Corey McGrath

[Effes]

Funny we don't hear about it publicly from delisted players at other clubs.

~zing!

 

[Effes]

http://talkingcarlton.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?p=433474#433474

 

[CattyBossDog]

Ahh, the guy was a choker, and a dud, in the worst Carlton team in history.

That's all I need to say.

 

[audas]

You seem to harp on and on and on about how it's not Denis' fault. Why can't I harp on and on and on about maybe, just maybe, he is a contributing factor?

And what exactly are the facts audas? NOBODY KNOWS WHAT THE FACTS ARE!!! You could be right, I could be right. WE DON'T KNOW!!! Until then, you are entitled to your opinion and I am entitled to mine! DEAL WITH IT. I have.

Apparently you cant. I DONT harp on about how its Denis is blameless, I point out the bleeding obvious, that, you cant make one person the scape goat while constantly ignoring mitigating circumstances. Your point about not knowing the facts is exactly my point. People are jumping on any half truth as cause celebre.
finally pointing out that we are both entitled out our opinions implies that I was questioning your right to do so, when in fact I never did that. It appears that you are on very shakey ground and the lack of adequate response, the futility, that you have nothing to say, is being misinterpreted as censorship, when in fact it is just the light of reality dawning on your mind.

 

[audas]

You really don't know much do you? Just another former player who's told it like it is about our coach. That's a few now. Must tell you something. How many more do you want it actually sinks in. Suppose they all got sour grapes! Of course he's lost the players, any dill knows that. Maybe your head's been buried in the sand so long you've missed something. Seems you simply live in denial and don't WANT to believe. Funny we don't hear about it publicly from delisted players at other clubs.

fft, another jimthegreat post.

 

[mediumsizered]

Russell. Thornton. Add De luca & French. Campo a year ago. Lappin almost. Is that enough?

Do you really think current players are going to go on record? They'd face pretty severe consequences. Like playing for the Bullants as may have happened to at least one player who might have expressed some private dissatisfaction.

Russell: Signed a 2 year contract, obviously in a hurry to return to Adelaide.
Thornton: His manager did a wonderful job of getting him the best deal possible. You don't sign up for 3 years if you hate the place.
DeLuca: Here we go. Supporters knock him all season & then when he chooses to quit the game (not move to another club), he is used as a shining example of players who allegedly hate Pagan. If it was just Pagan he hated, why did he not try & go to another club? He gave up his football career because of one coach out of 16 in the AFL? Give us a break.
French: Struggled all season. Saw time with the Bullants. Given he was only ever a good honest toiler, at 31 years of age the game was quickly passing him by.
Campo: Were you sorry to see him go? His carry on during the 2005 season was nothing but petulance. Are we worse off without him? I don't think so. Did he make a difference at Windy Hill? Well they did finish equal with us on points, so perhaps he succeeded in dragging them down to our level.
Matty Lappin: Another one that was dropped to the Bullants due to poor form in 2006. Actually should have been dropped in 2005, but Scotland got the chop instead. Whereas Scotland got the message & improved to become one of our top half a dozen players in 2006, Lappin continued to get around with a chip on his shoulder. Great example for the kids, Matty. That is the difference between a professional like a Bradley, Ratten or McKay. They continued to go about their business right up until their bodies could give no more. Lappin on the other hand is lucky the club showed some loyalty to him & didn't send him on his way like the Bombers did to Solomon & the Magpies to Tarrant.

 

[BlueWorld]

Well you can believe all that if you want.

This might be more like it:

Thornton- wanted a fresh start at another club. Asked to be traded to Hawthorn. Carlton refused to deal with Hawthorn & threatened to redraft him in the PSD. When he realised there was no hope of him getting to Hawthorn & that he was going to be redrafted by Carlton he agreed to stay.

Russell- very unhappy at Carlton & with lack of faith shown in him by Pagan. Requested to be traded to Port Adelaide. They offered us a few players they were about to delist. When he realised that Port rated him that lowly he agreed to stay.

French- did not get on with Pagan & could not stand another year with him. Said he was physically capable of continuing to play.

De Luca- constantly ridiculed by Pagan & did not want to continue at the club. Which other club was likely to pick him up? About as likely as McGrath, Sporn, Livo etc.

Lappin- poor form & dropped because he didn't get on with Pagan. Requested to be traded last year after we refused a 3 year deal but no interest from other clubs. Had no choice but to accept Carlton's 2 year offer. How much better did he play in the int rules under Sheedy?

Campo- similar to Lappin but was wanted by Essendon.

Oh & Bradley- refused to join in training every year until he got the deal he wanted. Wanted to keep going but guess who took over as coach. You can hang *** on Campo, Lappin etc but guys like Bradley taught them how to do it.

Ratten- would he have retired under those strange circumstances under a different coach? Would McKay have gone on another year after winning the B&F under a different coach?

 

[AlecDuncan]

When he realised there was no hope of him getting to Hawthorn & that he was going to be redrafted by Carlton he agreed to stay.

Why sign for three years instead of one? He's supposed to hate Pagan remember.

Russell- very unhappy at Carlton & with lack of faith shown in him by Pagan. Requested to be traded to Port Adelaide. They offered us a few players they were about to delist. When he realised that Port rated him that lowly he agreed to stay.

Why sign for two years instead of one? He's supposed to hate Pagan remember.

French- did not get on with Pagan & could not stand another year with him. Said he was physically capable of continuing to play.

I'll give you that one, although I'm not sure how strong his opinion on Pagan was. Interesting that he hasn't pulled on the boots again despite being "capable".

De Luca- constantly ridiculed by Pagan & did not want to continue at the club.

WTF? Was this the same Deluca that everyone thought was Pagan's love child? Was it the same Deluca that was universally ridiculed by Carlton supporters? Why didn't he continue his career elsewhere if it was just Pagan, if at all?

Lappin- poor form & dropped because he didn't get on with Pagan.

He had poor form, but was only dropped because he didn't get on with Pagan? What a joke. Lappin's form dropped away because the power had gone missing from his legs - he couldn't kick to save himself in 2006. Most likely some nagging injury.

Campo- similar to Lappin but was wanted by Essendon.

Not similar at all. Lappin wanted a better deal, Campo wanted out. There can be plenty of reasons besides Pagan for that, one of them being that he wanted to play finals for a successful club. And hasn't that worked out well for him?

 

[mediumsizered]

Well you can believe all that if you want.

This might be more like it:

Thornton- wanted a fresh start at another club. Asked to be traded to Hawthorn. Carlton refused to deal with Hawthorn & threatened to redraft him in the PSD. When he realised there was no hope of him getting to Hawthorn & that he was going to be redrafted by Carlton he agreed to stay.

Russell- very unhappy at Carlton & with lack of faith shown in him by Pagan. Requested to be traded to Port Adelaide. They offered us a few players they were about to delist. When he realised that Port rated him that lowly he agreed to stay.

French- did not get on with Pagan & could not stand another year with him. Said he was physically capable of continuing to play.

De Luca- constantly ridiculed by Pagan & did not want to continue at the club. Which other club was likely to pick him up? About as likely as McGrath, Sporn, Livo etc.

Lappin- poor form & dropped because he didn't get on with Pagan. Requested to be traded last year after we refused a 3 year deal but no interest from other clubs. Had no choice but to accept Carlton's 2 year offer. How much better did he play in the int rules under Sheedy?

Campo- similar to Lappin but was wanted by Essendon.

I stated at the time that Russell was seeking to be traded that he was overestimating his current value. The reason Russell has not had more opportunities at senior level is two-fold. Firstly, & most importantly, he has failed to seize the opportunities given to him at senior level. His best effort so far at senior level is 14 disposals & his pulling out of a contest (although he did redeem himself later in the same game) is the sort of stuff that not only sticks in the coach's mind but in the minds of supporters as well. Secondly, he has not taken VFL games by the scruff of the neck, when the selection committee have wanted him to put his hand up. You compare this to when Eddie Betts was dropped in 2005 & he came out with the Bullants & kicked 6 goals in a best on ground performance. I am confident that Russell will be a very good player in the long run, but he needs to be realistic about where he is at currently.

With respect to Lappin, how is it that experienced players like Fevola, Whitnall, Houlihan & Scotland can give of their best, as have less experienced players like Simpson, Murphy & Thornton, yet Lappin can not be professional enough to go out there & give his best? If he was really wanting to get away from Carlton, he would have been best advised to come out & have a very good season, so as to attract the interest of other AFL clubs. No self-respecting club is going to want to touch a player who demonstrates such petulance as he did when interviewed on SEN following the Bullants game at Werribee in 2006. FWIW, do you really think Lappin would be putting his hand up for the captaincy if he disliked Pagan that much? Club coaches & captains spend a fair bit of time in each other's company doing media commitments, AFL promotions etc. You would want to have some sort of mutual respect for this to work, because otherwise the media will sniff out any discontent.

As for De Luca. Given comments by posters on here & supporters at Carlton games alleging that De Luca must have been Pagan's love child to have received as many opportunities as he did, it would seem strange if De Luca was actually out of favor with Pagan. Certainly this is a funny way of showing it. Are you suggesting that the only reason that De Luca turned his back on footy for a normal career was due to some sort of dislike of Pagan? Nothing to do with wanting to get the most out of the career he has studied hard to pursue? Once again I must ask, why wouldn't he at least have nominated for the draft like Sporn & Livingstone did in the hope of being able to continue playing football. We all know he wouldn't have got drafted, but we also knew Sporn & Livingstone weren't going to get drafted either, but they obviously believed they were a chance.

 

[BlueWorld]

Why sign for three years instead of one? He's supposed to hate Pagan remember.

Why sign for two years instead of one? He's supposed to hate Pagan remember.

Pagan won't be coach in 3 years. Fair chance not in 2- may not last the year. If he does they can always ask to be traded again. A contract gives them the security of being entitled to the money- in Thornton's case $900 K.

WTF? Was this the same Deluca that everyone thought was Pagan's love child? Was it the same Deluca that was universally ridiculed by Carlton supporters? Why didn't he continue his career elsewhere if it was just Pagan, if at all?

Who says he was Pagan's love child. He was ridiculed by Pagan as well as supporters. Which club would have taken him?

He had poor form, but was only dropped because he didn't get on with Pagan? What a joke. Lappin's form dropped away because the power had gone missing from his legs - he couldn't kick to save himself in 2006. Most likely some nagging injury.

Looked OK in the int rules under Sheedy!

Not similar at all. Lappin wanted a better deal, Campo wanted out. There can be plenty of reasons besides Pagan for that, one of them being that he wanted to play finals for a successful club. And hasn't that worked out well for him?

Finals? Sure!!!!

 

[BlueWorld]

As for De Luca. Given comments by posters on here & supporters at Carlton games alleging that De Luca must have been Pagan's love child to have received as many opportunities as he did, it would seem strange if De Luca was actually out of favor with Pagan. Certainly this is a funny way of showing it. Are you suggesting that the only reason that De Luca turned his back on footy for a normal career was due to some sort of dislike of Pagan? Nothing to do with wanting to get the most out of the career he has studied hard to pursue? Once again I must ask, why wouldn't he at least have nominated for the draft like Sporn & Livingstone did in the hope of being able to continue playing football. We all know he wouldn't have got drafted, but we also knew Sporn & Livingstone weren't going to get drafted either, but they obviously believed they were a chance.

See above.

Yes.

He has another career path. I'm not aware Sporn & Livo do.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Who says he was Pagan's love child.

1
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It's not a rare sentiment.

 

[BlueBelle]

Apparently you cant. I DONT harp on about how its Denis is blameless, I point out the bleeding obvious, that, you cant make one person the scape goat while constantly ignoring mitigating circumstances. Your point about not knowing the facts is exactly my point. People are jumping on any half truth as cause celebre.
finally pointing out that we are both entitled out our opinions implies that I was questioning your right to do so, when in fact I never did that. It appears that you are on very shakey ground and the lack of adequate response, the futility, that you have nothing to say, is being misinterpreted as censorship, when in fact it is just the light of reality dawning on your mind.

I agree. It can't all be Denis' fault but it certainly can be a contributing factor. Why can't you acknowledge that, considering time and time again we have heard the same thing about him?

Really? You never questioned my right to an opinion?

Get a complete grasp on reality, it is the cattle on the track. That is the start of the story, the middle of the story and the end of it. ANY THING ELSE you decide to harp on, and on and friggin on about is merely YOUR OWN inability to comprehend the situation beyond the most blatant, skin deep, childish analysis

OK, maybe not directly MY right but you certainly questioned the right of ALL posters who believe Denis may be a contributing factor to the onfield issues when you said the issue is "the cattle on the track" and "that is the start of the story, the middle of the story and the end of it. ANY THING ELSE you decide to harp on, and on and friggin on about is merely YOUR OWN inability to comprehend the situation beyond the most blatant, skin deep, childish analysis."

Oh and I love this one!!!

It appears that you are on very shakey ground and the lack of adequate response, the futility, that you have nothing to say, is being misinterpreted as censorship, when in fact it is just the light of reality dawning on your mind.

Ah huh. The reality is that perhaps Denis is a contributing factor. If you would just open yourself up to that possibility instead of claiming that it is an "inability to comprehend the situation beyond the most blatant, skin deep, childish analysis."

If you want to analyse the situation properly then you would see that it's not only one person's comments now and although the comments have come from some who could be disgruntled, they're not exactly going to say stuff about the coach when they are both on the same payroll are they?

 

[verbs]

At the end of the day the Club is bigger than the individual. McGrath had to be let go for the benefit of the future of the Club, wheather he liked it or not. THe players won't be at the Club forever. The coach won't be at the Club forever. But whilst they are there, they have a job to do. If it is considered they aren't moving the Club forward they will be replaced, player or coach.

 

[BlueWorld]

1
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It's not a rare sentiment.

Well if 4 supporters who have no idea what goes on at the club and between Pagan & Deluca say so it must be that way.

 

[AlecDuncan]

Well if 4 supporters who have no idea what goes on at the club and between Pagan & Deluca say so it must be that way.

Well for a guy who was ridiculing DeLuca so often, he sure picked him for senior games on the back of ordinary VFL performances a lot. Not that actions speak louder than rumours in your universe.

 

[mediumsizered]

Well if 4 supporters who have no idea what goes on at the club and between Pagan & Deluca say so it must be that way.

Of those players who have openly criticised Pagan how many are on AFL lists for 2007? I will give you Chris Bryan & even Campo, who hasn't really said a lot but may do so after he is delisted by Essendon at the end of this year. Were either of these 2 a great loss? The common thread among those who have opened their mouths has been the limited opportunities afforded them at senior level. Yet other clubs have not been queueing up to take them on.

I find it hard to believe there are many players on our current list who really dislike Pagan. I draw this conclusion based on my 26 years in the workforce in which I have seen many people, with marketable skills, who don't like their managers seek alternative employment. Surely the same applies at the Carlton Football Club. You don't stay somewhere that you are not happy for any longer than you need to. Even though we may have had the #1 pick in the PSD, if half a dozen unhappy, uncontracted players had all walked, the quality ones would have found homes at other clubs.

It is interesting to note of our most experienced players Whitnall, Fevola & Scotland had great seasons in 2006, Houlihan did everything asked of him, Stevens carried an injury (but had been sensational in 2004 & 2005), Kouta is limited but was B & F in 2005. Lappin, well he has just cracked the sads.

Of our younger players, Simpson had a career best season. As did Thornton. Murphy exceeded everybody's expectations. Bentick & Carazzo continued to give their all. O'Hailpin came forward in leaps & bounds. I could go on for ages. The point is, though, it would seem the players that dislike Pagan are those that are on the outer. Those mostly lacking ability, who have only been on our list because of our desperate plight. If we had another half a dozen players with the experience of the above-named experienced players, we would be winning more games & therefore would not be subject to this type of rumor/innuendo.

 

[verbs]

On the other hand, it's perfectly reasonable for someone to be pissed off if they are given the flick like McGrath was.

A coach's job isn't necessarily to be liked. I have first hand experience of several young players from the Lions speaking in none too complimentary terms about Matthews.

While everything's going well, you just put up with things. When things aren't going so well, as in McGrath's case, the temptation will be there to have a dig.

 

[AndyWalkersGirl]

It's about having a job to do and getting it done.

It just helps a bit more if they like each other

I just want the footy to start. Enough politics. Enough gossip. Enough tittletales. Enough bigger individuals. I just want my club back to doing what it used to do best... play footy and play it well

 

[verbs]

I agree it helps if everyone can get along, but when you have that many people involved in something, it's inevitible not everyone will get along...even amongst players.

I find it an interesting thing. Pagan is an old-style coach unlike a Roos who is loved by everyone. Matthews is much like Pagan. Robert Walls was too. When a player is on the ground playing, do you think they don't try as hard to spite the coach? I would hate to think so.

 

[BlueWorld]

Of those players who have openly criticised Pagan how many are on AFL lists for 2007? I will give you Chris Bryan & even Campo, who hasn't really said a lot but may do so after he is delisted by Essendon at the end of this year. Were either of these 2 a great loss? The common thread among those who have opened their mouths has been the limited opportunities afforded them at senior level. Yet other clubs have not been queueing up to take them on.

I find it hard to believe there are many players on our current list who really dislike Pagan. I draw this conclusion based on my 26 years in the workforce in which I have seen many people, with marketable skills, who don't like their managers seek alternative employment. Surely the same applies at the Carlton Football Club. You don't stay somewhere that you are not happy for any longer than you need to. Even though we may have had the #1 pick in the PSD, if half a dozen unhappy, uncontracted players had all walked, the quality ones would have found homes at other clubs.

It is interesting to note of our most experienced players Whitnall, Fevola & Scotland had great seasons in 2006, Houlihan did everything asked of him, Stevens carried an injury (but had been sensational in 2004 & 2005), Kouta is limited but was B & F in 2005. Lappin, well he has just cracked the sads.

Of our younger players, Simpson had a career best season. As did Thornton. Murphy exceeded everybody's expectations. Bentick & Carazzo continued to give their all. O'Hailpin came forward in leaps & bounds. I could go on for ages. The point is, though, it would seem the players that dislike Pagan are those that are on the outer. Those mostly lacking ability, who have only been on our list because of our desperate plight. If we had another half a dozen players with the experience of the above-named experienced players, we would be winning more games & therefore would not be subject to this type of rumor/innuendo.

No current player is going to openly criticise Pagan. Have you ever heard Pagan openly criticise one of his players? (Other coaches have). Other clubs aren't going to queue up to take on players who can't get a regular game at the bottom club. Seeking alternative employment in the general work force is a lot different to changing clubs. How easy did Thornton find it?

My belief is we'd be winning a lot more games if the players cared a bit more for their coach. Why did we go from winning 3 in 2003 to 10 in 2004 to 3/4 last 2 years? Has the list got worse?

 

[blues4flag]

My belief is we'd be winning a lot more games if the players cared a bit more for their coach. Why did we go from winning 3 in 2003 to 10 in 2004 to 3/4 last 2 years? Has the list got worse?

The average age would have dropped at least 2 years from 2003/2004 - surely you're not expecting 18 and 19 year olds to have an impact at senior level? The rejects from other clubs gave us decent service, but most dropped off heaps after their first year (barring Stevens and Scotland).

 

[Bluebear]

My belief is we'd be winning a lot more games if the players cared a bit more for their coach. Why did we go from winning 3 in 2003 to 10 in 2004 to 3/4 last 2 years? Has the list got worse?

Answer must be because Pagan deceived all the players in 2004 into thinking he was a nice bloke.....so we won more.......then they realised they had been fooled.....and started losing again just to spite him.......sounds plausible don't you think?

The list has nothing to do with it.......sack the coach........sack the president........sack the....bootstudder......yeah thats right, you heard it here first. The players hate the way he mocks their boots for lack of use when they have had a bad game......definately one of the overloooked reasons for lack of success.
Thanks Blueworld and JTG........you have pulled my head out of the sand. We have a great list that is underperforming and has done for years........we should have won in '99, and probably '01, building a dynasty around such quality as McKernan, Livingston, Prendagast, Campo, Sporn to continue success through to '06...........can't believe I have been so blinded by my undying love for Pagan and Smorgon........what a dill.