Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates

[metic]

A quick comment on the Glennon murder.

On the night she was taken Edwards was scheduled to have attended a party at a friend's holiday home in Dawesville.

He didn't turn up as expected, but arrived late "midway through the next morning" and told his hosts he'd spent the evening reconciling with his wife.

Glennon was last seen just after midnight on Stirling Highway talking to a man in a white VS Commodore.

What time did he arrive at the Dawesville house? Because Claremont to Eglinton is comfortably an hour in 1996 and Eglinton to Dawesville is an easy two hours.

If "midway through the next morning" means mid-morning (9-10am) then it checks out, but if it means 3-4am then he's absolutely on a mission to get to Dawesville (a million miles from Eglinton) for some sort of alibi.

I feel like the far northern dump site was chosen because it's so far distant from the alibi location.

And also the question did he have a scratch on his face ?
Or any marks to be seen on his body ?

 

[Eaglette01]

And also the question did he have a scratch on his face ?
Or any marks to be seen on his body ?

or, was he wearing a long sleeved shirt when it was 36c in the shade ?
aka inappropriate clothing - concealing CG's "fight back" and what a convincing liar he must have been "I've had a terrible night with the Ex" gleaning sympathy votes from his mates.

Oh what a fight Miss Glennon must have put up tiny petite woman against a 6ft monster. All the women were petite

 

[Willow weeps]

With the way & quickness BRE's lawyer wrapped up his opening statements, I'd say it's not looking good for Brad. That was my first thought when I read the liveblog

 

[sprockets]

or, was he wearing a long sleeved shirt when it was 36c in the shade ?
aka inappropriate clothing - concealing CG's "fight back" and what a convincing liar he must have been "I've had a terrible night with the Ex" gleaning sympathy votes from his mates.

Oh what a fight Miss Glennon must have put up tiny petite woman against a 6ft monster. All the women were petite

'Real men' didn't wear short sleeved shirts when they left the house... That's what my fashion (over)conscious mates at the time would tell you.

 

[FTY1]

A couple of things stood out for me about the Macro investigation of the CSK and the KK rape incident.

Even though the KK victim had a full forensic rape kit taken at the time in 1995, in 1997 about a year later she was asked to provide another vaginal sample. Somewhere else it was reported that the KK victim's shorts were forensically tested in 1997, with tape removing fibres from the shorts.

This indicates (along with Macro going door to door and finding the victims drivers license had been found) that the early Macro investigations in 1997 was concentrating on a possible connection with KK incident and the CSK.

They may have hit a brick wall with no DNA from the CSK victims to compare the KK case to, but was there any connection to this incident being shelved and Ferguson being removed from being in charge of Macro with Kporn being appointed?

watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/claremont-killer-trial-live-bradley-edwards-stands-trial-accused-of-historical-murders-20191121-p53cta.html

The rape victim, distraught, went to nearby Hollywood Hospital with her hands still bound and banged on the front doors of the hospital around 5:40am.
She was extremely distressed and crying.
A rape kit took intimate swabs from the teenager, and her clothes were taken for forensic analysis.
Almost a year after the rape, a forensic scientist obtained a vaginal swab from the teenager and separated the sperm cells from everything else, to which two extracts were taken and stored in a freezer for later analysis.
Primitive geno-typing tests carried out on both extracts revealed a cell profile that became known as 'unknown male 4'.

There was a DNA machine bought as part of the Secure Communities? Foundation that was set up with money from the Lawfirm Blake Dawson Waldron where Ciara worked and money from Denis Glennon and some associates. The timing may be related to getting the DNA analyser.

 

[Likeamystery]

Eaglette,

Many thanks for the court feedback. It's much appreciated!

 

[BlueE]

Verbatim: Yovich:

2 minutes ago
Defence (sic) opening
emily.moulton
Mr Edwards' lawyer Paul Yovich is now on his feet.
Mr Yovich has told Justice Hall that the defence will not be suggesting any of the deaths were unlawful.
He said to prove its case, the state relies on DNA evidence and propensity.
He said in relation to the DNA, the only conclusion the state says in terms of how Mr Edwards' DNA came to be found on Ms Glennon, was from a struggle at the time of her death.
He said if Justice Hall is not satisfied Mr Edwards' DNA was found on Ms Glennon during the struggle then he could not convict his client of Ms Rimmer or Ms Spiers murders.
"You will have to consider what they were at the time of testing," Mr Yovich said.
He told the court the fingernail scrapings described by the State were not fingernail scrapings but fingernail clippings, adding the post-mortem video shows a mortician clipping the left thumbnail and that they had difficulty with that nail.
Mr Yovich said PathWest tested that material from Ms Glennon's thumbnail many times and found it was just debris and not suitable for testing.
He said the state says that sample was then sent to the UK, at an accredited lab, to test it, as well as two other samples.
When it got to UK lab, the scientist said it contained a male profile.
Mr Yovich said the defence accepted that a mixed profile was found and that the likelihood that match was with the accused was very low.
But he said the UK scientist stopped short of saying it was Mr Edwards. Nor did they say how it got there or what kind of material it was.
"So the DNA evidence which the state relies on is trace DNA," he said. "It was collected and stored in the 1990s when the protocols in handling DNA was less sophisticated."
Mr Yovich then revealed intimate swabs taken from Ms Rimmer and Ms Glennon in 2017 had no result but matched with samples analysed with another PathWest scientist.
He said fingernail samples from Ms Rimmer tested in 2017 were also found to have a mixed DNA profile, with a minor component consistent with a male PathWest scientist.
When PathWest investigated this, Mr Yovich said, the internal report found the layout of the processing of the area allowed possible contamination.
He also said in 2002 a swab of a branch found a partial profile of a victim of a different crime. PathWest reached the conclusion it had no evidentiary value.
In each case the PathWest scientist would say they followed the correct procedure, he said.
Mr Yovich said Mr Edwards does not have an explanation as to how his DNA came to be in a sample taken from Ms Glennon's fingernails.
He said the defence accepted a chance finding was unlikely and that the chance of contamination was remote.
However, Mr Yovich said Justice Hall would have to decide "whether it can be safely ruled out".
Referring to fibre evidence, Mr Yovich said he was still waiting for disclosure from the prosecution so he would keep his comments "general".
Mr Yovich said the defence would focus on the "uniqueness or otherwise" of the findings, and whether the fibre can be "safely" said that it came from the source that is alleged.
Continuity of the evidence would be a live issue in the trial, he said.
Mr Yovich added the activities of the victims on the nights of their deaths would also be important.
He said there was evidence Ms Glennon threw her jacket on the ground on the night she vanished, before her friend picked it up and wore it for about 20 minutes.
The handling of the exhibits were also not satisfactory, Mr Yovich said.
He said he would question "how many fibres constitute a significant number" as well as how many were chosen for examination to support the State's case, instead of those that had no relevance or "contradict" it's case.
Speaking to propensity evidence, which includes the "Telstra living witness evidence", saying the State has not sought to adduce evidence from the operation that had nothing to do with a Telstra or communications worker.
Mr Yovich said the evidence does "not take its case anywhere at all".
He said there was a "very real doubt" that any of the incidents involved the accused, and said there was "no logical explanation as to why this incident necessarily involved a murderer".
"We say the Telstra living witness evidence does not have any discerning power in distinguishing the accused as the offender," he said.
"Rather than strengthening the case against the accused, the defence position is that it proves nothing against him."
Mr Yovich said the "nice neat picture" the prosecution wants to present against Mr Edwards was "not the full picture".
"And the full picture is the one you need to consider. It's not as streamlined as the State would have you believe," he said.
"Our position is that none of this evidence, taken alone or in combination, proves that the accused was responsible for any of these crimes, let alone all of them."
Mr Yovich finished by saying the evidence would lead to more questions, rather than answer them.
Mr Yovich has completed his opening statement.
Court has adjourned for the day.
Proceedings are expected to return at 10am tomorrow.

IMO - short and questionable; it would be ludicrous to put BRE on the stand

Got a video of the mortiton clipping the left thumbnail that was sent to England with some difficulty getting it off.

No DNA found before 2009, just debris found under the nails that samples were taken from didn't yield DNA. Not all the samples were tested.

When they did test the two clippings in England and a mixed profile with a male profile was found. Yovich is saying this is trace DNA and gives three example of contamination in the CSK case with separate PathWest scientists and one of another crime altogether in the lab.

He told the court the fingernail scrapings described by the State were not fingernail scrapings but fingernail clippings, adding the post-mortem video shows a mortician clipping the left thumbnail and that they had difficulty with that nail.

Mr Yovich said PathWest tested that material from Ms Glennon's thumbnail many times and found it was just debris and not suitable for testing.

He said the state says that sample was then sent to the UK, at an accredited lab, to test it, as well as two other samples. When it got to UK lab, the scientist said it contained a male profile.

Mr Yovich said the defence accepted that a mixed profile was found and that the likelihood that match was with the accused was very low.

But he said the UK scientist stopped short of saying it was Mr Edwards. Nor did they say how it got there or what kind of material it was. "So the DNA evidence which the state relies on is trace DNA," he said. "It was collected and stored in the 1990s when the protocols in handling DNA was less sophisticated."

Mr Yovich then revealed intimate swabs taken from Ms Rimmer and Ms Glennon in 2017 had no result but matched with samples analysed with another PathWest scientist.

He said fingernail samples from Ms Rimmer tested in 2017 were also found to have a mixed DNA profile, with a minor component consistent with a male PathWest scientist.

When PathWest investigated this, Mr Yovich said, the internal report found the layout of the processing of the area allowed possible contamination.

He also said in 2002 a swab of a branch found a partial profile of a victim of a different crime. PathWest reached the conclusion it had no evidentiary value.
In each case the PathWest scientist would say they followed the correct procedure, he said.

 

[FeelingThroaty]

I do see a sense of Sarah's family feeling somewhat cheated at the end of the trial & I would not blame them. As horrible as it is for the other families, at least they got to bury their girls

Then we have to find SS for the family.

 

[Krusty Crab]

A couple of things stood out for me about the Macro investigation of the CSK and the KK rape incident.

Even though the KK victim had a full forensic rape kit taken at the time in 1995, in 1997 about a year later she was asked to provide another vaginal sample. Somewhere else it was reported that the KK victim's shorts were forensically tested in 1997, with tape removing fibres from the shorts.

This indicates (along with Macro going door to door and finding the victims drivers license had been found) that the early Macro investigations in 1997 was concentrating on a possible connection with KK incident and the CSK.

They may have hit a brick wall with no DNA from the CSK victims to compare the KK case to, but was there any connection to this incident being shelved and Ferguson being removed from being in charge of Macro with Kporn being appointed?

watoday.com.au/national/western-australia/claremont-killer-trial-live-bradley-edwards-stands-trial-accused-of-historical-murders-20191121-p53cta.html

The rape victim, distraught, went to nearby Hollywood Hospital with her hands still bound and banged on the front doors of the hospital around 5:40am.
She was extremely distressed and crying.
A rape kit took intimate swabs from the teenager, and her clothes were taken for forensic analysis.
Almost a year after the rape, a forensic scientist obtained a vaginal swab from the teenager and separated the sperm cells from everything else, to which two extracts were taken and stored in a freezer for later analysis.
Primitive geno-typing tests carried out on both extracts revealed a cell profile that became known as 'unknown male 4'.

so a second vaginal sample was taken to eliminate 'background noise' on the dna research. nothing to say it was macro that asked for this to be done, it could of been the detective investigating the original case, and it just became handy to macro investigators later on. if the macro investigators were looking for a link at this time, they either:
a - got a match on fibres and concluded there was a link
b - had limitations in science that couldn't answer conclusively if they were linked
c - progressed this theory and got a match that they then sat on till it was announced as a DNA match circa 2008
d - progressed this theory until the dumping of ferguson for David 'we have our man even though hes not our man' Caporn, and this theory was abandoned.

im more inclined to believe it wasnt macro related originally, because if option A or B happened it would of been in the media. Option C sounds unlikely that they would then go no where after those number of years, especially without checking further back for crimes like HH. option D is unthinkable and would really show incompetence of Caporn if he dumped a potential lead because he had his LW blinkers on.

 

[FeelingThroaty]

no talk of Mystery Man in opening day........

If the mystery man is is BRE then it might come out when they go over the JR part in the trial. On the video the guy did limp a little. could be BRE.

 

[kingswood71]

so a second vaginal sample was taken to eliminate 'background noise' on the dna research. nothing to say it was macro that asked for this to be done, it could of been the detective investigating the original case, and it just became handy to macro investigators later on. if the macro investigators were looking for a link at this time, they either:
a - got a match on fibres and concluded there was a link
b - had limitations in science that couldn't answer conclusively if they were linked
c - progressed this theory and got a match that they then sat on till it was announced as a DNA match circa 2008
d - progressed this theory until the dumping of ferguson for David 'we have our man even though hes not our man' Caporn, and this theory was abandoned.

im more inclined to believe it wasnt macro related originally, because if option A or B happened it would of been in the media. Option C sounds unlikely that they would then go no where after those number of years, especially without checking further back for crimes like HH. option D is unthinkable and would really show incompetence of Caporn if he dumped a potential lead because he had his LW blinkers on.

"Almost a year after the rape, a forensic scientist obtained a vaginal swab from the teenager and separated the sperm cells from everything else, to which two extracts were taken and stored in a freezer for later analysis."....
This line is an error...there is no way they would have re-swabbed 12 months later and there is no way sperm from an assailant would still be there!!

 

[metic]

"Almost a year after the rape, a forensic scientist obtained a vaginal swab from the teenager and separated the sperm cells from everything else, to which two extracts were taken and stored in a freezer for later analysis."....
This line is an error...there is no way they would have re-swabbed 12 months later and there is no way sperm from an assailant would still be there!!

Haha.
Have you got a link for that quote?

 

[yodellinhank]

I think only the clothing she was wearing was published in the paper. It suggests that the watch wasn't expensive or distinctive, but in hindsight wold have been useful to publish all of her possessions.

They've published the clothing to see if any witnesses come forward with last sightings. Unlikely people are going to remember "the girl who wore that watch" if they can't remember the clothes. Yet a watch taken as a trophy could implicate a future suspect if found in a search on their house.

 

[Krusty Crab]

"Mr Edwards was not identified on the CCTV on any of the nights the women went missing " Ms Barbagallo

So he aint mystery man!

incorrect reasoning. bre wasnt identified, so all that tells you is he wasnt one of the people that were identified. BRE could of been anyone on the CCTV that wasnt identified, which includes MM

 

[kingswood71]

Haha.
Have you got a link for that quote?

Not me personally, but its been posted here earlier Its from a transcript. And its wrong....
Edit: It was here https://www.watoday.com.au/national...ed-of-historical-murders-20191121-p53cta.html

 

[kingswood71]

He told the court the fingernail scrapings described by the State were not fingernail scrapings but fingernail clippings, adding the post-mortem video shows a mortician clipping the left thumbnail and that they had difficulty with that nail.
Mr Yovich said PathWest tested that material from Ms Glennon's thumbnail many times and found it was just debris and not suitable for testing.

Prosecutor said yesterday "One of the key samples the state will rely on at trial, taken from under Ciara's left thumbnail, had remained unopened in a sealed yellow top container since 1997 until examined by a lab in the U.K." https://www.watoday.com.au/national...ed-of-historical-murders-20191121-p53cta.html

So maybe pathwest had not tested that thumbnail at all....

 

[Likeamystery]

He also said in 2002 a swab of a branch found a partial profile of a victim of a different crime. PathWest reached the conclusion it had no evidentiary value.
In each case the PathWest scientist would say they followed the correct procedure, he said.

Could this mean that the branch had been covering another dead person? Was the branch retrieve from another victim's grave. Surly it can't be JRs DNA because that would have tied the two crime-scene's together. This is so eerie.

It didn't have any evidentiary value. They stated another victim not just another person. What do other people think of this?

 

[Isabelle]

Time for a poll thread?

Will BRE

Be Found guilty of all charges
Be Found innocent of all charges
Case dismissed on a technicality
Hung jury

Patsy

I think he’ll be found guilty on 2. Maybe not on SS. IF that’s an option. Hopefully with the other charges he’ll be locked up for the rest of his life.

 

[BFew]

Where/how the accused met his 2nd wife April fools day 1997 was revealed today in court (but not in the watoday or West's live blogs)

How life of rejection made an alleged serial killer

The prosecution revealed more details about the heartbreak and rocky relationships in Bradley Robert Edwards’ life in court today, arguing it was this emotional turmoil that motivated him to kill.

thewest.com.au

on April 1, 1997 — two days before Ms Glennon’s body was found — he met the woman who became his second wife while undertaking work on a phone at her workplace.

 

[BFew]

And in the West tonight (same article as above post) the 2nd wife separated from the accused in some way, 17 months before BRE was arrested.

Despite the marriage breaking down in July 2015, Mr Edwards’ stepdaughter continued to live with him until detectives stormed his home.

 

[Krusty Crab]

"Almost a year after the rape, a forensic scientist obtained a vaginal swab from the teenager and separated the sperm cells from everything else, to which two extracts were taken and stored in a freezer for later analysis."....
This line is an error...there is no way they would have re-swabbed 12 months later and there is no way sperm from an assailant would still be there!!

i didnt say there would be sperm still there. you have the original swab with a mixture of the victims cells and the attackers sperm. a second swab taken a year later provides a sample simply of the victims cells. comparing the two eliminates the victims cells on the first swab, and separates out the cells from the attacker. DNA in those times wasnt what it is today, this could of been a way for the lab to deal with a mixed sample.

 

[Isabelle]

How can DNA found on a branch be related to another crime?
it worries me if blunders are popping up with Pathwests testing he could get off on a technicality.
also some DNA from a lab tech???

 

[GreyCrow]

Could this mean that the branch had been covering another dead person? Was the branch retrieve from another victim's grave. Surly it can't be JRs DNA because that would have tied the two crime-scene's together. This is so eerie.

It didn't have any evidentiary value. They stated another victim not just another person. What do other people think of this?

I hope they expand on this

I also read it earlier and had a wtf moment

 

[GreyCrow]

Where/how the accused met his 2nd wife April fools day 1997 was revealed today in court (but not in the watoday or West's live blogs)

How life of rejection made an alleged serial killer

The prosecution revealed more details about the heartbreak and rocky relationships in Bradley Robert Edwards’ life in court today, arguing it was this emotional turmoil that motivated him to kill.

thewest.com.au

Maybe she liked being grabbed from behind and - nah best not

 

[Willow weeps]

majority of us can't read it as none of us want to pay for it. Anyone else catch on yesterday when it was said BRE was "relieved his r/s was ending in divorce yet again" & wonder if he was only relieved because he was getting that bloodthirst back into him