Opinion Chris Scott's coaching - PART III

[Art Vandelay_]

Examples of players being dropped? when were C Guthrie, Motlop and Blicavs dropped last year for poor form?

Thurlows 2nd JLT game was better than all the kids have shown so far, even if he has been mediocre in the VFL his kicking alone is good enough to get him in the team, especially with Duncan out

None deserved it.
Post dismissed.

 

[Partridge]

None deserved it.
Post dismissed.

That's very nice. In your head you might dismiss posts but thankfully not on here.

They all deserved it. Motlop had a couple that were barely VFL standard. Blicavs was atrocious as a midfielder mid year but with a commendable regularity saved his worst for the finals. Guthrie not as bad as those two but had some shockers as well.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Which team and coach would you prefer CS/Geelong to be more like?

Gotta say I like Clarkson/Faegan. The Hawks have had a consistent strong system that has just stood up even with injuries.
Wouldn't surprise me if Brissy end up competing sooner than expected too.
I thought Stuey Dew was a great choice for GC.
Played under Choco and Clarkson then went on to coach under Roos and Longmire. Can't go wrong really.
My favourite coach though is McCartney. I don't underestimate the role he played in all our flags as well as Footscray. I'd put money on Melbourne's young players coming on strong in the next couple of years too.
Not that I don't think CS is good, but there are many quality people around.
There's been no need to almost exclusively surround himself with ex teammates and former players he coached.
Could of been a lot of experience and ideas bought in by people who've worked in good systems under good coaches.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

That's very nice. In your head you might dismiss posts but thankfully not on here.

They all deserved it. Motlop had a couple that were barely VFL standard. Blicavs was atrocious as a midfielder mid year but with a commendable regularity saved his worst for the finals. Guthrie not as bad as those two but had some shockers as well.

You don’t drop a senior player after a couple of bad games or do we drop Joel if he’s rubbish this weekend? The drop Motlop argument simply was not credible.
Blicavs was better, and still is, than Stanley. That ends that discussion.

But nice deflection though. The point was clearly about not dropping favourites in the context of now, as in 2018, in 2018 that is not a credible argument. By all means stick to the past though. It actually no longer matters.

 

[cynical]

None deserved it.
Post dismissed.

AFL Player Ratings from last year

Motlop
6 Coll One great goal only highlight of an error-filled performance in which his inability to make correct decisions is diabolical. 3
7 GCS Pulled out of one contest that didn’t look great and was never a factor; 11 effective disposals, one goal and four inside-50s. 3
8 Ess For three quarters he was horrible then came to life in the final term to grab 12 disposals. Where was urgency early in game? 4
9 WB Stats sheet suggest okay (18 disposals) but reality was he had very little impact on the game. Better than previous weeks. 4

Blicavs
4 Haw Quiet first half (one kick) and theme continued until copped shin injury in second half and was taken off the ground. 3
5 StK Five effective disposals in first half and theme continued. Opened up a butcher shop at one stage he was so poor. 2
6 Coll Another poor day in the middle. At some point coaching staff will work out he can’t play midfield to save himself; 9 eff disposals. 2
7 GCS At some point he has to find his way back to the VFL. Thrashed in ruck and had four kicks for the night. 1
8 Ess Copped a knee injury but to that point was a non-factor for third week in a row. Playing midfield he had four kicks, no tackles. 1
9 WB Much better effort without starring; 18 possessions but only nine were effective. Four tackles, one clearance. 4

Cam Guthrie
17 Haw Quiet one with one inside-50 and 13 effective disposals and three tackles. Still a little off in terms of impact. 4
18 Adel Not sure what is going on but his season if fizzing, and fizzing fast. Could not get anything going at all. 2
19 Carl Played forward again but still well short of his best. Mustered four kicks but okay defensively on Blues’ half-backs. 2
20 Syd Rotated midfield/forward but again struggled. Nice snap goal in third term but is still struggling to impact games. 3

Shows they all had at least a terrible month of football, all should have been dropped. The ratings on the end are out of 10 just in case people dont know.

 

[Spazz Cat]

That's very nice. In your head you might dismiss posts but thankfully not on here.

They all deserved it. Motlop had a couple that were barely VFL standard. Blicavs was atrocious as a midfielder mid year but with a commendable regularity saved his worst for the finals. Guthrie not as bad as those two but had some shockers as well.

All 3 of those players totally deserved to be dropped at times over 2016,17.
How Motlop wasn't after a few of his efforts I'll never know.

 

[Spazz Cat]

AFL Player Ratings from last year

Motlop
6 Coll One great goal only highlight of an error-filled performance in which his inability to make correct decisions is diabolical. 3
7 GCS Pulled out of one contest that didn’t look great and was never a factor; 11 effective disposals, one goal and four inside-50s. 3
8 Ess For three quarters he was horrible then came to life in the final term to grab 12 disposals. Where was urgency early in game? 4
9 WB Stats sheet suggest okay (18 disposals) but reality was he had very little impact on the game. Better than previous weeks. 4

Blicavs
4 Haw Quiet first half (one kick) and theme continued until copped shin injury in second half and was taken off the ground. 3
5 StK Five effective disposals in first half and theme continued. Opened up a butcher shop at one stage he was so poor. 2
6 Coll Another poor day in the middle. At some point coaching staff will work out he can’t play midfield to save himself; 9 eff disposals. 2
7 GCS At some point he has to find his way back to the VFL. Thrashed in ruck and had four kicks for the night. 1
8 Ess Copped a knee injury but to that point was a non-factor for third week in a row. Playing midfield he had four kicks, no tackles. 1
9 WB Much better effort without starring; 18 possessions but only nine were effective. Four tackles, one clearance. 4

Cam Guthrie
17 Haw Quiet one with one inside-50 and 13 effective disposals and three tackles. Still a little off in terms of impact. 4
18 Adel Not sure what is going on but his season if fizzing, and fizzing fast. Could not get anything going at all. 2
19 Carl Played forward again but still well short of his best. Mustered four kicks but okay defensively on Blues’ half-backs. 2
20 Syd Rotated midfield/forward but again struggled. Nice snap goal in third term but is still struggling to impact games. 3

Shows they all had at least a terrible month of football, all should have been dropped. The ratings on the end are out of 10 just in case people dont know.

Well know get the Inside Footy is biased argument and they just hate those players etc, etc.
I bet if you looked on the Autopsy threads on here most would of agreed with all those.

 

[Vdubs]

Gotta say I like Clarkson/Faegan. The Hawks have had a consistent strong system that has just stood up even with injuries.
Wouldn't surprise me if Brissy end up competing sooner than expected too.
I thought Stuey Dew was a great choice for GC.
Played under Choco and Clarkson then went on to coach under Roos and Longmire. Can't go wrong really.
My favourite coach though is McCartney. I don't underestimate the role he played in all our flags as well as Footscray. I'd put money on Melbourne's young players coming on strong in the next couple of years too.
Not that I don't think CS is good, but there are many quality people around.
There's been no need to almost exclusively surround himself with ex teammates and former players he coached.
Could of been a lot of experience and ideas bought in by people who've worked in good systems under good coaches.

Has any team had a more consistent strong system than ours though?
We have lost how many premiership players on ur way to recurrent finals.
In that time Lions languish on the bottom., Hawks missed finals last year as we did 3 years ago.

 

[PatrickBateman]

AFL Player Ratings from last year

Cam Guthrie
17 Haw Quiet one with one inside-50 and 13 effective disposals and three tackles. Still a little off in terms of impact. 4
18 Adel Not sure what is going on but his season if fizzing, and fizzing fast. Could not get anything going at all. 2
19 Carl Played forward again but still well short of his best. Mustered four kicks but okay defensively on Blues’ half-backs. 2
20 Syd Rotated midfield/forward but again struggled. Nice snap goal in third term but is still struggling to impact games. 3

That's going light on my man Cam from last year, the senior player (leadership group) who came 19th in the Carji of that year. Who was tried and failed in every part of the ground. I can't recall a player given more opportunity, who's deficiencies have been more overlooked. I find it fascinating, as you'd know. I especially liked his attempted 25m chip kick early on in the game on Sunday that ended up in the crowd, 4 rows back.

You're 100% correct though. This is poor leadership / management, it breeds acceptance of mediocrity, while instilling a lack of desire from players on the fringe. Look at how Menegola was treated conversely this time last year, he had a great impact at the end of 2016, only played 1 average game early in 2017, dropped. Was given no leeway at all, then came back and still made Guthrie and Motlop look 4th rate.

Anyone who's been involved in clubs at any level knows this goes on. Grass roots all the way to the top.

 

[Partridge]

You don’t drop a senior player after a couple of bad games or do we drop Joel if he’s rubbish this weekend? The drop Motlop argument simply was not credible.
Blicavs was better, and still is, than Stanley. That ends that discussion.

But nice deflection though. The point was clearly about not dropping favourites in the context of now, as in 2018, in 2018 that is not a credible argument. By all means stick to the past though. It actually no longer matters.

Then neither do the previous achievements of Joel Selwood or any other player. Neither does Scott's home and away percentage from the years 2011-2017. Neither does the premiership of 2011.

In your own words - it actually no longer matters.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

AFL Player Ratings from last year

Motlop
6 Coll One great goal only highlight of an error-filled performance in which his inability to make correct decisions is diabolical. 3
7 GCS Pulled out of one contest that didn’t look great and was never a factor; 11 effective disposals, one goal and four inside-50s. 3
8 Ess For three quarters he was horrible then came to life in the final term to grab 12 disposals. Where was urgency early in game? 4
9 WB Stats sheet suggest okay (18 disposals) but reality was he had very little impact on the game. Better than previous weeks. 4

Blicavs
4 Haw Quiet first half (one kick) and theme continued until copped shin injury in second half and was taken off the ground. 3
5 StK Five effective disposals in first half and theme continued. Opened up a butcher shop at one stage he was so poor. 2
6 Coll Another poor day in the middle. At some point coaching staff will work out he can’t play midfield to save himself; 9 eff disposals. 2
7 GCS At some point he has to find his way back to the VFL. Thrashed in ruck and had four kicks for the night. 1
8 Ess Copped a knee injury but to that point was a non-factor for third week in a row. Playing midfield he had four kicks, no tackles. 1
9 WB Much better effort without starring; 18 possessions but only nine were effective. Four tackles, one clearance. 4

Cam Guthrie
17 Haw Quiet one with one inside-50 and 13 effective disposals and three tackles. Still a little off in terms of impact. 4
18 Adel Not sure what is going on but his season if fizzing, and fizzing fast. Could not get anything going at all. 2
19 Carl Played forward again but still well short of his best. Mustered four kicks but okay defensively on Blues’ half-backs. 2
20 Syd Rotated midfield/forward but again struggled. Nice snap goal in third term but is still struggling to impact games. 3

Shows they all had at least a terrible month of football, all should have been dropped. The ratings on the end are out of 10 just in case people dont know.

Motlop:

27 touches and a goal v Pies. Rated 3 okay then
Suns game was poor.
Dons game we were well touched up. 20 and a goal isn’t getting anyone dropped when the team as a whole was poor
The Motlop out claim was never credible.

Blicavs has a poor month. Granted.
As is always the case, he is better than Stanley and was in 2017 and was in that period, that was a period in the season where one week Stanley would play well (Port Melbourne) and then the next week get slapped around by a teenage beenpole (Casey), hardly the form of someone who should come into the side.

Guthrie Was down in those weeks. Regained form with 3 games of 20+ touches, tackles and clearances straight after that. Had kept Martin subdued in the QF. He got off the leash after he got injured.

Football isn’t fair, senior players always get more rope to regain form than junior players. Otherwise a bad performance on Sunday would see Joel in the gun.

Well know get the Inside Footy is biased argument and they just hate those players etc, etc.
I bet if you looked on the Autopsy threads on here most would of agreed with all those.

Hogwash. Keep those assumptions for the gutter Spazz.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Has any team had a more consistent strong system than ours though?
We have lost how many premiership players on ur way to recurrent finals.
In that time Lions languish on the bottom., Hawks missed finals last year as we did 3 years ago.

Bar Swans (Cola) and obviously Hawthorn No I don't think so.
The point is when some say "Well who else is there?" is that there is always bloody heaps of good people in football.
Also doesn't matter how good our system is it's not like all other 17 teams have had nothing to offer and we do all aspects the best.
The arrogant and deluded ideology of keeping everything incestuous because we are simply the best at everything at the expense of not bringing in experience and ideas from other clubs has hurt us.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Then neither do the previous achievements of Joel Selwood or any other player. Neither does Scott's home and away percentage from the years 2011-2017. Neither does the premiership of 2011.

In your own words - it actually no longer matters.

So you’re in agreement then. The past can’t be rectified and you were clearly referring to this season. A claim that isn’t credible when the proposed inclusion is Thurlow.

Btw he had 9 touches in Round 1 of the VFL so I’m changing my own mind, injuries not withstanding he doesn’t deserve a recall. Cunico instead then.

 

[Ratcat]

You could say this for any number of players where there are options. Stanley for example can be so hot and cold from one week to the next it is nearly impossible to stick with him him I think.

Smith is No1 ruck by a margin that's why he should be playing each week.
Why weaken attack and defence by playing keys as ruckman when you have an experienced specialist ruck in Smith.
Only serves to weaken all of fwd/def/and ruck.

 

[Spazz Cat]

Motlop:

27 touches and a goal v Pies. Rated 3 okay then
Suns game was poor.
Dons game we were well touched up. 20 and a goal isn’t getting anyone dropped when the team as a whole was poor
The Motlop out claim was never credible.

Blicavs has a poor month. Granted.
As is always the case, he is better than Stanley and was in 2017 and was in that period, that was a period in the season where one week Stanley would play well (Port Melbourne) and then the next week get slapped around by a teenage beenpole (Casey), hardly the form of someone who should come into the side.

Guthrie Was down in those weeks. Regained form with 3 games of 20+ touches, tackles and clearances straight after that. Had kept Martin subdued in the QF. He got off the leash after he got injured.

Football isn’t fair, senior players always get more rope to regain form than junior players. Otherwise a bad performance on Sunday would see Joel in the gun.

Hogwash. Keep those assumptions for the gutter Spazz.

Anyone can look at stats mate. I remember that Collingwood game well and Motlop was shite. His ball use in that game was some of the worst I've seen.
Blatantly shirked contests and poor effort overall.
Anytime someone brings up an inside footy quote you get that shit.
Often you get the "He had 20 possessions at 70%DE" or something similar.
So what? Did you watch the game? Do you remember it?

 

[Partridge]

So you’re in agreement then. The past can’t be rectified and you were clearly referring to this season. A claim that isn’t credible when the proposed inclusion is Thurlow.

Btw he had 9 touches in Round 1 of the VFL so I’m changing my own mind, injuries not withstanding he doesn’t deserve a recall. Cunico instead then.

Already mentioned Thurlow above. To clarify - if he is not in form - then he doesn't come back. If they are absolutely desperate for a mature body in the backline, he might, for say Zac Guthrie. But I would always prefer form to be the main impetus.

Haven't seen enough of Cunico, but if he's in form then fair enough.

 

[Fyre]

So you’re in agreement then. The past can’t be rectified and you were clearly referring to this season. A claim that isn’t credible when the proposed inclusion is Thurlow.

Btw he had 9 touches in Round 1 of the VFL so I’m changing my own mind, injuries not withstanding he doesn’t deserve a recall. Cunico instead then.

Played 1/2 a game in the VFL Round 1 as he was pulled and kept as an emergency for the Hawthorn game. Cunico not a defender either. Both should be under consideration for this weekend for different positions.

 

[Vdubs]

Smith is No1 ruck by a margin that's why he should be playing each week.
Why weaken attack and defence by playing keys as ruckman when you have an experienced specialist ruck in Smith.

This time last year he was also behind in preparation and dropped, but because we covered his presence with Stanley, Blic and won, there were no complaints.
It's early days. We lost, but they believe that Smith's form does not demand selection.Pretty simple. Let's move on and wait for this week.

 

[cynical]

Motlop:

27 touches and a goal v Pies. Rated 3 okay then
Suns game was poor.
Dons game we were well touched up. 20 and a goal isn’t getting anyone dropped when the team as a whole was poor
The Motlop out claim was never credible.

Blicavs has a poor month. Granted.
As is always the case, he is better than Stanley and was in 2017 and was in that period, that was a period in the season where one week Stanley would play well (Port Melbourne) and then the next week get slapped around by a teenage beenpole (Casey), hardly the form of someone who should come into the side.

Guthrie Was down in those weeks. Regained form with 3 games of 20+ touches, tackles and clearances straight after that. Had kept Martin subdued in the QF. He got off the leash after he got injured.

Football isn’t fair, senior players always get more rope to regain form than junior players. Otherwise a bad performance on Sunday would see Joel in the gun.

Hogwash. Keep those assumptions for the gutter Spazz.

Motlop had 4 clangers and only 1 tackle he obviously did multiple poor things, the rating was overly harsh but not too far off. The Suns game where he squibbed a contest he could have easily been dropped. Personally I thought he should have been dropped for the good of the player and the team.

Blicavs had a poor 6 weeks not just a month. Doesn't matter how well Stanley was going Blicavs should have been dropped, even if its just for 1 week.

Guthrie was poor for a month it doesn't matter how well he played after. He was mediocre for most of the year.

Players should be dropped for having 2-3 very bad weeks, doesn't matter who comes in for them. You have to breed consistency into the team not complacency which is what Chris Scott has done.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Anyone can look at stats mate. I remember that Collingwood game well and Motlop was shite. His ball use in that game was some of the worst I've seen.
Blatantly shirked contests and poor effort overall.
Anytime someone brings up an inside footy quote you get that shit.
Often you get the "He had 20 possessions at 70%DE" or something similar.
So what? Did you watch the game? Do you remember it?

If ball use is the criterion then we have 20 guys up for dropping after the first half last week do we not? In fact if that’s what we’re measuring on then I dare say we’ll be dropping 5+ every week, and mostly defenders. If butchering the footy whilst amassing touches is a droppable offence then Danger better get a map out to find some of these VFL grounds.

I do remember that game. Like most against the Pies recently a lot of the team was rubbish, don’t know what it is about the Pies.
You need to use your head though. A guy who kicks a goal and touches the ball nearly 30 times is never getting dropped, particularly on a bad loss where many others were poor and only a fortnight earlier was BOG with 33 and 3.

Already mentioned Thurlow above. To clarify - if he is not in form - then he doesn't come back. If they are absolutely desperate for a mature body in the backline, he might, for say Zac Guthrie. But I would always prefer form to be the main impetus.

Haven't seen enough of Cunico, but if he in form then fair enough.

Possibly. I can’t see an obvious replacement for Zac atm so he’ll likely stay. His brother is probably the best fit but injured. Thurlow isn’t really deserving and I can’t think of a small defender still in the VFL.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

Motlop had 4 clangers and only 1 tackle he obviously did multiple poor things, the rating was overly harsh but not too far off. The Suns game where he squibbed a contest he could have easily been dropped. Personally I thought he should have been dropped for the good of the player and the team.

Blicavs had a poor 6 weeks not just a month. Doesn't matter how well Stanley was going Blicavs should have been dropped, even if its just for 1 week.

Guthrie was poor for a month it doesn't matter how well he played after. He was mediocre for most of the year.

Players should be dropped for having 2-3 very bad weeks, doesn't matter who comes in for them. You have to breed consistency into the team not complacency which is what Chris Scott has done.

You’re contradicting yourself.

So often the beacon for the “we have poor depth” movement yet want senior players dropped after poor games.
If our depth is great then them at super harsh selection policy is often the line taken.

So which is it?

 

[Ratcat]

This time last year he was also behind in preparation and dropped, but because we covered his presence with Stanley, Blic and won, there were no complaints.
It's early days. We lost, but they believe that Smith's form does not demand selection.Pretty simple. Let's move on and wait for this week.

It better change wouldn't you reckon? Didn't even play Stanley last week.
Their talls eventually got a hold of us, that's the truth it was inevitable, so surely not more of the same!

 

[Spazz Cat]

If ball use is the criterion then we have 20 guys up for dropping after the first half last week do we not? In fact if that’s what we’re measuring on then I dare say we’ll be dropping 5+ every week, and mostly defenders. If butchering the footy whilst amassing touches is a droppable offence then Danger better get a map out to find some of these VFL grounds.

I do remember that game. Like most against the Pies recently a lot of the team was rubbish, don’t know what it is about the Pies.
You need to use your head though. A guy who kicks a goal and touches the ball nearly 30 times is never getting dropped, particularly on a bad loss where many others were poor and only a fortnight earlier was BOG with 33 and 3.

Possibly. I can’t see an obvious replacement for Zac atm so he’ll likely stay. His brother is probably the best fit but injured. Thurlow isn’t really deserving and I can’t think of a small defender still in the VFL.

He was really poor. For some reason he was in the back half a lot. Direct turnovers under no pressure leading to goals.
Pies were smart and kept blocking his right side leading to some humourous moments.
Pulled one of the biggest squibs in recent times too. Way worse than the Suns one which I could hardly blame him for TBH.
Motlop needed to be dropped at times IMO. Particularly in 2016. One of his efforts against Essendon was so bad you'd drop Joel Selwood if he did it.
Difference with Danger doesn't matter how bad his ball use is, every single game he'll find a way to impact the game and make a positive difference.
Never seen him have no impact or just fade away like Motlop did many times.

 

[Art Vandelay_]

He was really poor. For some reason he was in the back half a lot. Direct turnovers under no pressure leading to goals.
Pies were smart and kept blocking his right side leading to some humourous moments.
Pulled one of the biggest squibs in recent times too. Way worse than the Suns one which I could hardly blame him for TBH.
Motlop needed to be dropped at times IMO. Particularly in 2016. One of his efforts against Essendon was so bad you'd drop Joel Selwood if he did it.

Now we’re going back to 2016
Imo Motlop suffered the same problem Hawkins does and probably to an extent Cockatoo does.

We’re mostly all in agreement Hawkins isn’t the problem, it’s more how slowly we move the ball. Well this affected Motlop also. Plays on a wing and what’s he see with our slow movement... no space to run into and a clogged forward 50 to kick to. Plays forward pocket and by the time the ball gets there the forward 50 has 35 guys in it. Hard to express yourself as a flair player.

The 2016 PF was the game I thought this was the biggest problem. Any time we got the ball in space on the wing we moved it so slow that Jones marked everything all night.

Not sure how we got into this. The inference was clearly about picking favourites in 2018. Which isn’t a credible claim.

 

[cynical]

You’re contradicting yourself.

So often the beacon for the “we have poor depth” movement yet want senior players dropped after poor games.
If our depth is great then them at super harsh selection policy is often the line taken.

So which is it?

I'll take it you agree with justification of those players being dropped.

Depth has nothing to do with dropping players or not.

It's about team discipline, if a senior player is putting up poor performances they should be dropped regardless of how good his replacement is.