Carlton player Liam Jones refusing vax - Update: Jones retires from AFL

[Forward Press]

Many people dont understand epidemiology
On poster wrote about 162 deaths in 7 months due to "cardiac arrest" from the reporting data.....Given that aprox 20,000 to 30,000 Australians die of cardiac arrest each year and given the fact that 90% of Australians have had one or more vaccines, the fact that 162 of them had a covid vaccine comes as no great surprise.....
If 90% of a population all wear blue shirts and a percentage of them die, do blue shirts cause death??

WHY AREN'T WE BANNING BLUE SHIRTS WAKE UP SHEEPLE

 

[HairyO]

So who’s the pushback coming from? Anyone with a vested interest in getting anyone from any age vaccinated? Have you researched heart inflammation risks in young people? Not just the 1 article published?

what I’m debating is the “ benefits “ of getting young people vaccinated as opposed to the risk

common Pro jab behaviour is to argue against any report not suiting there own

so what’s your view on a suitable age to jab young people? 15,5,2, newborn?

12+ is safe and there are studies on younger and when known we will either see it happen or not.

Have you noticed how the rollout is done in stages?

BTW still waiting to hear what AstraZeneca have to gain.

 

[kingswood71]

So who’s the pushback coming from? Anyone with a vested interest in getting anyone from any age vaccinated? Have you researched heart inflammation risks in young people? Not just the 1 article published?

what I’m debating is the “ benefits “ of getting young people vaccinated as opposed to the risk

common Pro jab behaviour is to argue against any report not suiting there own

so what’s your view on a suitable age to jab young people? 15,5,2, newborn?

If you are serious about debating the benefits v risks, then read proper studies. Not just news articles and journal abstracts.
heres one to get you started:

Myocarditis With COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines

Myocarditis has been recognized as a rare complication of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) mRNA vaccinations, especially in young adult and adolescent males. According to the US Centers for Diseas

www.ahajournals.org

And here are some more references to read:
1. Kyto V, Sipila J, Rautava P. Gender differences in myocarditis: a nationwide study in Finland. Eur Heart J. 2013;34(suppl_1). doi:10.1093/eurheartj/eht309.3505
2.Li X, Ostropolets A, Makadia R, et al. Characterising the background incidence rates of adverse events of special interest for covid-19 vaccines in eight countries: multinational network cohort study. BMJ. 2021;373:n1435. doi:10.1136/bmj.n1435
3.Montgomery J, Ryan M, Engler R, et al. Myocarditis Following Immunization With mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines in Members of the US Military. JAMA Cardiol. Published online
June 29, 2021. doi:10.1001/jamacardio.2021.2833
4.Kim HW, Jenista ER, Wendell DC, et al. Patients With Acute Myocarditis Following mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination. JAMA Cardiol. Published online June 29, 2021.
doi:10.1001/jamacardio.2021.2828
5.Abu Mouch S, Roguin A, Hellou E, et al. Myocarditis following COVID-19 mRNA vaccination. Vaccine. 2021;39(29):3790-3793. doi:10.1016/j.vaccine.2021.05.087
6.Rosner CM, Genovese L, Tehrani BN, et al. Myocarditis Temporally Associated with COVID-19 Vaccination. Circulation. 0(0). doi:10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.121.055891
7.Larson KF, Ammirati E, Adler ED, et al. Myocarditis after BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273 Vaccination. Circulation. 0(0). doi:10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.121.055913
8.Medicines and Healthcare Regulatory Agency. Coronavirus vaccine - weekly summary of Yellow Card reporting. Published July 9, 2021.
Public Health Ontario. Enhanced Epidemiological Summary.
9. Myocarditis and Pericarditis Following Vaccination with COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines in Ontario: December 13, 2020 to August 7, 2021. Published online.
10.Marshall M, Ferguson ID, Lewis P, et al. Symptomatic acute myocarditis in seven adolescents following Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccination. Pediatrics. Published online
2021:2.
11.Snapiri O, Rosenberg Danziger C, Shirman N, et al. Transient Cardiac Injury in Adolescents Receiving the BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 Vaccine. Pediatr Infect Dis J.
Published online June 2, 2021. doi:10.1097/INF.0000000000003235
12.Barda N, Dagan N, Ben-Shlomo Y, et al. Safety of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine in a Nationwide Setting. N Engl J Med. 2021;0(0):null. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2110475
13.Mevorach D, Anis E, Cedar N, et al. Myocarditis after BNT162b2 mRNA Vaccine against Covid-19 in Israel. N Engl J Med. 2021;0(0):null. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2109730
14.Witberg G, Barda N, Hoss S, et al. Myocarditis after Covid-19 Vaccination in a Large Health Care Organization. N Engl J Med. Published online October 6, 2021.
doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2110737
15.Gargano JW. Use of mRNA COVID-19 Vaccine After Reports of Myocarditis Among Vaccine Recipients: Update from the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices — United States, June 2021. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2021;70. doi:10.15585/mmwr.mm7027e2
16.Su J. Myopericarditis following COVID-19 vaccine: Updates from the Vaccine Adverse Events Reporting System (VAERS).
Source: The TGA guidance document on myocarditis and mRNA vaccines https://www.health.gov.au/sites/def...ricarditis-after-mrna-covid-19-vaccines_1.pdf
Which i have read, many times...have you??

 

[kingswood71]

WHY AREN'T WE BANNING BLUE SHIRTS WAKE UP SHEEPLE

I want to die with a blue shirt, not of a blue shirt!!

 

[Gruffles]

blue shirts cause death

Headline... Doctor confirms link between methylene blue and death!

Thanks for the heads up... I've just burnt all of my blue clothes. Phew!

 

[Forward Press]

If you are serious about debating the benefits v risks, then read proper studies. Not just news articles and journal abstracts.
heres one to get you started:

Myocarditis With COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines

Myocarditis has been recognized as a rare complication of coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) mRNA vaccinations, especially in young adult and adolescent males. According to the US Centers for Diseas

www.ahajournals.org

And here are some more references to read:
1. Kyto V, Sipila J, Rautava P. Gender differences in myocarditis: a nationwide study in
Finland. Eur Heart J. 2013;34(suppl_1). doi:10.1093/eurheartj/eht309.3505
2.Li X, Ostropolets A, Makadia R, et al. Characterising the background incidence rates of
adverse events of special interest for covid-19 vaccines in eight countries: multinational network
cohort study. BMJ. 2021;373:n1435. doi:10.1136/bmj.n1435
3.Montgomery J, Ryan M, Engler R, et al. Myocarditis Following Immunization With
mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines in Members of the US Military. JAMA Cardiol. Published online
June 29, 2021. doi:10.1001/jamacardio.2021.2833
4.Kim HW, Jenista ER, Wendell DC, et al. Patients With Acute Myocarditis Following
mRNA COVID-19 Vaccination. JAMA Cardiol. Published online June 29, 2021.
doi:10.1001/jamacardio.2021.2828
5.Abu Mouch S, Roguin A, Hellou E, et al. Myocarditis following COVID-19 mRNA
vaccination. Vaccine. 2021;39(29):3790-3793. doi:10.1016/j.vaccine.2021.05.087
6.Rosner CM, Genovese L, Tehrani BN, et al. Myocarditis Temporally Associated with
COVID-19 Vaccination. Circulation. 0(0). doi:10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.121.055891
7.Larson KF, Ammirati E, Adler ED, et al. Myocarditis after BNT162b2 and mRNA-1273
Vaccination. Circulation. 0(0). doi:10.1161/CIRCULATIONAHA.121.055913
8.Medicines and Healthcare Regulatory Agency. Coronavirus vaccine - weekly summary
of Yellow Card reporting. Published July 9, 2021.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/coronavirus-covid-19-vaccine-adverse-

reactions/coronavirus-vaccine-summary-of-yellow-card-reporting
Public Health Ontario. Enhanced Epidemiological Summary. Myocarditis and
9.Pericarditis Following Vaccination with COVID-19 mRNA Vaccines in Ontario: December 13,
2020 to August 7, 2021. Published online. Available at https://www.publichealthontario.ca/-
/media/documents/ncov/epi/covid-19-myocarditis-pericarditis-vaccines-epi.pdf?sc_lang=en.
10.Marshall M, Ferguson ID, Lewis P, et al. Symptomatic acute myocarditis in seven
adolescents following Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 vaccination. Pediatrics. Published online
2021:2.
11.Snapiri O, Rosenberg Danziger C, Shirman N, et al. Transient Cardiac Injury in
Adolescents Receiving the BNT162b2 mRNA COVID-19 Vaccine. Pediatr Infect Dis J.
Published online June 2, 2021. doi:10.1097/INF.0000000000003235
12.Barda N, Dagan N, Ben-Shlomo Y, et al. Safety of the BNT162b2 mRNA Covid-19
Vaccine in a Nationwide Setting. N Engl J Med. 2021;0(0):null. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2110475
13.Mevorach D, Anis E, Cedar N, et al. Myocarditis after BNT162b2 mRNA Vaccine
against Covid-19 in Israel. N Engl J Med. 2021;0(0):null. doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2109730
14.Witberg G, Barda N, Hoss S, et al. Myocarditis after Covid-19 Vaccination in a Large
Health Care Organization. N Engl J Med. Published online October 6, 2021.
doi:10.1056/NEJMoa2110737
15.Gargano JW. Use of mRNA COVID-19 Vaccine After Reports of Myocarditis Among
Vaccine Recipients: Update from the Advisory Committee on Immunization Practices — United
States, June 2021. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep. 2021;70. doi:10.15585/mmwr.mm7027e2
16.Su J. Myopericarditis following COVID-19 vaccine: Updates from the Vaccine Adverse
Events Reporting System (VAERS). Presented at the: October 21, 2021.

https://www.cdc.gov/vaccines/acip/meetings/downloads/slides-2021-10-20-21/07-COVID-Su-

508.pdf
Source: The TGA guidance document on myocarditis and mRNA vaccines https://www.health.gov.au/sites/def...ricarditis-after-mrna-covid-19-vaccines_1.pdf

You know what else is far more likely to cause myocarditis?

COVID.

The mind still boggles at the mental gymnastics to avoid vaccines such as Pfizer.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

plenty of information with a simple search on phizzer heart inflammation concerns for younger people, rare but a concern. Anyway after scrolling through your continual dribble you will only read what agrees with your mindset.

Thanks Mr Anti Vax. I’m not fussed just don’t come whinging when you are restricted. No it going to concern me now we have reached a new norm and that’s it.

 

[kingswood71]

You know what else is far more likely to cause myocarditis?

COVID.

The mind still boggles at the mental gymnastics to avoid vaccines such as Pfizer.

Hence my earlier post about background incidences of myocarditis and also the incidence rate of myocarditis in covid infections
COVID-19 is estimated to cause myocarditis at a rate of 11.0 events per 100,000 persons, whilst Comirnaty Pfizer) vaccine has been estimated to cause myocarditis at an overall rate of 2.7 events per 100,000 persons.

 

[Drought Break]

Thanks Mr Anti Vax. I’m not fussed just don’t come whinging when you are restricted. No it going to concern me now we have reached a new norm and that’s it.

Double jabbed thanks mate. Ya want a copy of my certificate?

 

[Ashman OG]

The consequences are not being able to play footy as well as all the other life constraints that come with not being vaccinated.

Are you really that daft that i have to explain this?

Doesnt make a difference to anyone else if hes vaccinated or not.
Its only the power hungry gov that are forcing people to get it or lose their jobs.
The snowflakes in this country have let shit go way too far.
Lets see how this magic vax goes against the new strain out of euro winter.
Daddy dan already getting his bill ready for another lockdown.
But when it happens most people will be all good with it, just as long as they ‘do their part.’ Pathetic.

 

[The 747]

dunno, Phizzer making a motza but.

So you don't know the answer, you don't know the name of two of the major vaccines, you don't read or understand the links you post and you can't spell Pfizer. Convincing.

 

[The 747]

Doesnt make a difference to anyone else if hes vaccinated or not.
Its only the power hungry gov that are forcing people to get it or lose their jobs.
The snowflakes in this country have let sh*t go way too far.
Lets see how this magic vax goes against the new strain out of euro winter.
Daddy dan already getting his bill ready for another lockdown.
But when it happens most people will be all good with it, just as long as they ‘do their part.’ Pathetic.

Well iit makes a difference to whether he can play AFL next year so it is pretty relevant.

 

[LukeParkerno1]

Double jabbed thanks mate. Ya want a copy of my certificate?

Then what’s the whinge about. It’s a new norm everyone should just get on with life and the vax is just like the flu shot not a big deal takes all of 10 seconds

 

[theyellowsash]

Quick question - how many boosters and at what interval would it take for you to say enough is enough and not wish to have any more covid vaccines injected into you?

Why are you so obsessed with the issue of booster shots? Many vaccines don't last forever and require boosters, why should the covid vaccine be any different? Its not like the government are charging money for it, its free. If it was safe the first time then it's safe the 3rd time. What's the problem?

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

what I’m debating is the “ benefits “ of getting young people vaccinated as opposed to the risk

You're not really debating.

You're flailing desperately.

 

[Dan1979]

Utter nonsense. If you are going to make statements about medical issues, actually understand them.

This is a different technology to the usual vaccines for some of the products. Nobody, not even the manufacturers themselves, no the long-term impacts. This is clear in all the approval documents and is basic medical science.

Does that mean there is going to be issues? I would give it a less than 5% chance. Hence why I made the personal decision to get vaccinated. Risk vs reward. There is risk in deciding to leave your home each day.

If you are going to make arrogant pronouncements about things and get on a soap box, understand what you are talking about.

On that logic. No approved drug is safe. A standard clinic trial and approval time line is between 3 to 5 years. Even at 5 years, it’s not really enough time to assess the “long term impacts”…….. unless you deem a lifetime to be 7 years!!! mRNA technology is decades old. The notion that COVID vaccines were started from scratch is silly. Corona viruses have been treated for many years. Covid is simply a new variation of a virus that was discovered many years ago and been treated for many many years. Just because it didn’t hit the western world, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen!!!

 

[theyellowsash]

So who’s the pushback coming from? Anyone with a vested interest in getting anyone from any age vaccinated? Have you researched heart inflammation risks in young people? Not just the 1 article published?

what I’m debating is the “ benefits “ of getting young people vaccinated as opposed to the risk

common Pro jab behaviour is to argue against any report not suiting there own

so what’s your view on a suitable age to jab young people? 15,5,2, newborn?

ok, you want a debate?

in australia, there has been a total of 27,706 cases in people aged 10-19, with 2 deaths. A rate of 72 per million.

in america where pfizer has been given to children for longer, the highest recorded rates of side effects (myocarditis) which could (but wont necessarily) cause death is 37 per million in the 16-17 age group, and 21.5 per million in the 12-15 age group. At the time of the report they haven't had time to give the second dose of moderna to these age groups yet, but have recorded 0 cases of these side effects in these age groups on the first dose. They also state that these are barely above the background (ie normal) rates for myocarditis in people of this age group, so the effect of the vaccine appears to be negligible.

Both of these statistics come from health.gov.au

so in other words, catching covid is at least twice as likely to kill someone 12-19 (what is supposedly one of the safest age groups), than they are to naturally develop myocarditis, which the vaccines appear to have a negligible effect in increasing. Given covid 19 has a similar or larger infectious rate than chicken pox and its anticipated we might all catch it without vaccination, that is significant.

As for the youngest age group, if the experts say that its safe for newborns, i'll believe them. No-one has produced a shred of evidence that the vaccines arent safe for children, apart from quoting one or two deaths as is its a significant number.

 

[Drought Break]

Your not really debating.

You're flailing desperately.

In your opinion which counts for nothing

I guess all the deaths in the young people in Australia back you up. What we up to ? 1or 2 depending on how they classed the 15 yr old with meningitis

kids in hospital with covid, been clarified that most are in for social reasons as no one to look after them at home

The today show professor who is a big advocate of vaccination has openly declared that young people should not get it. What would he know, just a specialist in that field

Anyway after a big week of work it’s to good of a day to argue, debate, “flail” with you and the usual suspects who seem to dominate all these topics

 

[Forward Press]

ok, you want a debate?

in australia, there has been a total of 27,706 cases in people aged 10-19, with 2 deaths. A rate of 72 per million.

in america where pfizer has been given to children for longer, the highest recorded rates of side effects (myocarditis) which could (but wont necessarily) cause death is 37 per million in the 16-17 age group, and 21.5 per million in the 12-15 age group. At the time of the report they haven't had time to give the second dose of moderna to these age groups yet, but have recorded 0 cases of these side effects in these age groups on the first dose. They also state that these are barely above the background (ie normal) rates for myocarditis in people of this age group, so the effect of the vaccine appears to be negligible.

Both of these statistics come from health.gov.au

so in other words, catching covid is at least twice as likely to kill someone 12-19 (what is supposedly one of the safest age groups), than they are to naturally develop myocarditis, which the vaccines appear to have a negligible effect in increasing. Given covid 19 has a similar or larger infectious rate than chicken pox and its anticipated we might all catch it without vaccination, that is significant.

As for the youngest age group, if the experts say that its safe for newborns, i'll believe them. No-one has produced a shred of evidence that the vaccines arent safe for children, apart from quoting one or two deaths as is its a significant number.

Antivaxxers: "The death of a child from a vaccine is significant and warrants an immediate halting of the vaccine roll-out or rescinding of the vaccine mandate!"
Also antivaxxers: "Freedom from our despotic leaders is the most important and if children die from COVID because people choose not to vaccinate, then that's an inevitable consequence of living with the virus!"

 

[Gruffles]

Anyway after a big week of work it’s to good of a day to argue, debate, “flail” with you and the usual suspects who seem to dominate all these topics

Couple of things... it's a rubbish day in Melbourne! [emoji23]

Secondly... Why then continue to debate with the 'usual suspects' while ignoring the posts that provide some reasonable data to discuss?

 

[slashin_velvet]

On that logic. No approved drug is safe. A standard clinic trial and approval time line is between 3 to 5 years. Even at 5 years, it’s not really enough time to assess the “long term impacts”…….. unless you deem a lifetime to be 7 years!!! mRNA technology is decades old. The notion that COVID vaccines were started from scratch is silly. Corona viruses have been treated for many years. Covid is simply a new variation of a virus that was discovered many years ago and been treated for many many years. Just because it didn’t hit the western world, doesn’t mean it didn’t happen!!!

This pretty much nails it. Look at how well Taiwan managed the early stages of the pandemic until they got complacent and were hit with Delta.

I was in Taiwan when the virus started emerging just before Chinese New Year, and almost instantly hand sanitiser was sold out and everyone was mearing a mask - this was January 2020 when travel to and from China is near peak levels as people return to visit relatives in mainland China. We were crossing the road and an old man stopped us and told us to go and buy masks like everyone else. Initially we thought it was a bit of a storm in a teacup, but their society was hit hard by SARS in 2003, and they knew what it took to get out of that situation. Any returned travellers were asked to home quarantine, the first person caught out of quarantine was fined $10k which sent a message about how serious their govt took the virus. I returned to Australia in early Feb and was astounded by how indifferent we were to the risk relative to the Taiwanese experience. It wasnt a surprise to me 6-8 weeks later when everything was thrown into lockdown.

 

[Beerfish]

what that young boys getting vaccinated have a greater risk of heart inflamation then actually getting covid?

"non peer-reviewed study"
"many concerns raised about the study"

 

[kingswood71]

The today show professor who is a big advocate of vaccination has openly declared that young people should not get it. What would he know, just a specialist in that field

Do you mean Professor Peter Collignon?
If so, he isnt saying that at all...He is saying that we should wait and analyze the risk v benefits....
Which is what the TGA will do when they consider an extension into a variation of the provisional approval.

 

[Stocks_go_Up]

Why are you so obsessed with the issue of booster shots? Many vaccines don't last forever and require boosters, why should the covid vaccine be any different? Its not like the government are charging money for it, its free. If it was safe the first time then it's safe the 3rd time. What's the problem?

Tell me which other vaccines require 3 shots in 6 months followed by another shot every 6 months for a to be determined time period that is part of our national vaccine schedule that has no long term studies and uses a new method of delivery (MRNA). "If it was safe the first time then it's safe the 3rd time. What's the problem?" Clearly statistics is not your strong point. Every time you inject the 'vaccine' you are raising the risk of an adverse event and ****ing with your bodies immune system. We have no long term studies to determine what effects these drugs are doing to people. We KNOW they are producing adverse reactions in a small % of cases - some in young adults and children who would be more than likely completely fine IF they got covid. You should only compare the CHANCE of catching covid combined with then getting an adverse reaction vs the adverse reaction of the vaccine. You should not assume every single person is going to get covid. Especially if these awesome vaccines are actually doing what they are supposed to do (stop virus transmission).

 

[kingswood71]

Tell me which other vaccines require 3 shots in 6 months followed by another shot every 6 months

You know you dont have to have a booster right?
2 doses still offers excellent protection against bad outcomes...