Hot Topic CARLTON SUPPORTERS ONLY - Carlton fires Captain Carlton

[Gethelred]

Carlton caught up in fresh storm over club mascot

A statement has been issued and the person at the centre of the incident has been sacked.

7news.com.au

This thread is for the discussion of the sacking of a club mascot after refusing to participate in a bar mitzvah which was allegedly sending money back to the IDF.

By taking this position and labelling the act racist, the club has taken a position on the Israel-Palestine conflict.

This thread concerns a discussion of the following:

• whether it is acceptable for the club to fire someone for taking a political stance.
• whether it is a good idea for the club to have taken a public position on this issue.

This thread is not a thread in which you should partake in expressing your political beliefs concerning the conflict, nor is it somewhere in which forum rules do not apply.

Should you seek to participate in conversation related to the war, you can do so here:

Mid East - Israel declare war after Hamas attack IV - Probable Case of Genocide

Continued from Part III https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/israel-declare-war-after-hamas-attack-iii.1381570/ Original Post, October 7, 2023: Israel declares state of war In response to the attacks, which appear to have caught the Israel Defence Forces (IDF) by surprise, Israel has...

www.bigfooty.com

There's also a thread on the SRP for a more robust discussion than can be permitted here:

Moved Thread - Blues mascot 'Captain Carlton' sacked after walking out of Bar Mitzvah and comments about Zionists.

Blues off to a flyer for the off season :D But surely one can criticise the actions of the IDF without being 'anti semitic' ‘Not doing this for f---ing Zios’: Captain Carlton mascot storms out of Bar Mitzvah celebration A man working as a mascot for the Carlton Football Club has stunned...

www.bigfooty.com

If you wish to participate in this thread, do so knowing that this will not be allowed to escalate beyond a point.

Thanks all!

 

[El Topo]

They should not generally be conflated. But they can be.

Some anti-zionism is I believe in a two-state solution, some is Israel should be a secular state, some is Israel shouldn't exist.

None of these options are antisemitic?

 

[morningbrown]

Pretty misleading OP.

Guy made a racist comment, swore at a kids event and walked out of the event he had been hired for.

Walking out is the political stance, and IMO not fireable.

Making a racist comment and swearing? That's too far.

Cpt Carlton needs to do better, so does the OP.

Zionism isn't a race. Try again.

 

[Magruder]

Not sure what this moron was expecting to see out of a Torquay Hotel window, the Sydney Opera House, the Hanging Gardens of Babylon, Herds of Wildebeest majestically sweeping across the veldt.

He was entertaining at a Bar Mitzvah - hello.

Probably wasn't expecting proceeds to be donated to a state entity actively engaged in indiscriminate extra-judicial killings as well as the denial of human rights to a specific identified group.

The actions of the state of Israel have nothing to do with any mitzvot, nor with inherent jewishness. They are simply put... morally reprehensible and amongst the worst crimes of the 21st century.

But sure, let's Basil Fawlty as a key part of the argument.

 

[Magruder]

They should not generally be conflated. But they can be.

Some anti-zionism is I believe in a two-state solution, some is Israel should be a secular state, some is Israel shouldn't exist.

Zionism isn't a race. Try again.

I have an issue with the term anti-semite as a catch-all term for anti-jewish as it ignores all other semites.
And has the effect (in this and other instances) of conflating the state of Israel and the Israeli government with jewishness.

So I guess that makes me anti-zionist, but I won't accept the term anti-semite

 

[SkyhorseTamer]

This is not a complex situation at all.

He was well within his rights to walk out after he found out what the situation was. Had he done just that, there is zero chance the club would have sacked him.

But to add the words that he allegedly did while representing the Club...not on at all. Has absolutely nothing to do with the decision to leave the function.

****ing. Exactly right.

 

[Gethelred]

Pretty misleading OP.

Guy made a racist comment, swore at a kids event and walked out of the event he had been hired for.

Walking out is the political stance, and IMO not fireable.

Making a racist comment and swearing? That's too far.

Cpt Carlton needs to do better, so does the OP.

... of all the things to take issue with here, I'm the problem?

Great. ****ing sparkling.

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

I don't know: I think it's pretty simple.
He negatively affected the reputation of his employer whilst engaged as a representative of the club in an official capacity. He did it intentionally: it wasn't an accident.

He knew it was a bah mitzvah. He had his chance to refuse privately to the club in advance.
If he didn't want to perform his job description of waving and doing handstands in a costume at the club's request, then he objects to his employer, and they either negotiate some sort of deal with him, get someone else to do it, or refuse the gig.
If they force him anyway, that's for HR or arbitration, to decide whether the club's insistence was valid in view of some deep-seated political beliefs, etc..

Once he agreed to go, he needed to behave like an adult. If you want to have a rant at someone who doesn't think like you do (but is not doing or promoting anything illegal), do that on your own time.

Too many people thinking that everyone else has to operate with their personal approval, and they're entitled to give everyone else a piece of their mind.

 

[Stamos]

I don't know: I think it's pretty simple.
He negatively affected the reputation of his employer whilst engaged as a representative of the club in an official capacity. He did it intentionally: it wasn't an accident.

He knew it was a bah mitzvah. He had his chance to refuse privately to the club in advance.
If he didn't want to perform his job description of waving and doing handstands in a costume at the club's request, then he objects to his employer, and they either negotiate some sort of deal with him, get someone else to do it, or refuse the gig.
If they force him anyway, that's for HR or arbitration, to decide whether the club's insistence was valid in view of some deep-seated political beliefs, etc..

Once he agreed to go, he needed to behave like an adult. If you want to have a rant at someone who doesn't think like you do (but is not doing or promoting anything illegal), do that on your own time.

Too many people thinking that everyone else has to operate with their personal approval, and they're entitled to give everyone else a piece of their mind.

Surely you can see that there is a world of difference between a bah mitzvah, and and a function raising money to Israeli soldiers?

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

Not sure how this can be described as anti-Semitism when the person was willing to perform at a Bar Mitzvah. Only withdrew after learning funds were going to support IDF soldiers.

It's the way of the world, unfortunately.
If you're a nut-hugging fanatic one way, the other side gets to tee off on you.
If you have a more nuanced view that lies somewhere between the koolaid-chugging, nut-hugging extremes, you're fair game for everyone.

 

[Gethelred]

As opposed to another state entity actively engaging in indiscriminate extra-judicial killings.

Which would be a worthwhile point to make if Captain Carlton was asked to support a party sending money to Hamas. But that's not what happened, is it?

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

Surely you can see that there is a world of difference between a bah mitzvah, and and a function raising money to Israeli soldiers?

It's a kid's party, not a fundraising event.
And deciding to donate some of your own personal money to help injured soldiers is not the same as a buying bombs for Netanyahu.
More BS rhetoric and strawmen to remove nuance or reasoning from people's thinking.

And if Captain Carlton in his official capacity has a political protest to make, then that's an employment issue.

 

[Stamos]

More BS rhetoric and strawmen to remove nuance or reasoning from people's thinking.

Bad take

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

Which would be a worthwhile point if Captain Carlton was asked to support a party sending money to Hamas. But that's not what happened, is it?

Does this matter? Do all your refusing and chest beating in private, with your employer.
Once a decision has been made, for better or for worse, then do your job.

What did he think was going to happen?
Did he think that swearing at kids in their own home about the evils and outrage was going to convince anyone of anything?

 

[GoBlues!]

Not sure how this can be described as anti-Semitism when the person was willing to perform at a Bar Mitzvah. Only withdrew after learning funds were going to support IDF soldiers.

I must admit I thought a Bar Mitzvah was a ceremony for Jewish boys to mark their transition into religious adulthood, and responsibility to uphold Jewish commandments.

Nothing against raising funds for a cause you believe in, but given the importance and religious significance of a Bar Mitzvah, raising funds for the IDF does seem a little unusual or unexpected.

Walking out the way CC did was disgraceful and could have been done better.

I actually see fault on both sides - non disclosure that the purpose of the Bar Mitzvah was for more than just a religious ceremony and the way CC handled it when he realised it.

 

[azlou]

They should not generally be conflated. But they can be.

Some anti-zionism is I believe in a two-state solution, some is Israel should be a secular state, some is Israel shouldn't exist.

Most on the left use Zio as in colonial state that shouldn’t exist.
Most Jews believe in right of Israel to exist so most Jews are Zionist.
It becomes a blanket term for people to legitimize there anti semitism.

 

[Gethelred]

Does this matter? Do all your refusing and chest beating in private, with your employer.

It pretty clearly does.

Once a decision has been made, for better or for worse, then do your job.

What did he think was going to happen?
Did he think that swearing at kids in their own home about the evils and outrage was going to convince anyone of anything?

Do we know if he did that?

 

[katmanblue]

Interesting that Claude refused to write an draft email to the club and Perplexity had no problem with it.

 

[TwiggleyFanClub]

Bad take

Why?

One side gets its soldiers to shoot and bomb people.
The other side gets "civilians" (they consider themselves to be soldiers, I'm sure) to also shoot and bomb people.

Both sides have done some pretty sht things in the name of what they consider right. I don't have to agree with that.
Plenty of innocent lives have been ruined on both sides over the years. I am allowed to think that's tragedy for all involved.

Why do I have to just blindly accept that 1 side is completely "good" and the other side is completely "evil"?

 

[Gethelred]

Why?

One side gets its soldiers to shoot and bomb people.
The other side gets "civilians" (they consider themselves to be soldiers, I'm sure) to also shoot and bomb people.

Both sides have done some pretty sht things in the name of what they consider right. I don't have to agree with that.
Plenty of innocent lives have been ruined on both sides over the years. I am allowed to think that's tragedy for all involved.

Why do I have to just blindly accept that 1 side is completely "good" and the other side is completely "evil"?

Has anyone insisted that you do that?

You seem to be arguing against a position that no-one has made.

 

[ctwenty1]

Has anyone insisted that you do that?

You seem to be arguing against a position that no-one has made.

Being described as dispecable and silly, which I appreciate are mild insults, hardly engender a forum open to opposing views

So Twig's statement within that context is somewhat understandable

 

[teagueyubeauty]

Why?

One side gets its soldiers to shoot and bomb people.
The other side gets "civilians" (they consider themselves to be soldiers, I'm sure) to also shoot and bomb people.

Both sides have done some pretty sht things in the name of what they consider right. I don't have to agree with that.
Plenty of innocent lives have been ruined on both sides over the years. I am allowed to think that's tragedy for all involved.

Why do I have to just blindly accept that 1 side is completely "good" and the other side is completely "evil"?

The only evil is religion of ALL persuasions all throughout the history of mankind, it completely messes with everyone’s moral compass

Being atheist myself, only thing I get angry at is the performance of the sporting teams I follow and incompetent people at work…it’s a much better place to be

 

[mickelboy182]

Being described as dispecable and silly, which I appreciate are mild insults, hardly engender a forum open to opposing views

So Twig's statement within that context is somewhat understandable

I'm sure there's been some deleted posts, but all I've seen is the guy you're giving a defense for calling others nuthuggers...

 

[Stamos]

Why?

One side gets its soldiers to shoot and bomb people.
The other side gets "civilians" (they consider themselves to be soldiers, I'm sure) to also shoot and bomb people.

Both sides have done some pretty sht things in the name of what they consider right. I don't have to agree with that.
Plenty of innocent lives have been ruined on both sides over the years. I am allowed to think that's tragedy for all involved.

Why do I have to just blindly accept that 1 side is completely "good" and the other side is completely "evil"?

The civilians are good, or at least, shouldn't be killed or injured (or starved or have their homes destroyed etc. etc.).

The soldiers and the "civilians" not so much.

 

[ctwenty1]

I'm sure there's been some deleted posts, but all I've seen is the guy you're giving a defense for calling others nuthuggers...

Yeah - a few directed at me were deleted

but all good - ill survive

 

[katmanblue]

As with all situations, two things can be true at the same time.

Yes, he is well within his rights to take a stand against a genocide and I applaud him for doing so.

But you also can't behave in the manner described while representing your employer and expect zero disciplinary action.

I sincerely hope that the club has taken this action due to his behaviour, rather than the political belief he holds.

Why is the club putting him that position in the first place?