Carlton player Liam Jones refusing vax - Update: Jones retires from AFL

[carnthedons]

Vaccines absolutely work to eradicate disease, provided a very high percentage (around 95% of the population - and that means children too) can be vaccinated.

Unfortunately we've had several problems with COVID-19. Vaccine hesitancy (the general rise of the anti-vax movement, right wing politicians in the US and elsewhere promoting vaccine skepticism), our inability to vaccinate children yet, and as a result the rise of variants.

So eradication probably isn't possible now, at least for the foreseeable future. But the more of us who are vaccinated, the easier it will be to live with this virus.

IMO, we all have/had a duty to society to get vaccinated. How much COVID-19 impacts our lives is purely determined on our collective response. This is truly a case where 'we're all in this together'. Like it or not. You want a relatively normal life for all of us? Get yourself vaccinated.

This is not as simple as 'I choose not to get vaccinated, so that's a personal choice that only affects me.' Unfortunately, it doesn't. It's not like choosing to not wear a bike helmet or a seat belt, or eat junk food, or go free climbing or BASE jumping.

Choosing not to get vaccinated is putting your thoughts and feelings ahead of your duty to everyone else in society. We get vaccinated, and wear masks, not really for ourselves, but for all of us. You getting vaccinated helps me. Me getting vaccinated helps you. Choosing not to is the very definition of selfishness.

Liam Jones seems like a decent person, but there's a lot of decent people who buy into anti-vax nonsense. But I really don't understand the attitude of 'good on him for sticking to his guns/holding to his convictions/'. Do we really admire selfishness and toxic individualism as a character trait?

Nailed it. It’s less like not wearing a seatbelt and more like drink driving.

I 100% will defend someone’s right to choose but given the choice here quite literally endangers the entire community there needs to be consequences. Every choice has consequences, it seems the position of those not getting vaccinated is they want choice without consequence, that’s not freedom, that’s power.

I can’t understand the mindset of “my right to choose is more important than everyone else’s right to live” but that genuinely seems to be the point many have arrived at. It’s unethical, immoral and not what anyone should want for society.

 

[Del165198]

No ones scared, we just want to punish that actively obstruct societal progression and put others at risk. If it's a fringe player they'll delist, but be funny if it was Sam Walsh. Not that it seems likely, he seems like a good kid.

Is casboult still on the list?

Looks like I was right about big Levi

 

[DERO]

NSW has the same legislation as what Dan Andrews is proposing in terms of how a emergency declaration is done.
Likewise what is required regarding vaccine mandates for workers in some areas.

Sorry but that is incorrect.

health, education, transport, aged-care, airports only in NSW and much less restrictions on those who are not fully vaccinated i.e they can go to pub, work on a construction site etc (as far as I know)

You’ll find the NSW system also much lower fines for non-compliance (like half).

The initial legislation changes proposed in Victoria whilst offering more transparency also gave the government too much unchecked power. Looks like the powers will be watered down/ amended and rightly so.

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

Sure, so am I. But that is the way of the world now, wishing for the good old days isn't going to make anything better.

I think this is the major factor in all the animosity at the moment - both sides of the debate are kidding themselves that there's a way to get back to normal.

It's gone.

99% Vax rates won't bring it back. And ending lockdowns and ending Vax mandates won't either.

What we knew, is gone.

Once you accept that, getting a booster shot doesn't seem so abhorrent, and sitting next to an unvax'd person at the footy doesn't either.


I find the people most outraged on either side of this debate, are the ones still in mourning for life before COVID came.

 

[Gruffles]

I see you're back BlueE! Couple of things:

Big problem in mandating a vaccine that doesn't stop infection...

Can you point me to which of our current vaccines stop infection?

Also:

Merck patent on IVM expired, so they make nothing from it's use. This is why other manufacturers are allowed to produce it and can make it cheaply.

Interestly, they pre sold Molnupirvir for billions to many countries, then in a magnanimous gesture gave the formula for third world countries to produce cheaply for their use. However, India did it's own trials on the drug which they had to halt for safety reasons.

I'm not sure this is entirely true, but correct me if I'm wrong. Merck hasn't "given the formula to third world countries", but rather gone into licencing deals with companies to manufacture generic molnupiravir to be sold at lower prices to low/middle income countries. I have no problem at all with this as it is making an effort to supply medication to all rather than only a few.

I also can't find any information showing that an India trial had been halted for "safety reasons", but rather that two companies halted their trial on covid patients with moderate symptoms due to the drug not showing significant efficacy in these cases, but they would continue the trial on patients with mild symptoms as it was showing successful outcomes there. Again, if I've missed the information you've seen then please point me to it.

Still waiting for you to show me where Merck gave their formula away or that Indian trials on the drug halted for "safety reasons" and not the reason I found above.

I'm starting to think that you haven't just missed my posts but actually can't provide any proof of these questions. Would that mean that you're prone to telling mistruths?

 

[Gruffles]

I think this is the major factor in all the animosity at the moment - both sides of the debate are kidding themselves that there's a way to get back to normal.
It's gone.
99% Vax rates won't bring it back. And ending lockdowns and ending Vax mandates won't either.
What we knew, is gone.
Once you accept that, getting a booster shot doesn't seem so abhorrent, and sitting next to an unvax'd person at the footy doesn't either.
I find the people most outraged on either side of this debate, are the ones still in mourning for life before COVID came.

You don't see a point in the future where vaccination numbers are high enough and a viable and effective treatment option is available meaning that vaccination mandates are no longer required? Where covid outbreaks will be similar to flu outbreaks in that they are endemic, and we're no longer in a pandemic? At this point, vaccination against covid would be completely up to the person, much like the seasonal flu vaccine.

I see this as a very real possibility (the most probably from my point of view).

 

[Glenn_]

Sorry but that is incorrect.

health, education, transport, aged-care, airports only in NSW and much less restrictions on those who are not fully vaccinated i.e they can go to pub, work on a construction site etc (as far as I know)

You’ll find the NSW system also much lower fines for non-compliance (like half).

The initial legislation changes proposed in Victoria whilst offering more transparency also gave the government too much unchecked power. Looks like the powers will be watered down/ amended and rightly so.

With the exception of the essential retail/medical , anything open to the public staff need to be fully vaccinated (or medically exempt)
Customers need to be fully vaccinated for the pub,cafes,museums,etc
The legislation in terms of fines for non-compliance appears to be watered down in the latest amendments , not that I expect that will appease the protesters.

 

[slashin_velvet]

im willing to give him the benefit of the doubt that he's just a trumpian lunatic/racist, but he will get the vaccine.

but if he does keep rejecting it even when available then yes, hes an antivax moron who deserves all the derision that will come with it.

I thought his wife was more like a Byron Hippy, Pete Evans style anti-vaxxer than a Trump supporter. I'm willing to bet that his "waiting" excuse is just a way to kick the can down the road until he is required to make a decision.

 

[slashin_velvet]

Sorry but that is incorrect.

health, education, transport, aged-care, airports only in NSW and much less restrictions on those who are not fully vaccinated i.e they can go to pub, work on a construction site etc (as far as I know)

You’ll find the NSW system also much lower fines for non-compliance (like half).

The initial legislation changes proposed in Victoria whilst offering more transparency also gave the government too much unchecked power. Looks like the powers will be watered down/ amended and rightly so.

None of what you said contradicts what the original poster said. My understanding is that the "powers" in terms of declaring a health emergency etc is aligned with NSW in this latest bill. The differences you allude to are merely differences in utilisation of those same powers. Perrotet wanted to open NSW up back in July when cases were surging, and they have had an exceptional takeup of vaccines in the first place.

I can understand people protesting the bill, but the people rolling around with gallows/nooses can get in the bin.

 

[Glenn_]

Things that make you go hmm...

 

[kingswood71]

You don't see a point in the future where vaccination numbers are high enough and a viable and effective treatment option is available meaning that vaccination mandates are no longer required? Where covid outbreaks will be similar to flu outbreaks in that they are endemic, and we're no longer in a pandemic? At this point, vaccination against covid would be completely up to the person, much like the seasonal flu vaccine.

I see this as a very real possibility (the most probably from my point of view).

Provided that we dont see a much worse variant, I think that eventually we would have a herd immunity of sorts, given vaccination/natural immunity and vaccination immunity augmented by asymptomatic/mild infection. When that happens, I agree that the covid vaccines would become and annual thing like a flu shot.

 

[Glenn_]

Provided that we dont see a much worse variant, I think that eventually we would have a herd immunity of sorts, given vaccination/natural immunity and vaccination immunity augmented by asymptomatic/mild infection. When that happens, I agree that the covid vaccines would become and annual thing like a flu shot.

Seeing that in NSW , with a significant drop off in both case numbers , but now more importantly hospitalisations/ICU numbers.
That trend should continue as the boosters shots are rolled out.

 

[Gruffles]

Provided that we dont see a much worse variant

Let's just hope that genetic mutation roulette wheel never lands on 00

Side thought... Just imagine how big that wheel would be! Getting that thing spinning would be a pain in the ass!

 

[kingswood71]

I'm starting to think that you haven't just missed my posts but actually can't provide any proof of these questions. Would that mean that you're prone to telling mistruths?

I admire your persistence

 

[slashin_velvet]

Let's just hope that genetic mutation roulette wheel never lands on 00

Side thought... Just imagine how big that wheel would be! Getting that thing spinning would be a pain in the ass!

Problem is its already spinning pretty quickly

 

[Lavender Bushranger]

You don't see a point in the future where vaccination numbers are high enough and a viable and effective treatment option is available meaning that vaccination mandates are no longer required? Where covid outbreaks will be similar to flu outbreaks in that they are endemic, and we're no longer in a pandemic? At this point, vaccination against covid would be completely up to the person, much like the seasonal flu vaccine.

I see this as a very real possibility (the most probably from my point of view).

Yes, until it mutates.

And even if it doesn't, booster Vax will be part of life for most. Treatment pills will part of life for pretty much everyone.

There will be sickies happening all the time, cause the common cold and the flu will be back too. Businesses will find it incredibly hard to function in winter with half their staff home sick on a course of Merck for two weeks.

Travel will be different.

Life has been different since the Spanish Flu happened. For those of us that came afterwards, we know no different.


We'll adapt, but as long as COVID is here, and there is no indication it will be eradicated, we have to live with it.

And that simply means our lives have to adjust.


The reason the debate is so heated, is because people seem to be arguing as to the best way to get back to how things were. That's why some people say 'the Vax doesn't work' - because other countries are still getting cases and haven't ended the pandemic even though they're highly vax'd.

And the flip side is that other people think that the Vax will kill COVID and life will be back to how it was.

Neither are true.

The debate needs to be about how to move forward, with COVID as part of our lives. The sting comes out of the argument a bit when that's what is being discussed.

People hold dear their way of life. Once they accept that it's gone, the emotion is reduced and the debate is more logical.

 

[faible]

Would that mean that you're prone to telling mistruths?

I could have told you this from the outset to be fair.

He's been doing the exact same posting shtick on the Conspiracy and SRP threads for months now. Long winded posts that appear to have some form of support, yet consistently fall apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny. Never to be rectified, just moved on to the next post that has the exact same format and failings.

 

[Gruffles]

Yes, until it mutates. And even if it doesn't, booster Vax will be part of life for most. Treatment pills will part of life for pretty much everyone.
There will be sickies happening all the time, cause the common cold and the flu will be back too. Businesses will find it incredibly hard to function in winter with half their staff home sick on a course of Merck for two weeks.
Travel will be different.

Life has been different since the Spanish Flu happened. For those of us that came afterwards, we know no different.
We'll adapt, but as long as COVID is here, and there is no indication it will be eradicated, we have to live with it.
And that simply means our lives have to adjust.

The reason the debate is so heated, is because people seem to be arguing as to the best way to get back to how things were. That's why some people say 'the Vax doesn't work' - because other countries are still getting cases and haven't ended the pandemic even though they're highly vax'd.
And the flip side is that other people think that the Vax will kill COVID and life will be back to how it was.
Neither are true.

The debate needs to be about how to move forward, with COVID as part of our lives. The sting comes out of the argument a bit when that's what is being discussed.
People hold dear their way of life. Once they accept that it's gone, the emotion is reduced and the debate is more logical.

Oh I absolutely agree with everything you are saying here (although maybe a better treatment will be developed that doesn't require a 2 week course, and possible advancements in the vaccines, who knows?).

I guess I just envisage what will be our new normal as not really that far away from what our old normal was. They'll definitely be different, but different enough to make me concerned for the future... not for me.

EDIT - Of course, a mutation could totally shift my outlook here. But I'll wait until that potentially happens rather than live in fear of it potentially happening.

 

[Whiskers]

There is no way a footballer truly cares about long term health.
I’m not sure if Jones has used long term health as a reason to not get it but for any footballer who does is surely full of rot.
I hear he has done his own research. Curious if he has researched the effects of concussion?

 

[phantom13]

There is no way a footballer truly cares about long term health.
I’m not sure if Jones has used long term health as a reason to not get it but for any footballer who does is surely full of rot.
I hear he has done his own research. Curious if he has researched the effects of concussion?

There is a degree of false equivalence in this. You get enjoyment and health benefits from playing football (some might argue those outweigh the risks and dangers) but then the comparison to a vaccine that might save your life but would certainly have saved your career youd think those benefits would outweigh the almost non existent risks.

Long story short, Jones is a moron

 

[Gruffles]

I admire your persistence

I wish I had this level of persistence when I was in Year 12. I could've been anything!

On a serious note, I think it's important that we don't let these sort of incidences just dissolve into the ether of the thread. Someone new to the thread should be able to see that some posters have a history of telling a bunch of half-truths (sometimes non-truths) in a hope that it makes one whole truth.

This is not how truth work.

 

[Gruffles]

I could have told you this from the outset to be fair.

He's been doing the exact same posting shtick on the Conspiracy and SRP threads for months now. Long winded posts that appear to have some form of support, yet consistently fall apart under the slightest bit of scrutiny. Never to be rectified, just moved on to the next post that has the exact same format and failings.

Maybe I told my own mis-truth when I said "I'm starting to think...."

 

[faible]

Maybe I told my own mis-truth when I said "I'm starting to think...."

 

[Trav 20]

Vaccines absolutely work to eradicate disease, provided a very high percentage (around 95% of the population - and that means children too) can be vaccinated.

Mass vaccination in the middle of a pandemic is not supported by many experts. It's especially so with imperfect or ''leaky'' vaccines that don't prevent infection, replication or transmission.

Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens

''Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts.''

Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens

A study using Marek's disease virus in poultry shows that by reducing natural selection against highly virulent strains, imperfect vaccination enables the spread of viral strains that would otherwise be too lethal to persist.

journals.plos.org

Leaky vaccines promote the transmission of more virulent virus

''The results suggest that disease interventions that aim to prevent disease symptoms without preventing transmission can have dangerous evolutionary consequences and need to be considered in cases with imperfect vaccines. The findings were published this month in PLoS Biology and can be accessed here. The video press release is also available here.''

Center for Infectious Disease Dynamics - The Huck Institutes (en-US)

CIDD embraces all scales and components of infectious disease biology. Our interdisciplinary approach, coupled with a dynamic viewpoint, provides insight into how to prevent or reduce infections.

epidemics.psu.edu

 

[Glenn_]

Mass vaccination in the middle of a pandemic is not supported by many experts. It's especially so with imperfect or ''leaky'' vaccines that don't prevent infection, replication or transmission.

Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens

''Our data show that anti-disease vaccines that do not prevent transmission can create conditions that promote the emergence of pathogen strains that cause more severe disease in unvaccinated hosts.''

Imperfect Vaccination Can Enhance the Transmission of Highly Virulent Pathogens

A study using Marek's disease virus in poultry shows that by reducing natural selection against highly virulent strains, imperfect vaccination enables the spread of viral strains that would otherwise be too lethal to persist.

journals.plos.org

Leaky vaccines promote the transmission of more virulent virus

''The results suggest that disease interventions that aim to prevent disease symptoms without preventing transmission can have dangerous evolutionary consequences and need to be considered in cases with imperfect vaccines. The findings were published this month in PLoS Biology and can be accessed here. The video press release is also available here.''

Center for Infectious Disease Dynamics - The Huck Institutes (en-US)

CIDD embraces all scales and components of infectious disease biology. Our interdisciplinary approach, coupled with a dynamic viewpoint, provides insight into how to prevent or reduce infections.

epidemics.psu.edu

What Vaccine to any virus prevents transmission?
What it will prevent is a more serious outcome if you do contract the virus.