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Universal Love David Teague

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gab213 said:
We won premierships on the back of plenty of games like that including Grand Finals, I'm just amazed at how people are so determined to turn absolutely everything into a negative, even when we win. I guess we can take 70, 79 and 81 off the list of premierships as we didn't win 4 quarters.
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I can see why you think people try and turn wins into negatives, especially just after we won.

However, for mine it isn't about looking for negatives, its trying to be measured and realistic. It's not as if the performance of our club over the entire year has suggested that we are a contender or even a top 8 side. This was the expectation from the club prior to the season (at least the top 8 part) so it isn't crazy to take a deep dive into some of the reasons why we have struggled, even after a win.

At 3 quarter time, I am sure most of of us were disappointed and some enraged with how we were playing. I think it is OK to look at those 3 quarters and see them as a red flag. I thought the same against Fremantle, where we were lucky to have the chance to win. The positives for both these games is that we found a way in the end but I would like to have higher standards because we are yet to beat a top 8 team with the way we are playing.

To your point about those grand finals, I don't think you can compare. Firstly, we were obviously playing the best teams in the competition to win in those years, not to mention that we had proven ourselves over a long period of time. Compare that to now where we have done the exact opposite and proven nothing for 10 years and also played a bottom 4 team (this was no grand final).
 
cookie monster said:
You really lose all credibility when you draw the comparison to Tigers 2016.

To go over this again:

Tigers in 2016 had made finals for 3 of the preceeding 4 seasons, spending much of 2015 in the top 4 before finishing 5th. Hardwick already had runs on the board and on exposed evidence was a capable coach.

Carlton on the other hand, has not finished in the 8 since 2011. David Teague has no runs on the board.

It's actually not even a comparison to make
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but what does "no finals since 2011" have to do with Teague though? The last coach that took Carlton to repeat finals from wooden spooners - was sacked - with the blessing of most geniuses on here and I still read nuff nuffery about how Ratten was 'just not up to it' - despite having far less resources to work with than the three coaches at Calrotn since he was stabbed in the back and kicked into the dumpster- and ex-Captain/Premiership player and CLub hero no less - what a disgrace the Club has been.

Carlton started its rebuild in 2016 and thought it time to sack both Coach and list manager because some genius from marketing thought it was a good idea . same geniuses that didn't replace senior experienced assistance in Craig when he left - and effectively left Bolton out to dry - similarities and repeat errors much? I mean seriously ....Barker was going to be the guy to guide Teague?....laughable.

the 'knock' on Teague is he hasn't outperformed expectations and is probably underperforming expectations for this year- but there are mitigating circumstances - that is why it is not an easy call - either way.

It is interesting to me to see just how many players are up for contract renewals this year - at the same time the Club is 'reviewing' the football department.

Tricky situation for all concerned - if you change from Teague to Clarkson/Lyon - you are going to have to be prepared for disappointment as they get themselves 'sorted' at a new Club and try and get the assistants they want need or maybe fail with some people who just don't work with either and we lose there - nothing is easy - which is why continuity and process and sticking to a program trumps short-termism - which has been the true Carlton curse.
 
woof39 said:
No not at all. Winning isn't bad, obviously, and I certainly mentioned that I was happy we won. I am just taking the time to think a bit deeper into it.

My concern is that the club are looking at this win and saying to each other, how good are we, when in reality, we were very average for 3 quarters against a bottom 4 team. We do have a track record of getting ahead of ourselves or at least not performing against top 8 sides. Is anyone OK with that? Let's raise the bar.

We need to make sure that the message aligns with this idea and my worry is that we don't do this and that is what I mean by accepting mediocrity.
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Sure. My point is the boldened just doesn't happen. Only idiots would overlook our deficiencies because of one good quarter. And not all at the club are idiots. Reckon your fears are misplaced.
 

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cookie monster said:
You really lose all credibility when you draw the comparison to Tigers 2016.

To go over this again:

Tigers in 2016 had made finals for 3 of the preceeding 4 seasons, spending much of 2015 in the top 4 before finishing 5th. Hardwick already had runs on the board and on exposed evidence was a capable coach.

Carlton on the other hand, has not finished in the 8 since 2011. David Teague has no runs on the board.

It's actually not even a comparison to make
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It's a comparison about the type of supporter as opposed to the trajectory of the teams. You are a *Teague absolutely can't coach" person as were many many Richmond supporters at the time.

Then you take a little piece of a post that you think that you turn to your advantage and reply to that as opposed to dealing with the whole matter. Most people call that deflection..

Let me ask you some simple questions. Do you think that David Teague has coached better in the last month? Do you think that David Teague could be a decent coach given an excellent support team around him?

Once again still awaiting your response in full to the reasons that I thought Teague coached well on Sunday..
 
BigFrizz36 said:
It's a comparison about the type of supporter as opposed to the trajectory of the teams. You are a *Teague absolutely can't coach" person as were many many Richmond supporters at the time.

Then you take a little piece of a post that you think that you turn to your advantage and reply to that as opposed to dealing with the whole matter. Most people call that deflection..

Let me ask you some simple questions. Do you think that David Teague has coached better in the last month? Do you think that David Teague could be a decent coach given an excellent support team around him?

Once again still awaiting your response in full to the reasons that I thought Teague coached well on Sunday..
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You'll be waiting a while ;)
 
JustaBattler said:
but what does "no finals since 2011" have to do with Teague though? The last coach that took Carlton to repeat finals from wooden spooners - was sacked - with the blessing of most geniuses on here and I still read nuff nuffery about how Ratten was 'just not up to it' - despite having far less resources to work with than the three coaches at Calrotn since he was stabbed in the back and kicked into the dumpster- and ex-Captain/Premiership player and CLub hero no less - what a disgrace the Club has been.

Goes to the state of the club, and current administrators that have overseen multiple poor appointments. For another conversation really

Carlton started its rebuild in 2016 and thought it time to sack both Coach and list manager because some genius from marketing thought it was a good idea . same geniuses that didn't replace senior experienced assistance in Craig when he left - and effectively left Bolton out to dry - similarities and repeat errors much? I mean seriously ....Barker was going to be the guy to guide Teague?....laughable.

Fully agree with this. However if our ITKs are to be believed, then Teague knocked back offers for higher calibre assistants at the end of last year. Thats an indictment on Brad Lloyd, and puts Teague in the crosshairs of culpability. Can't just say "it's because of poor assistants" when Teague himself has actively turned down offers for better help.

the 'knock' on Teague is he hasn't outperformed expectations and is probably underperforming expectations for this year- but there are mitigating circumstances - that is why it is not an easy call - either way.

It is interesting to me to see just how many players are up for contract renewals this year - at the same time the Club is 'reviewing' the football department.

Tricky situation for all concerned - if you change from Teague to Clarkson/Lyon - you are going to have to be prepared for disappointment as they get themselves 'sorted' at a new Club and try and get the assistants they want need or maybe fail with some people who just don't work with either and we lose there - nothing is easy - which is why continuity and process and sticking to a program trumps short-termism - which has been the true Carlton curse.

If you're alluding to the mistakes of say, the Malthouse appointment, it's a different situation. Malthouse walked into a list that was completely cooked through a decade of poor recruitment - but sold to the board and all supporters that we were 5 minutes to midnight on the premiership clock. Our board is to blame as much as Malthouse is for that calamity (who is still on the current board that made that was a part of that sad saga, hmmmmmm...)

For me, this list is ready to explode. Brimming with talent. A new, experienced, successful coach and his way of doing things would see this team explode. It's almost clear as day when you watch the way we play that we just don't get the fundamentals right. Efficiency of offense and defence through system is what unlocks the success of this club. If David Teague was capable of this, we would be seeing it by now
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cookie monster said:
I'm not going to waste my time explaining myself to Carlton Supporters who think we are just like Tigers in 2016.
The two couldn't be any more different
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Yep better to talk to those who think we're more like the Tigers from 1980-2010, 14 coaches in 30 years.
 
cookie monster said:
I'm not going to waste my time explaining myself to Carlton Supporters who think we are just like Tigers in 2016.
The two couldn't be any more different
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Isn't this the whole point? Why are people so quick to criticise Teague and assume that other coaches are going to be so much better when they've all coached different clubs, different lists, at different points in their trajectories?

Can we just sit back and appreciate that Teague has coached less than two full seasons, after taking over a club that had just come off its worst ever season in its 157 year history? Most 'experts' predicted us to this year either just make the eight, or just slip out of it. And guess what? As of Rnd 18 that's exactly the range that we're currently in.

Give the bloke a chance, ffs.
 

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BigFrizz36 said:
Jack silvagni is Gerard's Monday hero.
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Will the wonders never cease?
 
cookie monster said:
I'm not going to waste my time explaining myself to Carlton Supporters who think we are just like Tigers in 2016.
The two couldn't be any more different
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Can you waste it comparing us to Cats in 2006?
 
Teaguey is pretty good with his back against the wall.

2019 nobody gave him a chance of getting the gig but he picked himself with 6 wins.

half way through 2021 everybody was writing him off and it looks like he's turning it around again.

clutch.
 
chunkylover53 said:
Teaguey is pretty good with his back against the wall.

2019 nobody gave him a chance of getting the gig but he picked himself with 6 wins.

half way through 2021 everybody was writing him off and it looks like he's turning it around again.

clutch.
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Please provide examples of when Teague has been "pretty good with his back to the wall"

In 2019, how does a caretaker coach with nothing to lose have his "back to the wall"?
 
El Topo said:
famous last words...
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Not really.

We're never as bad as we look when we lose.

Never as good as we look when we win.

Truth is in the middle. Club knows this.
 

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cookie monster said:
The Cats being the team that were a kick away from a Grand Final in 2004?
And made the semis in 2005?
When was the last time Carlton won a final again?
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The competition is a lot more diluted now (with the extra teams and expanded list sizes)

so maybe 2006 was a bad example
 
woof39 said:
My concern is that the club are looking at this win and saying to each other, how good are we, when in reality, we were very average for 3 quarters against a bottom 4 team.
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Pavlich switched channels at 3Q time to watch a rerun of Gilligan's Island, Teague is not out of the woods yet.
 
cookie monster

Goes to the state of the club, and current administrators that have overseen multiple poor appointments. For another conversation really

Yep.

Fully agree with this. However if our ITKs are to be believed, then Teague knocked back offers for higher calibre assistants at the end of last year. Thats an indictment on Brad Lloyd, and puts Teague in the crosshairs of culpability. Can't just say "it's because of poor assistants" when Teague himself has actively turned down offers for better help.

I came across that rumour at some stage and was so gobsmacked that I didn't believe it to be true.


If you're alluding to the mistakes of say, the Malthouse appointment, it's a different situation. Malthouse walked into a list that was completely cooked through a decade of poor recruitment - but sold to the board and all supporters that we were 5 minutes to midnight on the premiership clock. Our board is to blame as much as Malthouse is for that calamity (who is still on the current board that made that was a part of that sad saga, hmmmmmm...)

They've made heaps more errors since appointing Malthouse - heaps - and I will leave it there.

1. The list was not cooked it was a finals quality starting 22 that could have used more depth and improvement in KPP defenders.
2. Malthouse ( courtesy of Swann influence ) lied about easy fix for top4 and flag and then changed his mind - after he had destroyed the list and suggested a full rebuild
3. Yes there are some still on the current board that were there then - but who knows how much of say they really had - back then anyway?

For me, this list is ready to explode. Brimming with talent. A new, experienced, successful coach and his way of doing things would see this team explode. It's almost clear as day when you watch the way we play that we just don't get the fundamentals right. Efficiency of offense and defence through system is what unlocks the success of this club. If David Teague was capable of this, we would be seeing it by now

1. Yes it is a talented list - much more balanced than what Ratten had
2. not getting fundamental skills right suggests to me that the list isnt complete or finished or the right players aren't ready to debut yet kind of speaks against point 1 though
3. Teague's real ability and how far away is he really - is the open question - no doubt all new coaches are learning and al good coaches continue to learn.

I'm not convinced bringing in a new coach ( whoever that is) is going to do a better job of fixing than Teague is capable of doing - but I'm also not convinced Teague will get there either. Which is why I am (for once) sitting on the fence.
 
El Topo said:
It's possible that Thy's nightmare hypothetical is exactly how Teague was appointed in 2019 - never say never when it comes to the CFC
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It was more than one quarter that got Teague the job.

  1. Vastly improved win-loss record under Teague (6-5) than Bolton (1-10). Projecting Teague's record over a season we miss finals on percentage including a ten-goal loss in round 23 when the cue was put in the rack after our R22 win.
  2. Clearly improved football department morale (from the top of the department on down)
  3. Call from the playing list that Teague be rewarded with the job
  4. Media all aboard on the Teague Train.
It's fair to criticize the way in which the appointment was made. The process could (should) have been more exhaustive. However, there was more merit in it than a nightmare hypothesis.
 
Someone had a quiet word in my ear the day before Barker left the club saying that certain mods had the idea that I had a negative agenda against Barker. I didn't have a negative agenda against Barker... I just thought he was a shit coach and should be nowhere near the club in any form of coaching and developement role, and I wasn't shy in coming forward about it either... a view supported by a lot of members of this board.

Now I am seeing someone who definitely has a negative agenda against David Teague who, and lets be honest here, has been in the job for 2 years and has been surrounded by average assistant coaches. His career progression is mirroring that of Bomber Thompson, Alistar Clarkson, and Damian Hardwick. They all started off a bit slow, built up the list to what they wanted... and then went boom. Since then, they have all won premierships... because the club had faith in them and eventually put all the right resources behind them to succeed.

What happens if we give Teague the flick without giving him a real chance and he goes off and gets picked up by another club as their senior coach and he leads them to a few premierships after giving him the assistant coaches and other support staff to help him realise that. Are all the nay sayers going to come out of the woodwork then berating the club for being so short sighted as to get rid of Teague? He has another year on his contract, the club is starting to put the off-field resources in place for success, in terms of coaching and other support staff, and he has shown improvement over the last couple of weeks. Lets give him the time and see what happens at the end of next year.
 

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