Carlton player Liam Jones refusing vax - Update: Jones retires from AFL

[And_ROOS]

Do you mandate that of fat people eating burgers? Don't call an ambulance if you are having a heart attack?

What about the ambulance at footy grounds? sorry mate - you broke your leg - but you took unneccessary risks playing a combat sport.

When was the last time someone eating a burger near you gave you a heart attack or diabetes?

 

[sprockets]

Cars have a pretty obvious benefit to society. What benefit does Covid have to society?

Gets rid of the dummies.

 

[Acinath]

I'll pay for your vasectomy. For the benefit of society.

A few in this thread need the snip for the benefit of society, absolute bellends

 

[The Falcon Strike]

I disagree.

Eg seat belts.

Hardly the same right? Temporary strap - your aren't required to have it permanently.

 

[Del165198]

Do you mandate that of fat people eating burgers? Don't call an ambulance if you are having a heart attack?

What about the ambulance at footy grounds? sorry mate - you broke your leg - but you took unneccessary risks playing a combat sport.

Do we mandate people go to jail if they knowingly infect someone with HIV?

 

[HaroLad]

I realise it isn’t one of your esteemed Youtube conspiracist, but it’s credible enough for scientists and major international news agencies to reference.

COVID-19 Map - Johns Hopkins Coronavirus Resource Center

Coronavirus COVID-19 Global Cases by the Center for Systems Science and Engineering (CSSE) at Johns Hopkins University (JHU)

coronavirus.jhu.edu

Over 5 million according to Worldometer. Pretty trustworthy source.

The vaccine limits chance of dying, getting sick and spreading the virus. Given how dangerous the delta variant is and how quickly its spread 90% vaccine rate may be needed to achieve herd immunity.

Plus the more people dilly dally and refuse to get vaccinated and spread it the greater the chance of the it jumping the vaccine undoing all the good work done so far by people getting vaccinated.

I don't watch YouTube or use any form of social media. A website is not a credible source.

Proving causation can be very difficult. Compiling data from 'worldwide' sources and labelling them objectively as covid deaths is apt to attract error. There will invariably be remarkably different methods in collating and qualifying a death as a 'covid death' from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

For instance, in this country at least 72% of those who have 'died of covid' had existing chronic conditions certified on the death certificate.

There is no way of objectively ascertaining the amount of people who have 'died of COVID' - especially worldwide.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Do we mandate people go to jail if they knowingly infect someone with HIV?

Yep - and i'd imagine if someone knowingly went and infected someone deliberately with COVID and they were killed they'd be up on charges too.

 

[And_ROOS]

Research in England and in The Netherlands has also shown that an un-vaccinated person is no greater threat than a vaccinated person in passing on the virus to other people. I’ve had my jabs so it makes absolutely no difference to me whether the person next to me has been vaxed or not.

No the research says that the both have the same viral load at peak, BUT (and this is the clear distinction) that vaccinated people clear it out of the system quicker.

So if you are contagious for 2 days approx when you are vaccinated, compared to 5-9 days approx for someone unvaccinated, who is the more likely based on that stat alone to spread the virus?

And good that you had your jab, but there are genuinely immunocomprimised people who can't get the jab, and then have to hope the anti-vaxx community don't go out in big numbers and cause a super spreader event like they did at the Melbourne protest.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

When was the last time someone eating a burger near you gave you a heart attack or diabetes?

The post I was referring to was discussing the person not getting medical help, not their infectiousness.

 

[Brett C]

All of those are stopping you doing something. None are forcing you to do something.

We don't mandate fat people eat vegetables - and last i checked heart disease will kill more people than COVID ever will.

I no longer want to pay taxes, by your logic that’s okay as I’m being forced to do something I don’t want to.
Guess I don’t need a licence either or a passport to travel overseas.

Might decide to take a dump on a bus because who’s the government to tell me no.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

No the research says that the both have the same viral load at peak, BUT (and this is the clear distinction) that vaccinated people clear it out of the system quicker.

So if you are contagious for 2 days approx when you are vaccinated, compared to 5-9 days approx for someone unvaccinated, who is the more likely based on that stat alone to spread the virus?

And good that you had your jab, but there are genuinely immunocomprimised people who can't get the jab, and then have to hope the anti-vaxx community don't go out in big numbers and cause a super spreader event like they did at the Melbourne protest.

It's about a 65% reduction (in transmissibilty) from the latest data

 

[Funk]

It will be the biggest idiot on list. The one with the lowest IQ. Mitch Robertson, oh that’s right he no longer plays for Carlton.

if your IQ was a bit higher you’d be chance to spell his name correctly you moron

 

[Del165198]

Research in England and in The Netherlands has also shown that an un-vaccinated person is no greater threat than a vaccinated person in passing on the virus to other people. I’ve had my jabs so it makes absolutely no difference to me whether the person next to me has been vaxed or not.

But if you're unvaccinated you're more likely to catch it in the first place. You can't spread it if you don't have it.

Yes you can still be infected despite vaccination, but it's less likely. That's how it works.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

I no longer want to pay taxes, by your logic that’s okay as I’m being forced to do something I don’t want to.
Guess I don’t need a licence either or a passport to travel overseas.

Might decide to take a dump on a bus because who’s the government to tell me no.

Well done on joining the crazy conspiracy theories in your massive false equivalence.

Someone has the right to refuse treatment and let nature take it's course

Someone has the right to end their life if their health is failing them miserably.

We allow people to make choices with their body.

Comparing that to our financial system is folly.

 

[Xtreme]

Over 5 million people dead. Many more people than that only still alive because of respirators. Countless people that will suffer the long term effects of COVID for the rest of their life.

Yet people still think a vaccine that has been proven effective with minimal side effects is somehow much worse.

Hmmm you can go outside cross the road and get hit by a bus....

There are risks in all aspects of life. Personally I'm fine with living my life as normal with "the fleeting beast" (Brett Duttons words) lurking around the corner, thats an acceptable risk in my eyes.

Getting an injection that will harm me if I did get it, is an unacceptable risk for myself. Hence why I have an exemption (which I haven't even needed to show to many people anyway lol).

 

[bing181]

People who say "look at the rates of autism since 1900" don't realise that its because they can detect it better, and they recognise what it is. Numbers for ADHD and depression have gone up as well. My friends Grampa said depression didn't exist back in his day.

Actually, autism didn't "exist" until it was first described as such by a German-American psychiatrist in 1943. But there wasn't a proper diagnosis till 1980, with the broader, more contemporary understanding of autism not being codified until 1994. The recent 2013 update is a further improvement, but still leaves a lot to be desired, especially for girls and women (for example).

I'm fairly up-to-speed on this stuff because I'm autistic, though not diagnosed till late in life because of the above.

Anyway, back to footy/Carlton/guess-the-player.

 

[quotemokc]

"Your right to swing your arms ends just where the other man's nose begins"

What does that even mean in the context of the virus?

Me swinging my arms near someone is wholly on me choosing to do so.

I don't go around blaming people with the virus for giving it to others. (Jabbed or not jabbed)

 

[Forward Press]

What does that even mean in the context of the virus?

Me swinging my arms near someone is wholly on me choosing to do so.

I don't go around blaming people with the virus for giving it to others. (Jabbed or not jabbed)

It means vaccinations aren't just for you - it's for the health of those around you as well.

If the virus was not contagious then by all means, do what you want. But COVID is not that. Some people cannot get vaccinated and some people die even when vaccinated - so why increase the risk of others getting COVID from you needlessly?

"Blah blah vaccines don't always stop you getting it or transmitting it to others" - but it reduces it greatly, and you are far less likely to be a burden on the health system too. It's a no brainer. Do you wear seat belts? They don't prevent you dying in a car crash - why bother then eh? My body, my rights.

 

[sherb]

Hardly the same right? Temporary strap - your aren't required to have it permanently.

I was simply challenging your statement that "None are forcing you to do something."

 

[SSwans2011]

There's actually a correlation to how dark your skin colour is and how likely you are to politely refuse the covid-19 vaccine. Non-white minorities bat above their average in regards to hesitancy.

It would be a shame for Carlton to lose a structure player

And in fairness, there's historical context for why many of them are weary, although this is a more prevalent phenomena in the US, and there's been some First Nations activitst groups in Australia that have done a great job to give vaccine access and provide a welcoming environment.

Regardless, a number of people in this thread are missing the point. They're right that people are scared, but not for their own safety despite being vaccinated, for the safety of their parents, grandparents, and other vulnerable friends and relatives. My grandparents are both vaccinated, but if they caught the virus because some flog thought they were more educated on this topic than scientists and doctors, I would be ****ing furious.

Am I scared about catching the virus myself? **** no. But do I have friends and relatives I'm scared about catching the virus? You ****ing bet I am.

 

[Del165198]

I don't watch YouTube or use any form of social media. A website is not a credible source.

Proving causation can be very difficult. Compiling data from 'worldwide' sources and labelling them objectively as covid deaths is apt to attract error. There will invariably be remarkably different methods in collating and qualifying a death as a 'covid death' from jurisdiction to jurisdiction.

For instance, in this country at least 72% of those who have 'died of covid' had existing chronic conditions certified on the death certificate.

There is no way of objectively ascertaining the amount of people who have 'died of COVID' - especially worldwide.

you'd be familiar with the excess deaths metric then and how it's actually higher than recorded covid deaths in most countries badly effected by the pandemic?

 

[The Falcon Strike]

I was simply challenging your statement that "None are forcing you to do something."

Fair cop - but a seat belt is different to permanent medical treatment though.

There is one thing no one ever has an answer for - what is the long (or medium) term safety of the vaccine?

That one stumps everyone.

For me the unknown risk was inconsequential to the risk of COVID - it's why i got vaccinated. But it is a valid concern.

 

[Hawk Dork]

Hmmm you can go outside cross the road and get hit by a bus....

There are risks in all aspects of life. Personally I'm fine with living my life as normal with "the fleeting beast" (Brett Duttons words) lurking around the corner, thats an acceptable risk in my eyes.

Getting an injection that will harm me if I did get it, is an unacceptable risk for myself. Hence why I have an exemption (which I haven't even needed to show to many people anyway lol).

Doors were open until late Nov 24 then its a fresh official exemption every few months if you want to live a normal life

 

[HaroLad]

you'd be familiar with the excess deaths metric then and how it's actually higher than recorded covid deaths in most countries badly effected by the pandemic?

No, but thank you for furthering my point about how stating as though it were objective fact ‘5 million dead’ is akin to pulling a figure from thin air. Any estimate is necessarily inaccurate, and anyone making such an estimate has a vested interest, implicit or otherwise, in tweaking the requirements so as to make it seem higher than it is.

 

[coryne]

Its all to do with being afraid. If you werent you wouldnt give 2 shits who else is vaccinated if you are. Why would you care. No one logical GAF...

Un-vaccinated people both endanger those who cannot get vaccinated for legitimate reasons, such as being immune-compromised or too young, and they provide a population where the virus can survive and mutate within, leading to variants which can then affect those who are vaccinated.

Social media has done one thing, allowed the vocal minority a space where they can find like-minded people and amplify their opinions. Conspericy theories like the anti-vax movements are the outcome of such situations .........