioane 24, Shelton 20, Clifton 19, Rix 23, Bergin 19

In: Nixon 20, Roughead 17, Franklin 17, Lewis 18, Murphy 18, Little 18, Taylor 22, Kirkby 18, Young 18, Height 21

Peter Everitt 30, Nick Holland 30, Shane Crawford 30
Simon Beaumont 29, John Barker 29
Angelo Lekkas 28
Joel Smith 27, Ben Dixon 27, Richard Vandenberg 27
Jonathan Hay 25
Danny Jacobs 24, Chance Bateman 24, Trent Croad 24, Doug Scott 24
Sam Mitchell 22, Michael Osborne 22, Nathan Lonie 22, Nick Ries 22, Tim Clarke 22, Steven Greene 22, Matthew Ball 22, Robert Campbell 22, Simon Taylor 22
Mark Williams 21, Ben Kane 21, Campbell Brown 21, Kristan Height 21
Luke Hodge 20, Rick Ladson 20, Brad Sewell 20, Bo Nixon 20, Tim Boyle 20
Harry Miller 19, Luke Brennan 19, Josh Thurgood 19
Zac Dawson 18, Jordan Lewis 18, Thomas Murphy 18, Matt Little 18, Ruory Kirkby 18, Clinton Young 18
Jarryd Roughead 17, Lance Franklin 17

Ages 43 players 10 in, 10 out
8 x 18 or under, 3 x 19, 5 x 20, 4 x 21, 9 x 22, 4 x 24, 1 x 25, 3 x 27, 1 x 28, 2 x 29, 3 x 30+

Games by age
17y - 36 games
18y - 28 games
19y - 36 games
20y - 41 games
21y - 33 games
22y - 99 games
23y - 0 games
24y - 48 games
25y - 20 games
26y - 0 games
27y - 63 games
28y - 9 games
29y - 12 games
30y+ - 46 games

Finishing Position 14th of 16 teams, 5 wins, 17 losses

2006​

Out: Jonathon Hay 26 (trade), Nathan Lonie 23 (trade), Nick Holland 31 (Retired), Simon Beaumont 30 (Retired), Angelo Lekkas 29 (Retired), Steven Greene 23, Doug Scott 25, Bo Nixon 21, Kristan Height 22, Ruory Kirkby 19

In: Xavier Ellis 17, Beau Dowler 18, Grant Birchall 17, Max Bailey 19, Beau Muston 18, Travis Tuck 18, Brent Guerra 24, Luke McEntee 18, Lukas Markovic 18, Stephen Gilham 21, Ben McGlynn 20

List

Peter Everitt 31, Shane Crawford 31, John Barker 30
Joel Smith 28, Ben Dixon 28, Richard Vandenberg 28
Danny Jacobs 25, Chance Bateman 25, Trent Croad 25
Brent Guerra 24
Sam Mitchell 23, Tim Clarke 23, Michael Osborne 23, Nick Ries 23, Robert Campbell 23, Simon Taylor 23, Matthew Ball 23
Mark Williams 22, Ben Kane 22, Campbell Brown 22
Luke Hodge 21, Rick Ladson 21, Brad Sewell 21, Tim Boyle 21, Stephen Gilham 21
Harry Miller 20, Luke Brennan 20, Josh Thurgood 20, Ben McGlynn 20
Zac Dawson 19, Jordan Lewis 19, Thomas Murphy 19, Matt Little 19, Clinton Young 19, Max Bailey 19
Jarryd Roughead 18, Lance Franklin 18, Beau Muston 18, Travis Tuck 18, Luke McEntee 18,
Lukas Markovic 18, Beau Dowler 18
Xavier Ellis 17, Grant Birchall 17

2006 Ages 44 players 11 in, 10 out
9 x 18 or under, 6 x 19, 4 x 20, 5 x 21, 3 x 22, 7 x 23, 1 x 24, 3 x 25, 3 x 28, 3 x 30+

18 or under - 52 games
19 - 57 games
20 - 13 games
21 - 72 games
22 - 49 games
23 - 85 games
24 - 15 games
25 - 48 games
28 - 57 games
30+ - 36 games

 

[LordLucifer]

How do we rebuild a list?

(a) don't hang on to fringe players & list-cloggers longer than is necessary

(b) only draft players with genuine talent

(c) don't trade first-round picks on speculative offcasts from other clubs

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

How do we rebuild a list?

(a) don't hang on to fringe players & list-cloggers longer than is necessary

(b) only draft players with genuine talent

(c) don't trade first-round picks on speculative offcasts from other clubs

Some obvious but a little more to it. Structure and age profile have to come into it. Also, I don't think anybody drafts players they don't believe has genuine talent. Hawthorn had a boom draft but continued to throw youngsters into the side. Some worked, some didn't but they did create a wave of talent coming through.

I see what Mick was doing with the Jaksch, Whiley, #19 for #7 trade. Trying to fill some gaps in the 3rd/4th year profile as he was intent on getting rid of the ones that weren't working. Even if it works out the Clarkson model suggests he should have been looking for 25-26 year old trades, keeping the pick and hitting the draft to build that 18-19 year old profile back up again.

 

[HARKER]

(a) don't hang on to fringe players & list-cloggers longer than is necessary
Unless they add value to the training and culture of the whole.
(b) only draft players with genuine talent
Define talent? Like Troy Menzel talent? More to it than just talent, unfortunately.
(c) don't trade first-round picks on speculative offcasts from other clubs
No, don't. Are you referring to 2014 though? We'll see.

Something like that.

Everyone will have a different strategy and it all still has to relate to the talent available.
See St.Kilda circa 2013

 

[HARKER]

At the end of the day, SOS and co. will have a definite strategy at play, but if something completely unexpected pops up, one has to be practical enough to change tact. No point beating your chest for reeling in a host of second rounders if the talent/type just isn't right for the club.

 

[LordLucifer]

Some obvious but a little more to it. Structure and age profile have to come into it. Also, I don't think anybody drafts players they don't believe has genuine talent. Hawthorn had a boom draft but continued to throw youngsters into the side. Some worked, some didn't but they did create a wave of talent coming through.

I'm with you but also think we have taken a few too many players in the past on speculation (ie. knowing they have a glaring deficiency) when we could of played it way safer.

Hawthorn have made an artform of drafting, if the player in question cannot kick with precision, then they don't even consider him. We have to adopt a similar plan or create our own set of minimum standards to draft from, yes, we will get some wrong, hell, all clubs do but we have to increase the chances of getting then right.

I see what Mick was doing with the Jaksch, Whiley, #19 for #7 trade. Trying to fill some gaps in the 3rd/4th year profile as he was intent on getting rid of the ones that weren't working. Even if it works out the Clarkson model suggests he should have been looking for 25-26 year old trades, keeping the pick and hitting the draft to build that 18-19 year old profile back up again.

Totally agree, I thought it was smart horse trading at the time, we needed some youth on the list and they were ripe for the picking. Still not sure they will work out long-term but they are better than what we had languishing in the magoos.

 

[HARKER]

I see what Mick was doing with the Jaksch, Whiley, #19 for #7 trade. Trying to fill some gaps in the 3rd/4th year profile as he was intent on getting rid of the ones that weren't working. Even if it works out the Clarkson model suggests he should have been looking for 25-26 year old trades, keeping the pick and hitting the draft to build that 18-19 year old profile back up again.

Off Topic:
What if we rated Boekhorst within that top 7? Anyone think that may have been possible?
2014 draft wasn't rated very highly at all for tope end talent. Time will tell.

 

[passmark]

I'm not sure how much science SOS uses when selecting players.

I think it will be
a) can he play the way we want .
b) do we really need him
c) is he the right age
d) how much.

 

[LordLucifer]

Unless they add value to the training and culture of the whole.

No Harks, we cannot draft players or retain them just because they 'add value to the training and culture of the whole'.

If we were talking about a local suburban club then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you but we aren't, this is a multi-million dollar professional sporting outfit, we have to dramatically raise the standards across the board. Adding value to the training & culture should be a non-negotiable facet of every player at the club, not a redeeming feature to hang on to lesser lights.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Off Topic:
What if we rated Boekhorst within that top 7? Anyone think that may have been possible?
2014 draft wasn't rated very highly at all for tope end talent. Time will tell.

It may work out fine. I don't believe we handled our age profile in our 22 and under list very well after 2012 so when we keep topping up 21, 22, 23 year olds that are obviously going to be a lot older if we sink to the bottom and have to rebuild again, these ones stand out for the ages involved, if not the player quality.

Pagan addressed an aging list and a dearth of youngsters well, but we didn't have the picks until his last two drafts and failed to identify much talent. Still, the idea is to replace older failed players with younger players if you are rebuilding, even if they are speculative. Not all at once, and certainly don't get rid of sure fire best 22 players because they have reached a certain age. They should just be managed more, not play every game. Pagan recruited a heap of older speculative players and that is where he went wrong.

Ratten continued what Pagan had started in terms of keeping up the under 22 numbers and managing the older players so we didn't have too many. As our results improved Ratten maintained the numbers and allowed a large core of best 22 players to come through. These are the 26 year olds we see today that will make our list look older next year, that were best 22 in 2011 and we had to hold on to as we didn't have enough coming through underneath.

A massive shift came in 2013 as Mick came in and after discussing with McKay, Rogers etc, decided he would wait a year and assess, that block of 22 year olds Ratten had turned 23, Mick trimmed some of the 19, 20, 21 year olds just a touch, didn't trade, failed to hit the draft with any purpose and our Under 22 profile plummeted.

Some will say that he had to get rid of the deadwood he inherited, but so did Pagan, so did Ratten. They did so, but they also maintained the youth supplies by whatever means possible. Draft, Rookie Draft, International players, they kept the youth coming in.

2013 was our crossroads in a sense. We obviously rated ourselves and Mick must have brought into that. What happened may have happened because the players did not buy into the game plan, and I think we can agree they never did that for whatever reason. If anybody had decided our list wasn't up to it, we would have invested in youth.

2014 we maintained the low youth profile as we had played finals through good fortune and still believed we were a top 8 side.

2015 the reality had hit after a poor last season but we still didn't hit the 18 year olds to any great degree, instead investing in 20 year olds. We had a couple of retirements but had to rely on more at the end of the season to manage those older players properly.

Now, I'm not saying that we should get too many 18 year olds in any one season. Richmond added 10 or so when Hardwick first came in and 6 of them were gone within 3 years.

We got 6 18 year olds this year. Would have preferred 7 or 8 considering where we were coming from, but given we traded well, hit the draft with quality picks and managed our top end ages well, it was a good start. We will need to start looking at the 27 and over players at the end of the year when a heap of 26 year olds are now 27.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

I'm not sure how much science SOS uses when selecting players.

I think it will be
a) can he play the way we want .
b) do we really need him
c) is he the right age
d) how much.

I don't think we are looking at the next season when he looks at that criteria though. We are most definitely looking long term so c) has a higher weighting.

Weitering round 1, Curnow round 2, Cuningham an emergency. I don't think we will be as stringent as far as making players earn it for the next year or two. We all know Graham should have played more earlier if we had an inkling we needed to rebuild soon.

 

[HARKER]

No Harks, we cannot draft players or retain them just because they 'add value to the training and culture of the whole'.

If we were talking about a local suburban club then I'd wholeheartedly agree with you but we aren't, this is a multi-million dollar professional sporting outfit, we have to dramatically raise the standards across the board. Adding value to the training & culture should be a non-negotiable facet of every player at the club, not a redeeming feature to hang on to lesser lights.

We retained White and Armfield for reasons not solely based on talent.

We have continued to recruit players that want to play for the club and not just because they may be perceived to be the best talent available.

Yes, the fit has to be right by way of ability but not at the expense of having more airheads on the squad. Bootsma had talent to burn......as did Yarran......as did Menzel, and where did they get us?

Get the culture right first and watch just how much better 'the team' (as it is a team game) will perform.

 

[LordLucifer]

We retained White and Armfield for reasons not solely based on talent.

We have continued to recruit players that want to play for the club and not just because they may be perceived to be the best talent available.

Yes, the fit has to be right by way of ability but not at the expense of having more airheads on the squad. Bootsma had talent to burn......as did Yarran......as did Menzel, and where did they get us?

Get the culture right first and watch just how much better 'the team' (as it is a team game) will perform.

We retained them because we couldn't replace them with anything better, had nothing to do with their training attitude.

And if we keep recruiting players based on their good guy personality instead of their footballing ability, then we may as well shuffle off to a suburban league permanently.

Bootsma was limited in talent and in grey matter, poor example. I'll agree with you about Menzel & Yarran, they had s**t attitudes but they did have talent if and when they wanted to show it.

Thing is, most players get interviewed pre-draft and do psyche tests etc to ascertain where they fit mentally. This is not an exact science and its the one area that most clubs fall over in because a lot of it doesn't come out till they have been at the club for some time (players are under different pressures in games and at training etc).

If we commit to drafting highly talented players first and foremost then we are giving ourselves every opportunity to succeed. However, if they fall-over on attitudinal deficiencies after the club has done as thorough research as they possibly can in that area then we just have to wear it.

 

[passmark]

I don't think we are looking at the next season when he looks at that criteria though. We are most definitely looking long term so c) has a higher weighting.

Weitering round 1, Curnow round 2, Cuningham an emergency. I don't think we will be as stringent as far as making players earn it for the next year or two. We all know Graham should have played more earlier if we had an inkling we needed to rebuild soon.

Obviously I'm guessing but I honestly think SOS looks at a guys an thinks "can he play?" and if he doesn't then you've got an uphill battle to get in his good books.

It's why I fear for a lot of those guys he didn't select.

 

[The Old Dark Navy's]

Obviously I'm guessing but I honestly think SOS looks at a guys an thinks "can he play?" and if he doesn't then you've got an uphill battle to get in his good books.

It's why I fear for a lot of those guys he didn't select.

Perhaps but meanwhile guys like Buckley and Graham and Boekhorst are getting opportunity to prove themselves before SOS gets an itchy firing finger. Shouldn't be too many unknowns getting delisted. Maybe the likes of DVR, Smith and Foster will start getting anxious.

 

[Doro]

Obviously I'm guessing but I honestly think SOS looks at a guys an thinks "can he play?" and if he doesn't then you've got an uphill battle to get in his good books.

It's why I fear for a lot of those guys he didn't select.

Sos isn't calling the shots with match committee though. If Bolts wants a look at clem, dvr, foster etc he'll get his way.

 

[passmark]

Sos isn't calling the shots with match committee though. If Bolts wants a look at clem, dvr, foster etc he'll get his way.

No doubt.

But at the end of the year the ledger comes out and he makes the call.

i'm not saying it's a bad thing, I'm just hoping he's right A LOT!!