Current Claremont Murders Discussion & Edwards trial updates

[one eyed spy]

It just occured to me that the fibre evidence the prosecution intended to have admitted after the line was drawn were advised to the court prior to the application to have them admitted anyway. I wonder if Yovich forgot or perhaps thought the ship had sailed as he knew the judge was adverse to any further delays. Maybe he figured wrongly that it wouldn't be allowed just prior to trial and went ahead with the plea change.

 

[kingswood71]

Oh he was blindsided badly by the judge in allowing the evidence to the Telstra clothing specifically to be allowed after the deadline. They thought they were home and probably would have been, hence a guilty plea 5 mins before she slammed them with the application to admit late evidence. Thats why Yovich objected saying "they're changing the evidence".

Wasnt the evidence related to the examination of the uniforms disclosed by 30 July 2019?
The only evidence admitted after that was mostly related to proofing of statements and reports. "Although the number of witnesses referred to in the applications may appear to be large, when examined in detail the evidence encompassed by the applications is not substantial. Much of the evidence in Group B is information which merely clarifies or provides further detail of existing statements and falls within the proofing exception. As such, leave is not required in respect of that evidence. In any event, that evidence, in my view, is not productive of material unfairness to the defence." (2019WASC405).
"hence a guilty plea 5 mins before she slammed them with the application to admit late evidence"......It also says "On 2 October 2019 the State filed applications in accordance with the order seeking leave to adduce evidence that had been disclosed since 30 July 2019." Now the defense would have been served with this application, yet still went into the Oct hearing and changed the plea. So the application to adduce evidence was prior to the defence guilty plea.

 

[dmorris30]

The DNA is pretty much a given unless Yovich can pull a rabbit out of the hat and claim cross-contamination. On all I've seen this will not be possible.

The fibres are to link the Rimmer and Glennon cases.

So the only thing to watch for is the fibre evidence. I think it's certain that the Glennon charge will be proved. Very likely the Rimmer charge. And following up a conviction on the Spiers charge - assuming he doesn't confess after being convicted on Glennon / and Rimmer.

I read somewhere that Yovich is going to say that the cross contamination of the DNA occurred with the isolated DNA of BRE's sperm from KK which wouldn't show hers but thanks to Kingswood we know that skin DNA and sperm DNA are different.

 

[JezzaPerth]

I read somewhere that Yovich is going to say that the cross contamination of the DNA occurred with the isolated DNA of BRE's sperm from KK which wouldn't show hers but thanks to Kingswood we know that skin DNA and sperm DNA are different.

I have read about DNA mutations in sperm and wondered if specific mutations could be shown to be present in the CG and KK samples hence cross contamination. However on refection there would be germ line mutations that are always present so not much use to show cross contamination. The alternative of individual cells getting mutated would not be much use as either the cell is transferred or not.

There is perhaps some area of the DNA amplification process that might apply?

 

[Kurve]

While we wait has anybody picked up on what might be a point of appeal yet?

Best not say what it might be yet though, we have some very savvy contributors in here and we can be pretty sure there are eyes on this thread.

 

[BonzaRam]

While we wait has anybody picked up on what might be a point of appeal yet?

Best not say what it might be yet though, we have some very savvy contributors in here and we can be pretty sure there are eyes on this thread.

I can see just one avenue to appeal so far but it is not very strong, won't say what it is but will say i think that particular avenue of appeal has been in the works since the trial started and built upon a couple of times throughout the trial, but then it was rebuffed a couples of times also.

 

[Kurve]

Trial Day 33.

Claremont serial killings trial live blog day 33

We are back live blogging WA's trial of the century involving alleged triple murderer Bradley Robert Edwards accused of killing Ciara Glennon, Sarah Spiers and Jane Rimmer

live.24liveblog.com

 

[Kurve]

Forensic pathologist Dr Clive Cooke will be back in the witness box this morning.
Dr Cooke will be going through the post-mortems of Jane Rimmer and Ciara Glennon.

 

[trawlerman]

I can see just one avenue to appeal so far but it is not very strong, won't say what it is but will say i think that particular avenue of appeal has been in the works since the trial started and built upon a couple of times throughout the trial, but then it was rebuffed a couples of times also.

If he's found not guilty, the prosecution can also appeal.
The weight of any conviction will be placed on BRE's DNA being found in two crimes he's admitted to and a third that he should admit to.
Carmel's long drawn out court case I believe is designed so that avenues of the defence appealing are pretty well zero and if they do it will just be Yovich trying to suck every last dollar that he can get out of the case.

 

[trawlerman]

In total he has made 31 admissions

One more admission to the inevitable result of the charges and it would save everyone a lot of time and trouble.

 

[JezzaPerth]

One more admission to the inevitable result of the charges and it would save everyone a lot of time and trouble.

Yovich knows within a fraction of a percent what the prosecution case is. He has a copy of the paginated brief which is all the evidence available to the prosecution. His only problem is working out what small fraction of the PB will actually be lead - hence his complaints about witness lists.

Given he has the PB and given he has outlined the defence case he will have calculated further admissions are not required. Not that he thinks he has a secret ace up his sleeve, but admissions make the prosecution's case easier.

The guilty pleas about KK was for three intertwined reasons. First Yovich knew he would lose on those charges. Second, contesting the charges would probably produce more damning witness evidence - increasing the potential penalty and affecting the murder charges. Third, knowing he would lose he chose to plead guilty 'early' so that would be taken into account in sentencing. (though he could have pleaded guilty much earlier and that will be taken into account)

The only items in doubt at the moment are some witnesses testifying off-piste and causing confusion to either defence, or prosecution, or both. You've seen vague hints of that when witnesses are quickly shut up if they stray into inadmissible evidence. Potentially some pathologist evidence could upset things a bit.

 

[BonzaRam]

If he's found not guilty, the prosecution can also appeal.
The weight of any conviction will be placed on BRE's DNA being found in two crimes he's admitted to and a third that he should admit to.
Carmel's long drawn out court case I believe is designed so that avenues of the defence appealing are pretty well zero and if they do it will just be Yovich trying to suck every last dollar that he can get out of the case.

If found guilty the prosecution can also appeal the sentence if they think it is too lenient.

For the defense to appeal a conviction they need to show that the trial was unfair or the verdict a miscarriage of justice. Seen as we are nowhere near a verdict yet there is only an unfair trial possibility at the moment.

 

[Kurve]

Slightly confused about this, does it mean Jane's lung/s were pierced or not? Assume we'll hear if there's evidence of any damage to bone that might be caused by a knife.

The court heard the 23-year-old's lungs were badly decomposed and that Dr Karin Margolius's report found red blood cells in her bronchi.
Dr Cooke said he could not be satisfied what was seen in bronchi was red blood cells.
But he said as long as there was penetration of the main airway, it was aspirate blood into main bronchi.

 

[Mudman85]

I have read about DNA mutations in sperm and wondered if specific mutations could be shown to be present in the CG and KK samples hence cross contamination. However on refection there would be germ line mutations that are always present so not much use to show cross contamination. The alternative of individual cells getting mutated would not be much use as either the cell is transferred or not.

There is perhaps some area of the DNA amplification process that might apply?

My question around the DNA has always been how perfect is the match to BRE. The prosecution expert will say it’s a home run, the defence will try and cast doubt and say it’s likley but not guaranteed. Obviously I’m not a DNA expert but Given we have heard how badly decomposed the bodies where, it makes me wonder how a microscopic skin/sperm/saliva/whatever cell can survive in the same conditions that is deteriorating whole limbs and organs. I would have thought that it would be the first to break down.

 

[kingswood71]

Slightly confused about this, does it mean Jane's lung/s were pierced or not? Assume we'll hear if there's evidence of any damage to bone that might be caused by a knife.

The court heard the 23-year-old's lungs were badly decomposed and that Dr Karin Margolius's report found red blood cells in her bronchi.
Dr Cooke said he could not be satisfied what was seen in bronchi was red blood cells.
But he said as long as there was penetration of the main airway, it was aspirate blood into main bronchi.

I think he is saying that if an artery was penetrated, she may had aspirated (breathed in) red blood cells.

 

[kingswood71]

My question around the DNA has always been how perfect is the match to BRE. The prosecution expert will say it’s a home run, the defence will try and cast doubt and say it’s likley but not guaranteed. Obviously I’m not a DNA expert but Given we have heard how badly decomposed the bodies where, it makes me wonder how a microscopic skin/sperm/saliva/whatever cell can survive in the same conditions that is deteriorating whole limbs and organs. I would have thought that it would be the first to break down.

I thought the defence was agreeing that its a match.

 

[zedx]

Slightly confused about this, does it mean Jane's lung/s were pierced or not? Assume we'll hear if there's evidence of any damage to bone that might be caused by a knife.

The court heard the 23-year-old's lungs were badly decomposed and that Dr Karin Margolius's report found red blood cells in her bronchi.
Dr Cooke said he could not be satisfied what was seen in bronchi was red blood cells.
But he said as long as there was penetration of the main airway, it was aspirate blood into main bronchi.

'bronchi are extensions of the windpipe that shuttle air to and from the lungs' my understanding of this is that there should have been no red blood cells present in the bronchi, as this is a 'air way'. But as there was penetration of the air way (throat cut) her last breathes could of 'inhaled blood from the penetration' proving she was alive at the time her throat was cut and this may have been cause of death?? JMHO from google info

 

[kingswood71]

"The trial heard earlier the only part of Ciara's neck skin that was still in tact was a 7cm section on her left side."
That might fit with a left handed assailant cutting from behind, right to left.

 

[trawlerman]

The guilty pleas about KK was for three intertwined reasons.

BRE also pleaded guilty because his DNA was found on the KK victim and he's now using that to pretend his sample of DNA accidentally got mixed up with CG.
But many of us are now aware contamination cannot be used as a successful defence in this instance.

The only items in doubt at the moment are some witnesses testifying off-piste

Yovich should not be hoping the case will be aborted when that happens.
Judge Hall can simply disregard anything off piste that he hears and I'm sure he's done that on occasions already in this trial.

If Yovich wants to give BRE advice, then he should tell him to man up, plead guilty and take the cops to SS. It would probably be a huge weight off BRE's mind because a confession would be a rare thing once he's jailed for life. After he confesses he could talk about what he did and get help, instead of having it bottled up inside him. Yovich is not doing him any favours by just prolonging the inevitable.

 

[dmorris30]

My question around the DNA has always been how perfect is the match to BRE. The prosecution expert will say it’s a home run, the defence will try and cast doubt and say it’s likley but not guaranteed. Obviously I’m not a DNA expert but Given we have heard how badly decomposed the bodies where, it makes me wonder how a microscopic skin/sperm/saliva/whatever cell can survive in the same conditions that is deteriorating whole limbs and organs. I would have thought that it would be the first to break down.

Ciara's body was pretty mummified which helped preserve DNA. Also, the DNA was found under her fingernails so was out of the elements. No animals chewed on her fingers and the DNA was tucked right up under her nail and skin. I read somewhere that the DNA match was something like 5 billion to one. The DNA is his.

 

[JezzaPerth]

"As the footage is being played Mr Edwards has been going through his notes, looking at his hands as well as using his right arm and hand to rest his head."

Checking notes for his forthcoming book "If I did it" ?

 

[sprockets]

"It indicates she was lying on her right side, with a pool (of blood) beneath her," he said.



When asked by Ms Barbagallo if the neck defect was caused by a cutting motion while Ciara was standing up, Dr Cooke said: "No, you would see vertical bleeding coming down."



This means Ciara Glennon was already on the ground when her throat was cut."


Sounds like as she was laying on her right side he's straddled her and basically tried to cut her head off with a lifting and slicing motion. Actually makes me want to beat the hell out of him even though we already knew her throat had been cut. Animal.

 

[JezzaPerth]

She was cut on her right side. Can't cut there if she's lying on it.

BRE is a south-paw. That could make it more likely she was face up and he stabbed her in the throat and then rolled her over to bleed out.. There was mention of v-shaped defects indicatng a stabbing motion rather than sawing or slicing

Edit: "Ciara was found lying face down, leaning slightly on her right side, with her right arm underneath her torso and her left arm stretched outward from her body, and her left leg slightly raised compared to her right leg."

This says to me that she was stabbed while face up and then rolled over onto her right arm using her left arm for leverage.

 

[dmorris30]

BRE is a south-paw. That could make it more likely she was face up and he stabbed her in the throat and then rolled her over to bleed out.. There was mention of v-shaped defects indicatng a stabbing motion rather than sawing or slicing

Edit: "Ciara was found lying face down, leaning slightly on her right side, with her right arm underneath her torso and her left arm stretched outward from her body, and her left leg slightly raised compared to her right leg."

This says to me that she was stabbed while face up and then rolled over onto her right arm using her left arm for leverage.

Yeah I think Ciara was face up and Jane face down. Or each girl was lying on a different side and he has hacked at what was exposed.

 

[metic]

Ciara's body was pretty mummified which helped preserve DNA. Also, the DNA was found under her fingernails so was out of the elements. No animals chewed on her fingers and the DNA was tucked right up under her nail and skin. I read somewhere that the DNA match was something like 5 billion to one. The DNA is his.

"The DNA is his."
Are you sure ?