Politics Centrelink

[DaRick]

That could be a factor. I think it's more likely that there's a demographic that is more likely to smoke and also more likely to be unemployed.

A study found that smokers were younger, less educated and more likely to be unstably housed, in poorer health and to possess a criminal record than non-smokers. But even when you allow for those social factors non-smokers were 30% more likely to be employed after 12 months than smokers, and for those who found work within the year, non-smokers earned about $5 an hour more.

There was some confirmation of what eddiesmith said.

When the smokers were asked about their spending priorities tobacco was placed above outgoings including transport funds, mobile phone and grooming care - such as getting a haircut.​

I reckon there's some truth in both interpretations.

In the situation you describe, what you probably see are smokers who smoke even more after becoming unemployed, partially because of stress and partially because they have more time on their hands ("the devil provides work for idle hands to do").

 

[Frank Bunn]

I reckon there's some truth in both interpretations.

In the situation you describe, what you probably see are smokers who smoke even more after becoming unemployed, partially because of stress and partially because they have more time on their hands ("the devil provides work for idle hands to do").

Some people get stressed by being unemployed, others seem to enjoy it. As you say, there is definitely more time on their hands. Eg someone who is working might have shifts, meetings or public transport journeys that would limit their smoking.

Only speculating, but I can't really see someone losing their job and starting smoking because they are stressed. It's more about the demographic that are more likely to be unemployed and also more likely to smoke - then maybe smoke more if they don't have a job. At $48 a pack it's a huge waste of money for those on a limited budget.

From the report I referenced, unemployed people were more likely to use cannabis than employed - 19.8% compared to 11.6% among all Australians. People who identified as gay, lesbian or bisexual were the highest users - 31%. However, employed people were more likely to drink alcohol over current risk guidelines than unemployed. It again points to demographics.

 

[Power Raid]

It's an addiction, and it feeds on stress. It's a legal drug and it always will be because governments are addicted to the tax it brings in.

it's piss weak that we don't ask people to swipe their medicare card when buying cigarettes

people should be free to smoke (subject to third party inhalation) but they shouldn't be covered for public health relating to disease related to smoking

 

[Gough]

it's piss weak that we don't ask people to swipe their medicare card when buying cigarettes

people should be free to smoke (subject to third party inhalation) but they shouldn't be covered for public health relating to disease related to smoking

I blow my second hand smoke into the face of people like you just for shit and giggles.

 

[Kram]

When you are a 60kg weakling with the fitness level of your average 70 year old I bet you wouldn't say boo to anyone in person.

 

[Power Raid]

I blow my second hand smoke into the face of people like you just for sh*t and giggles.

well that says something about who you are as an individual

I wish you well and hopefully you find peace in your life one day

 

[twotooto]

it's piss weak that we don't ask people to swipe their medicare card when buying cigarettes

people should be free to smoke (subject to third party inhalation) but they shouldn't be covered for public health relating to disease related to smoking

I see where you're coming from however, it is legal to smoke and it also gets taxed out the arse.

IMO, it would be a display of utter grubbery giving something the ok, then taxing it heavily and then turning around and saying "nah, you're not covered but if you want to keep smoking we'll still happily continue to excise the living bejesus out of you".

On top of that, it's just a huge can of worms and sets some pretty unsavoury precendents.

 

[Power Raid]

I see where you're coming from however, it is legal to smoke and it also gets taxed out the arse.

IMO, it would be a display of utter grubbery giving something the ok, then taxing it heavily and then turning around and saying "nah, you're not covered but if you want to keep smoking we'll still happily continue to excise the living bejesus out of you".

On top of that, it's just a huge can of worms and sets some pretty unsavoury precendents.

fair point

I'm free choice but responsibility. Get rid of the excessive tax and swipe medicare cards.

 

[twotooto]

fair point

I'm free choice but responsibility. Get rid of the excessive tax and swipe medicare cards.

Ok. So if we're gonna make people swipe Medicare cards when buying darts on the basis of smoking is a bad health choice(and it absolutely is, no arguments there) and that it should preclude them for public health, then why not just make people swipe for every bad health choice? Junk/unhealthy food? Alcohol? The other 450,000 potentially bad health choices? See what I mean? It's just a huge rabbit hole.

EDIT - The exorbitant tax on cigs is probably the best deterrent anyway.

 

[Power Raid]

Ok. So if we're gonna make people swipe Medicare cards when buying darts on the basis of smoking is a bad health choice(and it absolutely is, no arguments there) and that it should preclude them for public health, then why not just make people swipe for every bad health choice? Junk/unhealthy food? Alcohol? The other 450,000 potentially bad health choices? See what I mean? It's just a huge rabbit hole.

EDIT - The irony is, the exorbitant tax on cigs is probably the best deterrent anyway.

I'm happy with swiping for each of these

Let's not forget the cost of poor health is not just medicare but all of the economy under situations like covid (given it statistically impacts those with underlying health issue and many of these are lifestyle related). The beauty about swiping, is we have accurate data to which science can be applied and the allocation of resources.

 

[Number37]

I'm happy with swiping for each of these

Let's not forget the cost of poor health is not just medicare but all of the economy under situations like covid (given it statistically impacts those with underlying health issue and many of these are lifestyle related). The beauty about swiping, is we have accurate data to which science can be applied and the allocation of resources.

Yeah, that sounds exactly like "free choice".

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Ok. So if we're gonna make people swipe Medicare cards when buying darts on the basis of smoking is a bad health choice(and it absolutely is, no arguments there) and that it should preclude them for public health, then why not just make people swipe for every bad health choice? Junk/unhealthy food? Alcohol? The other 450,000 potentially bad health choices? See what I mean? It's just a huge rabbit hole.

EDIT - The exorbitant tax on cigs is probably the best deterrent anyway.

The alternative is , rather than put all the welfare into your bank account, put a portion into your bank account, but the main amount into a credit card that is set up to only work on certain items.
IE. A card that works in most supermarkets but won't cover booze, cigarettes, etc. It would suck for those involved, but might be good for their kids.

 

[Over The Post]

Oh har har har. While we're at it, let's give a Nationals bigwig's company $12000 per card per year to supervise the spending of $14300 in benefits.

 

[Power Raid]

Yeah, that sounds exactly like "free choice".

what part isn't free choice AND responsibility?

 

[Frank Bunn]

EDIT - The exorbitant tax on cigs is probably the best deterrent anyway.

I would like to see some evidence of that. It could be that despite price rises, low income smokers continue to prioritise buying smokes over other spend, including essentials.

 

[Over The Post]

... because it's an addiction

heroin addicts prioritise spending on heroin
gambling addicts prioritise spending on gambling
nicotine addicts prioritise spending on nicotine

 

[Power Raid]

Ok. So if we're gonna make people swipe Medicare cards when buying darts on the basis of smoking is a bad health choice(and it absolutely is, no arguments there) and that it should preclude them for public health, then why not just make people swipe for every bad health choice? Junk/unhealthy food? Alcohol? The other 450,000 potentially bad health choices? See what I mean? It's just a huge rabbit hole.

EDIT - The exorbitant tax on cigs is probably the best deterrent anyway.

the world shits itself over corona but take a look at the numbers:


abortions - 32,171,251
cigarettes - 3,779,182
alcohol - 1,890,785
aids - 1,270,852
covid - 1,029,011
suicide - 810,678
flu - 369,513
giving birth - 233,666


worth noting death by decisions far outway covid. Education is important but so to is gathering data.

Worldometer - real time world statistics

Live world statistics on population, government and economics, society and media, environment, food, water, energy and health. Interesting statistics with world population clock, forest loss this year, carbon dioxide co2 emission, world hunger data, energy consumed, and a lot more

www.worldometers.info

 

[SaintsSeptember]

the world shits itself over corona but take a look at the numbers:


abortions - 32,171,251
cigarettes - 3,779,182
alcohol - 1,890,785
aids - 1,270,852
covid - 1,029,011
suicide - 810,678
flu - 369,513
giving birth - 233,666


worth noting death by decisions far outway covid. Education is important but so to is gathering data.

Worldometer - real time world statistics

Live world statistics on population, government and economics, society and media, environment, food, water, energy and health. Interesting statistics with world population clock, forest loss this year, carbon dioxide co2 emission, world hunger data, energy consumed, and a lot more

www.worldometers.info

Ha i just flushed the toilet. But i didn't tell those bastards.

 

[twotooto]

The alternative is , rather than put all the welfare into your bank account, put a portion into your bank account, but the main amount into a credit card that is set up to only work on certain items.
IE. A card that works in most supermarkets but won't cover booze, cigarettes, etc. It would suck for those involved, but might be good for their kids.

Understand your reasoning but do you really think someone who prioritises their own addiction/s over the health and wellbeing of their children is going to change their ways if we put a muzzle on what they spend their welfare on? Seriously??

I would like to see some evidence of that. It could be that despite price rises, low income smokers continue to prioritise buying smokes over other spend, including essentials.

I said 'probably'. Though, granted, there would no doubt be low income people who still prioritise spending on cigs over other essentials.

----

Bottom line is I - like pretty much nearly everyone else - am opposed to the idea of someone else telling me what I can and can't spend my coin on. Therefore, I am going to extend the same curtesy to everyone else - whether they are on welfare or not.

Whether or not I think it's stupid buying smokes when you've got limited coin(and it absolutely is) is not relevant because what they - and vice versa - spend their money on is none of my business.

I find the idea that we need to moderate what people spend their money on as being extremely grubby and frankly, shithouse. As I said above, it's a big can of worms and it sets up some really ugly precedents.

 

[Gethelred]

You have three choices: freedom, the money is theirs and you have to take the risk some will use it in the 'wrong' way; paternalism, you restrict their freedoms and give them what they need instead of what they want; individualism, the money is not theirs, if they will not use it appropriately they don't deserve to have support, **** em.

You can have blends of any of these, but at some point you've got to choose which direction you're going. Power Raid's thing could work, but it's leaning on their freedom too much for me, and I do not like the precedent set by allowing the government to decide the conduct/purchase power of individuals from both an egalitarian and an economic mindset.

 

[Number37]

what part isn't free choice AND responsibility?

All of it.

 

[Ghost Patrol]

I would like to see some evidence of that. It could be that despite price rises, low income smokers continue to prioritise buying smokes over other spend, including essentials.

Essentials.... maybe that's why tobacconists were allowed to stay open.

I'd much prefer cigarette access be tied to debt level, not welfare status.

 

[Bombermania]

People that cannot manage their own money can already be placed under financial administration.

Most unemployed people can manage their own money.

 

[Over The Post]

Most unemployed people can manage their own money.

Precisely. How else can you meet the rent, power etc?

 

[Power Raid]

You have three choices: freedom, the money is theirs and you have to take the risk some will use it in the 'wrong' way; paternalism, you restrict their freedoms and give them what they need instead of what they want; individualism, the money is not theirs, if they will not use it appropriately they don't deserve to have support, fu** em.

You can have blends of any of these, but at some point you've got to choose which direction you're going. Power Raid's thing could work, but it's leaning on their freedom too much for me, and I do not like the precedent set by allowing the government to decide the conduct/purchase power of individuals from both an egalitarian and an economic mindset.

People are still free to smoke, so I’m unsure how there is an impact on freedom.

If they wish to get insurance for a known killer 3x greater than Covid, they are free to pay for it.

Swiping Medicare to buy cigarettes doesn’t stop people from buying them. Rather is provided scientists and medical practitioners relevant data. The data can save lives, remove myths and allocate resources and assist in planning.

No freedoms are infringed.