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Citizen's arrest

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kaysee

kaysee

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Had an incident in the City today during my lunch break:

Had lunch with the Wife and were doing some window shopping on the siedwalk when we heard a commotion behind us. We turn around and see 3 people disputing over a backpack: a lady, a guy in his mid 40s, and a guy in his early to mid 20s.

Stood there for a few moments assessing the situation which seemed: lady claimed mid 20s youth stole some things from her shop, youth was denying, mid 40s guy was trying to act as "moderator" to determine who was right. Mid 40s guy eventually trying to get the youth to tell him what was in the bag and if he had receipts for things. Whilst this was happening mid 40s guy was asking people to call the police.

Quite a few onlookers around and some on phones. Not sure if they were calling police or not I decided to start calling 000 to get them to the scene. Now the youth decided to do a runner (leaving the bag and scene) and ran fairly close by me. Without even thinking I took chase and within 20m tackled and pinned him down... ok he wasn't the most agile guy and he seemed "out of it". Another guy and I had him under control, but he wanted to be let up and "promised" not to run etc... we let him up and he tried barter with the lady to avoid police involvement.

All involved people slow walked/escorted him 20m back to the original scene... by this time the mid 40s guy had to leave and all other guys left except for me and another guy trying to get through to the police (I was starting to feel vulnerable now... not liking confrontation and no lacking the "safety in numbers"). Anyway, he now did another runner and again I pursued and tackled him in the same spot as before... this time not letting him up (he was rather slightly built and smallish... I am about 6'2" and 95kgs). Another onlooking man now assisted in keeping him pinned whilst we waited for police.

A few moments later a pair of police "walking the beat" came along and took over (not that they showed any urgency when they saw we had him pinned)... and took statements etc before another squad car arrived.

Turns out he had a bunch of low value items in his backpack (energy saving bulbs WTF??? bolt cutters)... but also a couple of new looking, big fricking kitchen kinves (Cleaver and large veggie knife)... which got me thinking "thank f%^& he didn't have the chance to get them out.

Anyway... got me thinking afterwards... how many people thse days would "get involved" and do something similar.

Feel free to share stories and comment.
 
Always wondered about the term 'citizen's arrest'. Is there really such a thing? Really, you have to reasonably believe that someone has committed a crime and apprehend them while waiting for the police as you did. Now if you resist police arrest, you risk further charges. If you resist a citizen's arrest, then I wouldn't imagine anything would happen as the citizen has no authority. Could a perpetrator turn around and sue a citizen for having been restrained or even injured during this 'arrest'? I would imagine so.
 
Technically he could press charges of assualt against you for tackling and pinning him down.
 

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Good on you for making a difference, but personally, I wouldn't have bothered.

I know this will seem soft and like I'm very self-obsorbed in my own world, but if they guy left behind the backpack with the items he stole in it and did a runner, if I were you I would have just let him go, instead of taking a heap of time out of my day and risking my own safety to get involved.
 
Hey I'm not a lawyer, but to make a lawful citizen's arrest you need something like reasonable suspicion that the offender had committed a crime and also can't use more than reasonable force in apprehending him. You saw that he was being accused of theft and he tried to run away, there's your reasonable suspicion (logic fellas - you don't run if you're innocent). Doesn't sound like you used too much force either.

Job well done and the last thing you should be receiving now is criticism.

Of course citizens have a right to detain, you think if you catch someone raping your wife you can't detain them? Often security guards are only backed be citizen's rights. An arrest by definition is a detainment, and we do allow citizen's arrests.
 
HarryTiger said:
Hey I'm not a lawyer, but to make a lawful citizen's arrest you need something like reasonable suspicion that the offender had committed a crime and also can't use more than reasonable force in apprehending him. You saw that he was being accused of theft and he tried to run away, there's your reasonable suspicion (logic fellas - you don't run if you're innocent). Doesn't sound like you used too much force either.

Job well done and the last thing you should be receiving now is criticism.

Of course citizens have a right to detain, you think if you catch someone raping your wife you can't detain them? Often security guards are only backed be citizen's rights. An arrest by definition is a detainment, and we do allow citizen's arrests.
Click to expand...

Sounds about right to me.
 

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A few interesting thoughts here. I am honestly a rather passive, non-confrontational sort of bloke. It was a split second decision to stay/chase and with so many other people around I was half expecting someone else to retain him and I would "back them up". Like someone else suggested innocent people don't run.

He seemed rather 'out of it' and rather submissive without resisting too much (thankfully), so excessive force wasn't required.

As others have said there is the chance he could press charges etc and my Wife and I were discussing that afterwards. I said that seems to be more common in the US and I haven't heard too much of it happening down under (except for a few home invasion cases). Also I don't think this guy was really switched on enough to consider that course of action.
 
kaysee said:
Had an incident in the City today during my lunch break:

Feel free to share stories and comment.
Click to expand...

Are you Nic Naitanui?
 
kaysee said:
A few interesting thoughts here. I am honestly a rather passive, non-confrontational sort of bloke. It was a split second decision to stay/chase and with so many other people around I was half expecting someone else to retain him and I would "back them up". Like someone else suggested innocent people don't run.

He seemed rather 'out of it' and rather submissive without resisting too much (thankfully), so excessive force wasn't required.

As others have said there is the chance he could press charges etc and my Wife and I were discussing that afterwards. I said that seems to be more common in the US and I haven't heard too much of it happening down under (except for a few home invasion cases). Also I don't think this guy was really switched on enough to consider that course of action.
Click to expand...

I have no problem with you doing it. It will make him think twice before trying to steal again and that can't be a bad thing. I was just wondering if there was anything written anywhere about a citizen's arrest. Is it an official term or is it something that was coined in an American movie somewhere as though it had some official weight behind it?

I'm thinking that there is no such thing and that it is really just a minor vigilante action that has grown some sort of stature.

I do believe that in Australia in most situations, if the perpetrator tried to sue you for illegally detaining or because he was traumatised or got a bruise from you detaining him, a judge would probably consider your actions justified because the guy is a parasite on society. He would put it more eloquently however.

There are exceptions of course so we must be careful.
 
The original site for this was down but google cache had it.

I think you're in the right, even though it says "crime is in the process of being committed", I believe the circumstances qualify as he was suspected of departing the scene with stolen goods, it's near enough. You couldn't arrest him the next day for it though, that's a job for the police.

Arrest: without warrant
In accordance with the Crimes Act, any person can arrest any other person when they
a) find them committing an indictable or summary offence (does not have to find them doing it red handed, as long as they believe on reasonable grounds that they have committed or are intending to commit an offence)
b) are instructed to do so by a police officer
c) apprehend a person escaping legal custody
The arrest must be related to the breach of a summary of indictable offence (i.e. not breach of a by-law)
In addition, apprehension must only occur if it is necessary:
1. To ensure court appearance
2. To preserve public order
3. To prevent further offending
4. To maintain the safety or welfare o the public or of the offender.
Police have additional powers to arrest individuals where they believe on reasonable grounds that the suspect may have committed an indictable offence. A citizen may only conduct an arrest (citizens arrest) where a crime is in the process of being committed.
There is statutory power in the Crimes Act to enter or search private property without a warrant when arresting persons for serious indictable offences (crimes punishable by 5+ years of imprisonment) or for those escaping from legal custody.
Click to expand...

ttp://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache...ns+arrest"+victoria&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au
 
Good work, the guy was gutter trash!

He was carrying:

Energy saver bulbs: Home made crack pipe.

Bolt Cutters: 100% bike thief.

Knife: What a dick, should be locked up!
 
HarryTiger said:
The original site for this was down but google cache had it.

I think you're in the right, even though it says "crime is in the process of being committed", I believe the circumstances qualify as he was suspected of departing the scene with stolen goods, it's near enough. You couldn't arrest him the next day for it though, that's a job for the police.



ttp://74.125.153.132/search?q=cache...ns+arrest"+victoria&cd=14&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=au
Click to expand...

Wow that is cool. So you can do it and can even enter a house to do it and you only have to reasonably suspect they have done something.

I am still sure that they can't be done for resisting arrest if they resist a citizen's arrest.
 

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kaysee said:
Had an incident in the City today during my lunch break:

Turns out he had a bunch of low value items in his backpack (energy saving bulbs WTF??? bolt cutters)... but also a couple of new looking, big fricking kitchen kinves (Cleaver and large veggie knife)... which got me thinking "thank f%^& he didn't have the chance to get them out.

Anyway... got me thinking afterwards... how many people thse days would "get involved" and do something similar.

Feel free to share stories and comment.
Click to expand...

Personally I think the answer is underlined. Bringing a fist to a knife fight is NOT smart.

Also
- low level offence - shop steal
- goods recovered - when the offender dropped the bag
- not your arrest - the female shop owner saw the event. Had she actually arrested the male? If not, was he therefore escaping lawful custody?
- what if you had injured yourself in the scuffle. Break an arm or something. Who pays for the treatment, the time off work, the loss of income? A good defence lawyer could turn your actions into that a of a vigilante. Historically the courts have taken the deprivation of one's liberty to be a serious offence...far more serious than a simple shop steal.

As far as Im concerned, the goods are recovered, the thief wants to get away and im uninjured...seems like a win win to me. Just phone the cops with a description and leave it at that and go home to your wife.
 
Victorian Crimes Act 1958, Section 462A

A person may use such force not disproportionate to the objective if he believes on reasonable grounds to be necessary to prevent the commission, continuance or completion of an indictable offence, or to effect or assist in effecting the lawful arrest of a person committing or suspected of committing any offence.
 
I remember a few years back being in David Jones and I saw two people shoving loads of CD's (they were bargain bin ones so I think the CD's were in them) in a bag hanging off of a pram of all things.

I decided to slowly go over to the counter and inform the lady that was there what was going on instead of really getting involved and motioned with my head to the people behind me so as not to alert them (I am like a ninja:D). She got on the phone, but not being very smart she was staring at them the whole time she was on the phone to security so they figured the jig was up and legged it.

Don't know if they caught them or not, and I didn't really care, I had done all I could.
 
I did this once, not because I cared that a crime was being commited, just that I was angry after a shit day at work and wanted to unleash on someone. I saw a guy running from some fat security guard and decided I'd get involved. Rather than tackle him to the ground though, I just kept getting in his way and annoying him until he swung at me. After that, I had the right to self defence and responded with reasonable force. Was a good day.
 

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