Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates

[BFew]

https://www.smh.com.au/national/mee...erial-killer-behind-bars-20190527-p51rhb.html

Professor Balding's mathematical model had to take all that into account, plus factor in likely degradation of the DNA, contamination, and experimental noise.

Amazingly, Professor Balding was able to come up with a new estimate of the odds it was somebody else's DNA in several of the samples: one in a billion.

“DNA, it’s now black and white. But it wasn’t early on,” Professor David Balding says.
The professor now leads a lab at Melbourne University, but back then he was a scientist working with London Metropolitan Police's forensic team.

Good to see a “real” mathematician helping solve crimes.

I wonder if Baldings lab has been assisting the CSK prosecution with some independent verification of some of the CSK DNA testing, and analysis?

 

[Catcher In The Rye]

This article has succinct information on Familial DNA. The salient point being classifying the degrees.

Minnesota Journal of Law, Science & Technology Volume 12 | Issue 2 Article 15 2011 It's All Relative: Familial DNA Testing and the Fourth Amendment Amanda Pattock

C. FAMILIAL DNA SEARCHING When a DNA sample is entered into the CODIS system the ideal situation is for an exact match to be identified. An exact DNA match provides the identity of the DNA source, thus providing investigators with a solid lead for their investigation.70 However, most often the investigator is provided with a sample that returns no exact matches. When this situation presents itself, another, more controversial, option is to run the DNA through the CODIS system in search of a partial match. In contrast to an exact DNA match, which identifies the source of the DNA, a partial match may indicate that the two sources are related biologically.71 When searching for a partial match, investigators specify exactly how many allele matches they would like CODIS to return. Typically, “identical twins will share all thirteen pairs—and first degree relatives (parent, sibling, or child) on average will share at least half.”72 Second degree relatives, such as uncles, aunts, grandparents, nieces, nephews, and half-siblings will share only one quarter of their DNA.73 Armed with this information, investigators seek partial matches and then use the results to question those individuals with the greatest likelihood of being related to the original DNA source.74

 

[craigos]

Don't any of you find it odd that straight after the arrest of BRE, there has never been a mention of finding MM again?

They searched for this person for years with no luck. If whoever it is knows about BRE being arrested then they knew about the search for MM and didn't come forward.

 

[one eyed spy]

DNA evidence is set to be vital to the case against accused Claremont serial killer Bradley Robert Edwards, with prosecutors revealing they were gathering information to prove crucial samples could not have been contaminated.

Mr Edwards’ barrister Paul Yovich had previously raised the possibility of a challenge to the DNA evidence allegedly linked to his client, and yesterday reiterated at a WA Supreme Court case management hearing that prosecutors should not assume the “continuity” of the material would not be an issue.

Prosecutor Carmel Barbagallo told the court a “number” of statements were being collected from past and present PathWest employees, who could speak to the “movement and continuity” of the evidence in their laboratories over the past two decades.

Ms Barbagallo also said she expected a PathWest forensic scientist would provide an expert report explaining the processes and methods used to analyse DNA samples over the years and how transfer and contamination might occur.

Criminal lawyers sometimes refer to “continuity” or “chain of custody” evidence when they are questioning the integrity of a sample and if it is possible the material could have been contaminated — intentionally or unintentionally — as it was moved from place to place.

https://thewest.com.au/news/claremo...-accused-were-not-contaminated-ng-b881141837z

Unfortunately this report about vital DNA evidence mentioned on March 21st still hadn't been given to the defence at the last Directions hearing in April. It's worrying that the main reason for its delay was said they were still collecting and collating statements from past and present employees. But they've been doing this over the last two years, and not a good sign that this DNA report wasn't competed by the April Directions hearing (see April Post report in Media thread).

It's possible the defence will have good grounds for challenging how the DNA was found since it wasn't discovered until years later and then the reported "fingernail" that had the DNA was sent to the wrong lab where it sat for another long period of time before testing.

While DNA evidence can't prove murder if it is successfully challenged, seems the only other forensic evidence will only be car seat fibres connecting a certain type of car to the victims. Will this be enough combined with circumstantial evidence or does the prosecution have something (or someone) else?

As a whole, what we've seen of the prosecutions case to date appears highly circumstantial & unless they have some fairly convincing evidence up their sleeve, I think they'll be relying on the judge accepting most of what they throw at him & drawing some considerable inferences from the propensity evidence to get them over the line on all charges. It doesn't look like much can stand on its own merit & safely satisfy the burden of proof required to secure each conviction & particularly relevant if any of the permissible propensity evidence isn't able to be proved come trial and is ignored. We can only wait & see how it all plays out.

Much of the forensics are confusing to me due to the timing & the circumstances we've been told surrounds them & I anticipate there likely being issues accepting some explanations for. Personal opinions or any thought of an eventual verdict aside.

I dont recall it being the DNA from the fingernails that was lost though, but rather the fibres from JR sent to Path West instead of the Chem Centre? If all of the "lost" evidence was only rediscovered in the move in 2011, it can't include that DNA if the match was said to be made in 2009. I assume it is relevant to the hold up with the expanded explanation of testing procedures though & whether it turns out to be this, the kimono DNA or both that ends up being the subject of a low template debate, I dont know. I assume the chain of custody debate will focus more so on the Kimono & the lost fibres confirmed to have come from JR when they were in Path Wests possession.

It makes me wonder what happened to the fibres they apparently recovered from CG though & where they've been considering we only heard of the holdup in disclosing those results in January this year when they claimed they were being compared to the fibres they obtained when they located the actual Commodore in his possession in 1996-1997. If they had them all along I'm not sure why we haven't heard of any comparison made previously to that particular model when it was that model of car specifically reported to having been stopped near her close to the time she disappeared & particularly since we learnt of the match between that models fabric to JR fibre. Similarly, we only heard they were awaiting the results comparing CG fibre to the actual car although no mention they were also retesting JRs fibres against it & nor to any comparisons being made between them & the new telstra fabric we recently learned are holding them up again.

Lots to find out & can only hope we get most of the answers eventually. I dont suppose we'll hear of any flies on the wall privy to the discussion had in the mediation on Thursday until the mid June appearance, if at all.

 

[Willow weeps]

Things that make you go hmm
https://thewest.com.au/news/court-j...ium=email&utm_campaign=AM+Daily+News+03.06.19

 

[Kurve]

Things that make you go hmm
https://thewest.com.au/news/court-j...ium=email&utm_campaign=AM+Daily+News+03.06.19

Path West got a mention in the thread not long after BRE was arrested, someone in there was fired for breaching protocol and they 'forgot' to tell the DPP. Nothing to suggest though the sacked scientist went anywhere near CSK evidence.

A criminal trial had to be aborted in the WA District Court last month because a potentially crucial piece of DNA evidence was not disclosed by PathWest.

The trial was halted when it emerged that a DNA sample contained two identifiable profiles, rather than just the one match disclosed in a report from the PathWest laboratory.

The undisclosed profile belonged to a person who had been implicated, but not charged, in relation to the alleged offence.

Barrister Kathryn Heslop, who represented the accused, said the PathWest report had disclosed the dominant profile only.

“It was really unclear why they didn’t disclose the second profile,” she said.

“(The second profile) came up because the prosecutor and I specifically inquired about a specific person and the PathWest officer said we have got their DNA profile. That was it.”

Ms Heslop declined to elaborate on the details of the case, which will be listed for a fresh trial. She was waiting on a full explanation from PathWest.

https://thewest.com.au/news/court-j...ium=email&utm_campaign=AM+Daily+News+03.06.19

 

[Willow weeps]

Path West got a mention in the thread not long after BRE was arrested, someone in there was fired for breaching protocol and they 'forgot' to tell the DPP. Nothing to suggest though the sacked scientist went anywhere near CSK evidence.

A criminal trial had to be aborted in the WA District Court last month because a potentially crucial piece of DNA evidence was not disclosed by PathWest.

The trial was halted when it emerged that a DNA sample contained two identifiable profiles, rather than just the one match disclosed in a report from the PathWest laboratory.

The undisclosed profile belonged to a person who had been implicated, but not charged, in relation to the alleged offence.

Barrister Kathryn Heslop, who represented the accused, said the PathWest report had disclosed the dominant profile only.

“It was really unclear why they didn’t disclose the second profile,” she said.

“(The second profile) came up because the prosecutor and I specifically inquired about a specific person and the PathWest officer said we have got their DNA profile. That was it.”

Ms Heslop declined to elaborate on the details of the case, which will be listed for a fresh trial. She was waiting on a full explanation from PathWest.

https://thewest.com.au/news/court-j...ium=email&utm_campaign=AM+Daily+News+03.06.19

I really hope you're right.It has bothered me ever since PathWest made the headlines after BRE was arrested

 

[sprockets]

Makes you wonder about the process. I'd like more info on what's gone on in the above case because it'd seem that if the DNA of two people is found then both names should be supplied to investigators and anyone it affects, such as the defendant.

 

[craigos]

Maybe BRE was just a creep who liked to collect and dress in strange womens clothes.

I do wonder how truly free the judge will be to rule on this case. Would be very surprised if the one Stephen Hall isn't appointed to a rather high ranking position prior to retirement

 

[Eaglette01]

https://www.perthnow.com.au/news/cl...idence-could-delay-trial-start-ng-b881220417z

Lawyers for alleged Claremont serial killer Bradley Robert Edwards, and the prosecutors who will accuse of him of WA’s most notorious murders, will argue later this week over whether the start of his trial should be delayed.
The trial of former Telstra technician Mr Edwards, who is accused of the murders of Ciara Glennon, Sarah Spiers and Jane Rimmer, had been due to start in WA’s Supreme Court in July.
But potentially important new evidence – centred around the type of clothing worn by Telstra workers around the time of the murders in the mid 90s – emerged earlier this year.
The court was told then that prosecutors planned to compare fibres from the clothing with fibres found on other materials involved in the case.

A previous pre-trial hearing was told that that testing, and a subsequent ChemCentre report, was unlikely to be complete before the end of June – which would then have to be disclosed to, and considered by, the defence team.
Justice Stephen Hall, the judge who alone will preside over the trial, said at the time he was concerned the new inquiries would threaten the start date of the scheduled nine-month trial.
Lead prosecutor Carmel Barbagallo said they were “acutely aware” of the impending trial, but said “the potential of this evidence, we say, is quite significant”.
WA’s Supreme Court revealed today that the hearing over whether the trial will have to be delayed will be held this Thursday - 06 June 2019.

 

[vornez]

I read this Women's day article from a magazine (quite outdated now) on csk. That detective had made some very accurate presumptions about the nature of this guy, her opinion was that due to the extensive nature of forests, there are many locations that not even bushwalkers walk into. We too have the state forest in our back garden, and it takes many weeks to discover it all.

That unknown person out the front of the Claremont hotel never did get identified right. It doesn't look like Edwards, he probably never left his car, let alone had the audacity to enter a bar.

Those CCTV cameras, back then you'd pay $500 for a camera and the picture is like 20 x 20 pixels, nowadays a camera costs $20 and the picture is about 1920 x 1080 pixels.

No one can really get away with murder in such a small town. If you're assigning 100 detectives to a case and Perth's population is 2 million and half are automatically excluded as female, then another 60% because they're too young or too old, that's 1 detective for every 4000 people. It would only take a detective 1 year to go through that list. And say if that list was listing offenders first or people who own white commodores, it would happen much faster. They have this tendancy to get the wrong guy. Like there will be another guy who they don't like the look of and they'll have instant tunnel vision.

 

[BFew]

They have this tendancy to get the wrong guy

Hopefully a lot lot lot less now.

Rapid advances in police use of DNA science and surveillance tools make it much harder to get away with getting the wrong guy nowadays.

 

[Badge666]

Apparently Pencil Sharpener had some sort of association with swimming championships in the Cottesloe Area. He also reportedly had the nickname "Hoff "- for the character played by David Hasselhoff on the American TV series Baywatch.
Baywatch covered a fictional group of beach lifeguards and their interpersonal relationships as they confronted plot topics like earthquakes , shark attacks and SERIAL KILLERs,,....saving people from death by drowning was a typical situation of the show.....sharpener even had a photo of the" Hoff" on his profile page for Facebook........

 

[Sorbet Bliss]

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...o-new-potential-evidence-20190606-p51v2b.html

WAToday
By Heather McNeill

June 6, 2019 — 10.10am


"The trial of accused Claremont serial killer Bradley Robert Edwards could be postponed to November, due to the late admission of new potential evidence by the state."

"Prosecutor Carmel Barbagallo SC revealed in April the state had uncovered Telstra clothing that was used by technicians during the 1990s, over the same period when Sarah Spiers, Jane Rimmer and Ciara Glennon were murdered."

"The potential of this evidence, we say, is quite significant," she said.

"Mr Yovich has requested a new trial start date not before the 18 November."

 

[Sorbet Bliss]

Claremont Serial Killings: lawyers for accused killer Bradley Robert Edwards bid to delay trial until November

Shannon Hampton
The West Australian
Thursday, 6 June 2019 11:00AM

https://thewest.com.au/news/claremo...-to-delay-trial-until-november-ng-b881222634z

"Mr Yovich today said he was still waiting on disclosure from the State and said he arrived at the November date after discussions with defence experts, saying the earliest date he could meet his disclosure obligations would be October 18."

"The court was told the prosecution was not expecting one of its expert reports until July 19 – three days before the trial is due to start."

“The earliest dates that we considered would meet the necessary considerations allowing us to meet the State case, know the state case and to know in enough detail what our response to the state case would be to start the trial,” Mr Yovich said.


"Prosecutor Carmel Barbagallo has conceded the trial should be delayed but is arguing it could start earlier than November."

 

[browncow]

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...-4MaZ16Of2356HEM6iJmmCs7RuGi_dSVz-s5UmYblk8kc

The man accused of being the Claremont serial killer has asked for male police who attended the crime scene of Ciara Glennon's body, and men who performed her autopsy, to be DNA tested.
It comes after it was revealed the state prosecution will allege Bradley Robert Edwards' DNA was found underneath the murdered 27-year-old's fingernails when her body was discovered in bushland in 1997.

 

[Kurve]

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...-4MaZ16Of2356HEM6iJmmCs7RuGi_dSVz-s5UmYblk8kc

The man accused of being the Claremont serial killer has asked for male police who attended the crime scene of Ciara Glennon's body, and men who performed her autopsy, to be DNA tested.
It comes after it was revealed the state prosecution will allege Bradley Robert Edwards' DNA was found underneath the murdered 27-year-old's fingernails when her body was discovered in bushland in 1997.

Thanks for this link, very interesting. The defence will be strongly challenging the integrity of the DNA evidence.

We've also found the item of clothing causing the delays, is trousers.

Meanwhile, the state prosecution has submitted late potential evidence that relates to Telstra trousers worn by employees in the 1990s.

The trousers are being tested, and clothing manufacturing companies contacted, to determine if the trouser fibres match fibres found in relation to Jane Rimmer, Ciara Glennon and the Karrakatta rape victim's matters.

The similarity between the fibres found on the three alleged victims was discovered in 2014.

The Telstra work trousers will also be compared to evidence found in a work vehicle Mr Edwards drove in the 1990s located by WA Police in 2017.

 

[petedavo]

https://www.watoday.com.au/national...-4MaZ16Of2356HEM6iJmmCs7RuGi_dSVz-s5UmYblk8kc

The man accused of being the Claremont serial killer has asked for male police who attended the crime scene of Ciara Glennon's body, and men who performed her autopsy, to be DNA tested.
It comes after it was revealed the state prosecution will allege Bradley Robert Edwards' DNA was found underneath the murdered 27-year-old's fingernails when her body was discovered in bushland in 1997.

Only surprise there is that Yovich isn't asking for everyone who might've handled the exhibit, including everyone that's ever had access to the exhibit over the 30 years.

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

 

[Sorbet Bliss]

Claremont serial killer trial delayed by four months after new clothing evidence emerges
By Andrea Mayes
Posted 2 hours ago, updated43 minutes ago


https://www.google.com.au/amp/amp.abc.net.au/article/11184628




Fibre evidence common to three women

"Justice Stephen Hall said today the prosecution had listed 39 items of "outstanding disclosure" to the court covering five separate categories — items that it had yet to reveal to the defence team."
These included items relating to fibre evidence, DNA evidence, other forensic evidence, taxi evidence and other general evidence.
Ms Barbagallo said a preliminary report on the fibre evidence had isolated common fibres from a Telstra work vehicle that had been found on the bodies of Ms Glennon, Ms Rimmer and another woman."


"The court heard one of the issues to be raised at trial was the potential contamination of DNA evidence taken from Ms Glennon's fingernails.
Ms Barbagallo said DNA evidence had been taken from those attending the bush scene where her body was found, as well as from those present at the post mortem examination, and expert reports were being prepared."

 

[SimonSays77]

some stink of fear at the moment

 

[BlueE]

Thanks for this link, very interesting. The defence will be strongly challenging the integrity of the DNA evidence.

We've also found the item of clothing causing the delays, is trousers.

Meanwhile, the state prosecution has submitted late potential evidence that relates to Telstra trousers worn by employees in the 1990s.

The trousers are being tested, and clothing manufacturing companies contacted, to determine if the trouser fibres match fibres found in relation to Jane Rimmer, Ciara Glennon and the Karrakatta rape victim's matters.

The similarity between the fibres found on the three alleged victims was discovered in 2014.

The Telstra work trousers will also be compared to evidence found in a work vehicle Mr Edwards drove in the 1990s located by WA Police in 2017.

So are they suggesting that the accused committed the murders in his work clothes? Or do they have premliminary results and they're not to the prosecution's liking and the wait is for something mor favbourable to be returned?

Either way an attempt to delay trial has succeeded.

I'd be looking more closely at the delay in DNA evidence reports I pointed out previously as reason why prosecution want to delay the trial. Just a basic look at how this DNA was not found initially, lost, transferred to the wrong lab etc shows that it could be successfully challenged.

However the defence need to get the DNA disclosure first and the prosecution taking 2 and a half years and still don't have their report finished as previously reported in the Post in April (CSK media thread). All very convenient and doesn't suggest much confidence by the prosecution.

I keep my mind open to Circus's suggestion and hope the accused stays safe until trial.

 

[BlueE]

Only surprise there is that Yovich isn't asking for everyone who might've handled the exhibit, including everyone that's ever had access to the exhibit over the 30 years.

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

They have also asked for those that performed the post mortem, so also include the others.

Be a worry if some of those cops at the initial crime scene had DNA connected to other crimes

 

[petedavo]

They have also asked for those that performed the post mortem, so also include the others.

Be a worry if some of those cops at the initial crime scene had DNA connected to other crimes

The news articles are a bit thin on facts. Probably best to wait till the trial.

Sent from my HTC 2PQ910 using Tapatalk

 

[Kurve]

.

They have also asked for those that performed the post mortem, so also include the others.

Be a worry if some of those cops at the initial crime scene had DNA connected to other crimes

Fishing expedition maybe. I'm not familiar with what the lab is obliged to present outside of the alleged's DNA found on Ciara but she'd had a full day presumably in the same suit and been at the pub, probably in and out of the loo a couple of times there could be more than one unknown male profile on her clothes and even on her body.

 

[Kurve]

So are they suggesting that the accused committed the murders in his work clothes? Or do they have premliminary results and they're not to the prosecution's liking and the wait is for something mor favbourable to be returned?

Either way an attempt to delay trial has succeeded.

I think the delay suits both the prosecution and the defence. Yovich said early in the proceedings he wouldn't be ready before November of this year iirc.