Universal Love David Teague

[The Flying Doormat]

Someone had a quiet word in my ear the day before Barker left the club saying that certain mods had the idea that I had a negative agenda against Barker. I didn't have a negative agenda against Barker... I just thought he was a sh*t coach and should be nowhere near the club in any form of coaching and developement role, and I wasn't shy in coming forward about it either... a view supported by a lot of members of this board.

Now I am seeing someone who definitely has a negative agenda against David Teague who, and lets be honest here, has been in the job for 2 years and has been surrounded by average assistant coaches. His career progression is mirroring that of Bomber Thompson, Alistar Clarkson, and Damian Hardwick. They all started off a bit slow, built up the list to what they wanted... and then went boom. Since then, they have all won premierships... because the club had faith in them and eventually put all the right resources behind them to succeed.

What happens if we give Teague the flick without giving him a real chance and he goes off and gets picked up by another club as their senior coach and he leads them to a few premierships after giving him the assistant coaches and other support staff to help him realise that. Are all the nay sayers going to come out of the woodwork then berating the club for being so short sighted as to get rid of Teague? He has another year on his contract, the club is starting to put the off-field resources in place for success, in terms of coaching and other support staff, and he has shown improvement over the last couple of weeks. Lets give him the time and see what happens at the end of next year.

Nothing to worry about there Dram. How many of the coaches we've flicked over the last 20 years have gone on to achieve success elsewhere? Best effort is Ratts and I can't see one, let alone multiple flags any time soon at the Saints.

 

[Dramoth]

Nothing to worry about there Dram. How many of the coaches we've flicked over the last 20 years have gone on to achieve success elsewhere? Best effort is Ratts and I can't see one, let alone multiple flags any time soon at the Saints.

The Aint's isn't probably the best team for Ratts to be coaching at really. I mean 1 flag... total. And that shonky DVD "The Winning Streak"... really.

 

[cookie monster]

cookie monster



Fully agree with this. However if our ITKs are to be believed, then Teague knocked back offers for higher calibre assistants at the end of last year. Thats an indictment on Brad Lloyd, and puts Teague in the crosshairs of culpability. Can't just say "it's because of poor assistants" when Teague himself has actively turned down offers for better help.

I came across that rumour at some stage and was so gobsmacked that I didn't believe it to be true.


2. not getting fundamental skills right suggests to me that the list isnt complete or finished or the right players aren't ready to debut yet kind of speaks against point 1 though

1. It sort of makes sense though. Why would you want higher quality assistance when that would bring the existential threat of them gunning for your job? Goes to my earlier comment about Teague being a survivor, rather than a winner.

Even the Worsfold mentoring role, I mean come on; mentoring from Perth? Where is the ex-senior coach that is sitting with him in the box and providing him with live feedback? Instead we get Worsfold, and ex-mentor well and truly out of the coaching game and posing zero threat to Teague's position

2. Fundamental skills I speak of; why are we always pumping the ball back into the congested side of the ground in a rebound 50 situation? The ball should be going out to the opposite "clean" wing. Our players hardly ever look to see the free player on that side of the ground. As a consequence we start to see overall skill start to diminish because our whole game plan just becomes a kick long to contest type game, reliant on winning stoppages and needing to roll more numbers into the stoppage than would be necessary otherwise. It leaves us highly exposed to fast rebound from turnovers, and we see this over and over.

Quality of inside 50s is generally always horrible, and leads us to taking very poor shots on goal and conquently kicking more behinds than goals.

That's not something that the "right players" are going to fix, that's coaching plain and simple.

 

[Magruder]

but what does "no finals since 2011" have to do with Teague though? The last coach that took Carlton to repeat finals from wooden spooners - was sacked - with the blessing of most geniuses on here and I still read nuff nuffery about how Ratten was 'just not up to it' - despite having far less resources to work with than the three coaches at Calrotn since he was stabbed in the back and kicked into the dumpster- and ex-Captain/Premiership player and CLub hero no less - what a disgrace the Club has been.

Carlton started its rebuild in 2016 and thought it time to sack both Coach and list manager because some genius from marketing thought it was a good idea . same geniuses that didn't replace senior experienced assistance in Craig when he left - and effectively left Bolton out to dry - similarities and repeat errors much? I mean seriously ....Barker was going to be the guy to guide Teague?....laughable.

the 'knock' on Teague is he hasn't outperformed expectations and is probably underperforming expectations for this year- but there are mitigating circumstances - that is why it is not an easy call - either way.

It is interesting to me to see just how many players are up for contract renewals this year - at the same time the Club is 'reviewing' the football department.

Tricky situation for all concerned - if you change from Teague to Clarkson/Lyon - you are going to have to be prepared for disappointment as they get themselves 'sorted' at a new Club and try and get the assistants they want need or maybe fail with some people who just don't work with either and we lose there - nothing is easy - which is why continuity and process and sticking to a program trumps short-termism - which has been the true Carlton curse.

spot on.

I'm not convinced by Teague, in particular the dopey chin scratching and apparent inaction while the game swings away from us is a trigger, but performances have been better over the last month.

BTW, it has nothing to do with wins - I thought we were actually better for longer against the cats - we have had better coverage and structure behind the ball.

 

[Oilyman]

Quality of inside 50s is generally always horrible, and leads us to taking very poor shots on goal and conquently kicking more behinds than goals.

That's not something that the "right players" are going to fix, that's coaching plain and simple.

Our I50 scoring and our D50 to I50 transition has been a problem this year... thank God we've apparently got a coach who can fix it? (see attachment)

Also FWIW, we've scored more behinds than goals in 1 of our last 4 matches...

 

[gab213]

Without going thru the team list again , even the media were joking about being a wafl side !!
Brace yourself mate , Teague has only 5 weeks to go irrespective of were we finish on the ladder

Here's the thing, if he goes he goes, I'll be fine and will support whoever is appointed. I reckon you'd need to brace yourself for the possibility that he doesn't go, you and others will be losing your minds for at least another 12 months.

 

[My Hat]

Fully agree with this. However if our ITKs are to be believed, then Teague knocked back offers for higher calibre assistants at the end of last year. Thats an indictment on Brad Lloyd, and puts Teague in the crosshairs of culpability. Can't just say "it's because of poor assistants" when Teague himself has actively turned down offers for better help.

Pretty sure we had some ITKs earlier this year say we were planning to change up the assistant coaches at the end of last year, but the reduced covid soft cap was a problem for the payouts.

 

[JustaBattler]

1. It sort of makes sense though. Why would you want higher quality assistance when that would bring the existential threat of them gunning for your job? Goes to my earlier comment about Teague being a survivor, rather than a winner.

Even the Worsfold mentoring role, I mean come on; mentoring from Perth? Where is the ex-senior coach that is sitting with him in the box and providing him with live feedback? Instead we get Worsfold, and ex-mentor well and truly out of the coaching game and posing zero threat to Teague's position

2. Fundamental skills I speak of; why are we always pumping the ball back into the congested side of the ground in a rebound 50 situation? The ball should be going out to the opposite "clean" wing. Our players hardly ever look to see the free player on that side of the ground. As a consequence we start to see overall skill start to diminish because our whole game plan just becomes a kick long to contest type game, reliant on winning stoppages and needing to roll more numbers into the stoppage than would be necessary otherwise. It leaves us highly exposed to fast rebound from turnovers, and we see this over and over.

Quality of inside 50s is generally always horrible, and leads us to taking very poor shots on goal and conquently kicking more behinds than goals.

That's not something that the "right players" are going to fix, that's coaching plain and simple.

Not convinced about Teague refusing an improvement in his assistants, kinda believe he was loyal to those who supported him in getting the coaching role - but that isn't a bad thing - others would have been involved in agreeing -given he was asked ( presumably) if he wanted changes...

I agree with game plan being a bit wonky - poor enough in parts that even arm chair watchers (like me and you) can pick issues - but that in't 'skill error' in players - thta is coaching.

As for player skills I think the team is carrying a few players that can't execute basic skills under any sort of pressure and sometimes even no pressure.

SO I put things all together and think - well game plan can be fixed - and players can improve or be replaced- we all know/suspect who the weak links are and what needs to be improved one way or another. So I am totally neutral on Teague - can see upside can also ssee downside in replacing or keeping him.

 

[BigFrizz36]

Without going thru the team list again , even the media were joking about being a wafl side !!
Brace yourself mate , Teague has only 5 weeks to go irrespective of were we finish on the ladder

Sounds like you must be a board member such is your absolute certainty of your tone. If so - thanks for sharing with us.

If not - bad news mate - you are guessing the same as the rest of us.

Seems unlikely to me that we would pay clarkson over a mill for 2022 (to save the Hawks from doing it) and pay Teague out for say $500k and pay at least the same again to the afl for going over the soft cap. But you can enlighten us as to how and why we will.

 

[BigFrizz36]

I'm not going to waste my time explaining myself to Carlton Supporters who think we are just like Tigers in 2016.
The two couldn't be any more different

Once again nobody said that we are like the tigers in 2016. I did that you are like the Tiger supporters of 2016 who all said that hardwick couldn't coach.

Once again rather than answer the questions asked of you you would prefer to deflect by taking a small part and trying to twist it to your advantage.

Pretty sad actually.

 

[Garters]

[/QUOTE]

Pretty sure we had some ITKs earlier this year say we were planning to change up the assistant coaches at the end of last year, but the reduced covid soft cap was a problem for the payouts.

Measure twice cut once. Something CFC has struggled to get their head around for a long time.

 

[azzablue16]

I will never understand why people make such definitive statements, can make them look very silly and just for the hope of an "I told you so".

I’m ain’t making outlandish statements it’s a fact , !! He is dead man walking and finished
Sorry to state fact ... and hurt your feelings

 

[Blue and Blue]

What a garbage post....

The final siren is all the matters? If this is correct, at the final siren we have been losers 10 times of the 17 times we've played this year - in a year our club was very forthright in saying finals is the expectation.

Who is accountable for not meeting what is by definition, the club's own performance KPI?

As for my agenda... I would say it's one that more Carlton supporters agree with than not. I have not been a Teague basher in fact I am on the record saying I wanted him to be given every opportunity. But this year for me it has become clear that he just doesn't have it

I am talking about this week mate.....doesnt matter what happened for three quarters if the siren goes and we won.

And also to say just enjoy a win and let the other stuff take care of itself...it surely will.

 

[Stamos]

Pretty sure we had some ITKs earlier this year say we were planning to change up the assistant coaches at the end of last year, but the reduced covid soft cap was a problem for the payouts.

There was an amnesty on payouts last year. Could have sacked the lot of them, it wouldn't have affected the soft cap.

 

[JustaBattler]

I’m ain’t making outlandish statements it’s a fact , !! He is dead man walking and finished
Sorry to state fact ... and hurt your feelings

I dont 'necesarilly' disagree with the statements you have made regarding some of the Club's woeful historical errors, the causes and consequences of the errors, and on more recent times your views on Murphy - that said there is a difference between opnion and desire and "fact" - a "fact" is a something that is a known and proven truth - indisputable.

So your 'factual' call on the status of Teague is just an opnion or a belief or a want at this stage - isn't it?

 

[My Hat]

There was an amnesty on payouts last year. Could have sacked the lot of them, it wouldn't have affected the soft cap.

You might be right. Not sure if there was a difference in the rules for those who were let go mid-year vs those who stayed to the end of the year.

Found the post containing the rumour in question, it's in point 2 here: https://www.bigfooty.com/forum/threads/bluemour-melting-pot-xxviii.1258531/page-26#post-69287616

 

[blue healer]

I’m ain’t making outlandish statements it’s a fact , !! He is dead man walking and finished
Sorry to state fact ... and hurt your feelings

Unless you're Luke Sayers.. yes you are.

 

[Andonis1997]

I’m ain’t making outlandish statements it’s a fact , !! He is dead man walking and finished
Sorry to state fact ... and hurt your feelings

Unless you're Luke Sayers.. yes you are.

If Luke Sayers's grammar and punctuation use is as poor as this guy's, we have bigger issues than Teague.

 

[thylacine60]

If Luke Sayers's grammar and punctuation use is as poor as this guy's, we have bigger issues than Teague.

grammar and punctuation are the least of that poster's issues..........

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

Teague can make the finals - and I definitely think we have the cattle to do it.

Looking ahead at the ladder Carlton wins all the way through we can finish 7th - said this before the midway point and still believe it.

It really is down to Teague, player fatigue and coming home with a BANG !! If he can stick phat with bringing in new kids - some or all of Kemp, Curnow, Honey, Ramsay, Parks maybe LOB and avoid the temptation of playing Murphy, Newnes, Pittonet - even Casboult - would like to see Betts wind down for his retirement - and then come back with some show cases in the finals.


VERY doable and would be two games clear inside the top 8 depending on outcomes of Tigers, GWS, Essendon etc but VERY doable - VERY.

If he sticks with the old tired bodies and misses - wont be much sympathy from many quarters.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

It was more than one quarter that got Teague the job.

1. Vastly improved win-loss record under Teague (6-5) than Bolton (1-10). Projecting Teague's record over a season we miss finals on percentage including a ten-goal loss in round 23 when the cue was put in the rack after our R22 win.
2. Clearly improved football department morale (from the top of the department on down)
3. Call from the playing list that Teague be rewarded with the job
4. Media all aboard on the Teague Train.

It's fair to criticize the way in which the appointment was made. The process could (should) have been more exhaustive. However, there was more merit in it than a nightmare hypothesis.

Bolton was developing the kids - he was preparing them for the future and sacrificing EASY wins to get games into the kids. Pretty much everyone agreed that was what Bolton was doing.

Teagues IMMEDIATE response on taking over was to play as many of the older players as possible and relegate the kids back to the VFL where some have BARELY seen a game since.

I have posted an incredibly exhaustive demonstration of this in previous threads as 100% statistically factual.

He let the buys play with freedom and got the "honey moon" wins. Very much like Rhyce Shaw - who also got the gig on a similar "bounce".

He has implemented an incredibly strict regime since taking over of NOT playing the youth - with I think only 1 maybe 2 national draft selections debuting under him.

So in my view Teague has some positives and negatives. He is fiercely loyal, I think an incredible tactition frequently almost getting us over the line and turning around 5 6 goal deficits - and in my view absolutely the coach we need.

The problem however is that he tasted "victory" with older bodies and REFUSES to develop, loyalty rears its head and he refuses to drop under performing players. Newnes - just should NOT BE IN THE TEAM.

If Teague remains he needs to be forced to develop as it costs the club long term - and in my view if he refuses to play the kids and returns to / sticks with older bodies and we fail to make the 8 then he has signed his own papers.

Make the 8 he should stay.

 

[Blue Reaper]

Personally, I don't think finals, or no finals, should be the determining factor of whether to replace Teague. But irrespective of who is available, or the outcome of the review, it'd be a bloody harsh call sacking Teague should we make finals.

Lots of ifs, buts and in-betweens at play, but intriguing end to the season nevertheless.

 

[F_therest]

Bolton was developing the kids - he was preparing them for the future and sacrificing EASY wins to get games into the kids. Pretty much everyone agreed that was what Bolton was doing.

Teagues IMMEDIATE response on taking over was to play as many of the older players as possible and relegate the kids back to the VFL where some have BARELY seen a game since.

I have posted an incredibly exhaustive demonstration of this in previous threads as 100% statistically factual.

He let the buys play with freedom and got the "honey moon" wins. Very much like Rhyce Shaw - who also got the gig on a similar "bounce".

He has implemented an incredibly strict regime since taking over of NOT playing the youth - with I think only 1 maybe 2 national draft selections debuting under him.

So in my view Teague has some positives and negatives. He is fiercely loyal, I think an incredible tactition frequently almost getting us over the line and turning around 5 6 goal deficits - and in my view absolutely the coach we need.

The problem however is that he tasted "victory" with older bodies and REFUSES to develop, loyalty rears its head and he refuses to drop under performing players. Newnes - just should NOT BE IN THE TEAM.

If Teague remains he needs to be forced to develop as it costs the club long term - and in my view if he refuses to play the kids and returns to / sticks with older bodies and we fail to make the 8 then he has signed his own papers.

Make the 8 he should stay.

Just on the kids thing...there's a few things we just don't know the answer to.

1. There's an argument that Teague had to 'correct' Bolton's gifting of games to kids and make them earn their selection and change bad habits. We've heard Daisy publicly say the gifting of games was bad for their development and the culture of the playing group.

2. Since Barker left and Power replaced him, we've given more midfield time to Kennedy/Dow/Fisher/SPS...was it more Teague or Barker who were sticking with the older players? We've heard Teague say he wants to empower and trust his assistants. It may have been Barker's call and Teague backed him. Dow has actually had many chances this year, it's just that in earlier rounds he wasn't performing and would get dropped.

3. Maybe it's not about Barker but since the review during the bye, Teague may have received some feedback and changed his philosophy and given the young guys more of a chance. We have plenty of young players in our team though, or inexperienced ones like Owies. Stocker/TDK/Owies/Dow/Fogarty are regulars, Cottrell is getting games and Parks got a taste earlier this season. I see a lot of posters complain that Honey isn't getting games, but seriously the feedback I read on the club website always says he's too inconsistent and needs to work on staying in the game...aka he doesn't deserve a call up. We also can't say LOB is being shafted for an older player when it's Cottrell taking his spot.

4. Ed Curnow has been moved out of the prime midfield positions to give more game time to Kennedy/Dow.

Bottom line is I think the young kids are getting a fair go when they've earned it, and even more so since the bye. We're on the right track.

 

[F_therest]

Personally, I don't think finals, or no finals, should be the determining factor of whether to replace Teague. But irrespective of who is available, or the outcome of the review, it'd be a bloody harsh call sacking Teague should we make finals.

Lots of ifs, buts and in-betweens at play, but intriguing end to the season nevertheless.

I'd be shocked if Teague was sacked at this point.

The last 4 weeks tells me the players are still committed, resilient and the coach hasn't 'lost' them. We've played some really good footy in patches in that period and all year really.

Most of us have seen Teague make some good in-game changes either a player's position or style change. Just on the weekend Willo was sent to play defensive forward and in the second half we really cut off their short kicks through the middle.

Since the bye our whole structure/gameplan has changed a bit where we've stiffened our defence by sending more numbers back...our defensive shape has improved from this. We're also seeing Dow/Kennedy/Fisher/SPS get more midfield minutes.

These are all positive signs that the coach has a clue. Don't forget since the bye we are a coach down with Barker leaving as well...adding a good assistant would make a big difference.

 

[Pentatonic Flat Fifth]

Just on the kids thing...there's a few things we just don't know the answer to.

1. There's an argument that Teague had to 'correct' Bolton's gifting of games to kids and make them earn their selection and change bad habits. We've heard Daisy publicly say the gifting of games was bad for their development and the culture of the playing group.

2. Since Barker left and Power replaced him, we've given more midfield time to Kennedy/Dow/Fisher/SPS...was it more Teague or Barker who were sticking with the older players? We've heard Teague say he wants to empower and trust his assistants. It may have been Barker's call and Teague backed him. Dow has actually had many chances this year, it's just that in earlier rounds he wasn't performing and would get dropped.

3. Maybe it's not about Barker but since the review during the bye, Teague may have received some feedback and changed his philosophy and given the young guys more of a chance. We have plenty of young players in our team though, or inexperienced ones like Owies. Stocker/TDK/Owies/Dow/Fogarty are regulars, Cottrell is getting games and Parks got a taste earlier this season. I see a lot of posters complain that Honey isn't getting games, but seriously the feedback I read on the club website always says he's too inconsistent and needs to work on staying in the game...aka he doesn't deserve a call up. We also can't say LOB is being shafted for an older player when it's Cottrell taking his spot.

4. Ed Curnow has been moved out of the prime midfield positions to give more game time to Kennedy/Dow.

Bottom line is I think the young kids are getting a fair go when they've earned it, and even more so since the bye. We're on the right track.

Dow was brought in as sub - then dropped. He was brought back in - played 5 minutes, was injured and dropped - so really ? No. Just no.

SPS was moved after an absolute media sh1t storm that the club couldn't continue to ignore - it was ridiculous. He went into the midfield and played as well as any other - and was dropped. Teague forced Fisher into the forward line - there are articles listing how disillusioned Fisher was with this - specifically Teagues call. Teague persisted with Setterfield almost all year - he was terrible and kennedy was doing really well - we lost Docherty and Cripps - welcome aboard Kennedy - HENCE MY POINT.

If Teague is leaving decisions on "who plays where" to his assistants - then he needs to go - honestly that would be beyond ludicrous. Murphy was pegged forward - and is injured - Owies, Pittonet is injured - TDK, Fogarty is underperforming in my view and Stocker should be in the midfield where he belongs - its almost a comedy act watching him in the back line.

Match reports I have seen have heaped praised on Honey - endlessly - in fact I have watched then put together video packages of just how good he has been - Ramsay had 28 possessions and that was enough to give Murphy another crack in the seniors after a couple of short kicks and a one armed failed tackle.

So no. Not in my view - in the least. Emphatically, empirically, statistically.