Developing an elite team.

[JunX]

Adelaide have to looks of a great team, and I dont agree with all the talk about Douglas being out of our 22 and Maric on the outer. Its pretty obvious that in 2 - 3 years Danger, Vince, VB, MacKay, Otten, Thompson, Petrenko and even Knights will be the running players of the crows future. Add Bock, Rutten, Johncock, Reilly and Symes to the back 6 and there is the experience of the best defense in the AFL the crows used to boast with Bassett, Mcleod, Hart etc back there. Then the forward line wont be made up of kids anymore, it will revolve around our own Franklin / Roughhead, Brown / Bradshaw, Kossi / Reiwolt combo in Walker / Tippett. We will be up there in a few years

 

[jackster83]

Initially, no way. Craig was stubborn as. Having said that, he took us from nowhere to two Prelims, so we weren't far off.

Getting rid of Hart and Torney perhaps before their time, and also trading Welsh and Mattner was a start. If he were to be even more brutal, then Shirley and Doughty won't be there at years end and Knights would be moved on. I don't think that will happen though.

Wtf would this achieve?

If he was to be part of a trade for a gun player then maybe, but geez he would be one of the most unlikely candidates for delisting.

 

[johnnypanther]

Agree here. Shirley being picked in the SANFL when he was 100% fit and had played in the preseason games was the biggest sign we've had that things are changing within the AFC mindset. Having Petrenko, Otten, Walker and Dangerfield all line up for Round 1 was beyond even the wildest dreams of us The Children Are Our Future posters on here. Simply would not have happened 12 or even 8 months ago.

I would point out that although Shirley being dropped was the 1st sign of a welcome change in the AFC mindset - all those other names mentioned got their opportunity because of injuries/suspensions etc to more senior players such as Gill, Stevens, Symes, Johncock, Knights, Hentschell & Bock in the first 4 rounds. Thats not to say that they would not have been given the chance, however, it would have been interesting to see what the selections would have been had not Symes etc been available. I'm not yet quite convinced that we are fast-tracking our youth (or enough of them).

 

[Thylacinus]

I love how people are naming players like Henderson who has played what 1 reserve SANFL game saying in 2-3 years he could be starting on our wing? lol??

Apparently Maric wont be in our best 26 either? After being our num 1 ruck for the 2nd half last year and first pick ruck so far this year... Gee 1 bad game and people write you off for good.

For me it is not just about staying with the status quo, but identifying the players with the present qualities or else the upside or potential to help take the team to the elite status. As already mentioned, some tough decisions still lie ahead. What makes things even more challenging is identifying not only individual talent, but also team balance. I think Henderson may well have both the athleticism and natural talent we need to take that next step. He will need some time to develop. Time will tell, as it will also in how the pecking order pans out between our four present ruckmen and any others that we may acquire in the near future. Actually, have a go using our current list to name a team for 2 years time. I think you may find it is not as easy as you think. Remember, Geelong showed us we are still short of the mark with a number of aging champs still in the team. We don't only have to replace them with equally talented youngsters, but even raise the bar a little further. That will involve blooding still further young players and identifying at least a couple of present players who are short of the mark. I do not believe most fans or the AFC's vision is a mediocre, or even a good club that is around the mark, but being the pace setter; the elite!


I agree with CC that another real top grade mid would probably be the way to go with our next round one draft pick.

BTW,

 

[Drugs Are Bad Mackay?]

I would point out that although Shirley being dropped was the 1st sign of a welcome change in the AFC mindset - all those other names mentioned got their opportunity because of injuries to more senior players such as Gill, Stevens, Symes, Johncock, Knights in the first 4 rounds. Thats not to say that they would not have been given the chance, however, it would have been interesting to see what the selections would have been had not Symes etc been available. I'm not yet quite convinced that we are fast-tracking our youth (or enough of them).

I'm a little more optimistic. Symes only played because Knights got injured. And Gill only played because Bock was suspended. Cook was the one who was perhaps gifted a game due to Johncock's unavailability.

I reckon that out of the current 22 Symes and Shirley would go before any of the Fab 4.

 

[Crows4Flag]

Wtf would this achieve?

If he was to be part of a trade for a gun player then maybe, but geez he would be one of the most unlikely candidates for delisting.

No kidding im getting pretty tired of the Knights bashing on this forum. Two years ago he was our next big star and is still easily in our best 22.

Focus on actual hacks on our list like Gill for example.

 

[Thylacinus]

No kidding im getting pretty tired of the Knights bashing on this forum. Two years ago he was our next big star and is still easily in our best 22.

Focus on actual hacks on our list like Gill for example.

I'm with you. IMO Knights is a very talented footballer and when he finally plays to his full potential may well be considered an elite midfielder.

 

[LC40]

Champion midfields win premierships. Look at the midfields Brisbane, West Coast and Geelong have had in recent times.

All had about 3 Brownlow medal contenders in there.

I agree with Smoothy.
Mick Malthhouse was quoted as saying all premierships are won by teams with good midfields.
Judd,Cousins,Kerr/Black,Voss,Akermanis,Power/Corey,Ablett,Bartel,Selwood all these players are/were elite gut running footballers who hurt you at both ends of the ground.
Knights,Douglas,Shirley are players who try their butts off but poor disposal,speed or ability have not allowed them to take over a game and dominate a team.
Edwards our best midfielder is over 30 while Thompson could be a great midfielder if he honoured the first give.Van Berlo will get there if he becomes a goal kicking threat which at present is the one part of his game that is lacking.
Dangerfield looks the most promising for he appears handy around goals and goes in hard to get the contested ball. He still needs to work harder off the ball but he is only a kid in terms of games and that part of his makeup will come.
The next few years are going to be tough in terms of drafting but somehow the Crows are going to need to improve their speed and hardness around the stoppages.
Quality midfielders in my book are our main priority upgrade to take us to the next level without them its rare to win the big one.

 

[spexau]

Hardness around the stoppages come with mature bodies, something that only time will bring. Speed comes with how fast you can extract the ball out of the stoppages which comes with tough mature bodies.

Everything is going to take time and patience with this team and no amount of ranting and raving about particular flaws or a particular players' disposal ability is going to get us anywhere.

 

[crowman86]

I'm a little more optimistic. Symes only played because Knights got injured. And Gill only played because Bock was suspended. Cook was the one who was perhaps gifted a game due to Johncock's unavailability.

I reckon that out of the current 22 Symes and Shirley would go before any of the Fab 4.

Its hard to tell if Symes was just playing because of Knights smashing his eye socket. Its a bit hard to be ready for round 1 with 2 broken wrists. Who knows he may have been ahead of Petrenko in the pecking order, we don't know and we can only speculate.

Agree with the Cook and Gill selections though, neither of them demanded to be played.

 

[LC40]

Hardness around the stoppages come with mature bodies, something that only time will bring. Speed comes with how fast you can extract the ball out of the stoppages which comes with tough mature bodies.

Everything is going to take time and patience with this team and no amount of ranting and raving about particular flaws or a particular players' disposal ability is going to get us anywhere.

Well maybe your definition and my defintion of these points are different.
Hardness can be improved with time and blokes undoubtly mature but guys like Selwood are in there second full season of football,Rich his first. The hardness I'm talking about is the attack on the ball something which some players have naturally and instictively.
When you scout these players for drafting purposes this quality shines through.
You don't have to have a mature body to have this attitude, Petrenko has it in spades and he has played 3 games.
Speed of ball movement is completely different to the speed of an individual player.The game is evolving quickly and fast players across the ground which can apply pressure ala Rioli are becoming more and more valuable.
Mature body ot not you can't manufacture the speed I was referring too that is why Dangerfield is potentially such a potent player.

As for ranting and raving on this player or that player what have I said that is incorrect. I have reread my post and have plainly not assassinated any one individual. When has a comment on poor disposal been a rant.
The topic asked about developing an elite team and in my humble opinion we need to upgrade our midfield to rise to the next level
Do you think we have an elite midfield Spexau?
As for patience I have it in bucket loads but this is a forum where we give opinions. As you correctly stated my opinions aren't going to get us anywhere
that is up to the players who must improve the flaws I perceive they have.

 

[spexau]

Fair enough.

I don't think we have an elite midfield no. But I don't think we are completely lacking in hard players or slow players. Dangerfield, Petrenko, Cook and Mackay are 4 players that could form the nucleus of an elite midfield. All pacey and hard at it. Throw them in with Vince, Thompson and Knights and I think we've got a good up and coming midfield that has the potential to be elite and will hopefully come on in leaps and bounds this year. We saw in patches that our midfield could compete with the best on Saturday night, it's just the consistency that they lack which is all due to having a body that is AFL fit and hardened.

I wasn't pointing you out for having a go at any particular player. It was more of the attitude of the majority of the board. Apologies if it came across incorrectly.

Good that you have patience because we have some exciting times ahead of us as supporters

 

[LC40]

Fair enough.

I don't think we have an elite midfield no. But I don't think we are completely lacking in hard players or slow players. Dangerfield, Petrenko, Cook and Mackay are 4 players that could form the nucleus of an elite midfield. All pacey and hard at it. Throw them in with Vince, Thompson and Knights and I think we've got a good up and coming midfield that has the potential to be elite and will hopefully come on in leaps and bounds this year. We saw in patches that our midfield could compete with the best on Saturday night, it's just the consistency that they lack which is all due to having a body that is AFL fit and hardened.

I wasn't pointing you out for having a go at any particular player. It was more of the attitude of the majority of the board. Apologies if it came across incorrectly.

Good that you have patience because we have some exciting times ahead of us as supporters

True we do have a nucleus of a good midfield and the players you mentioned are all good players and will undoubtly improve especially in decision making as they become the senior members of the midfield.
I still think we are missing someone who has genuine hardness and I feel our next draft will have to concentrate on this but the pieces are coming together nicely and we are a lot better team than most posters give us credit for.
You are right it takes time does take hard work and gametime to get the improvement in the end.

 

[spexau]

True we do have a nucleus of a good midfield and the players you mentioned are all good players and will undoubtly improve especially in decision making as they become the senior members of the midfield.
I still think we are missing someone who has genuine hardness and I feel our next draft will have to concentrate on this but the pieces are coming together nicely and we are a lot better team than most posters give us credit for.
You are right it takes time does take hard work and gametime to get the improvement in the end.

Also have young Rory Sloane who is a hardball type of guy. I think we've recruited well aiming to patch those holes but it's all speculative whether they turn out to be great players or not. Rendell has been a very good recruiter so far though. Time will tell! Hopefully by the end of the year Danger and Petrenko will be getting 22-25 possessions a game and around 5-10 contested possessions each. Would be good signs for the future.

 

[Hondo]

As one of the commentators on Sat night said, Geelong are a mature team. They have hard, strong bodies and are in their prime so they can be confident to run hard at their opponents.

The Brisbane Lions 2001-2003 were similarly "mature". Strong, experienced players are the key.

In fact, Geelong are nearing the end of their run which, in reality has been going since around 2004. Their problems were badly under-achieving in 2006 (fitness was one issue they fixed for 2007) and then picking the 2008 GF to have an off day. Otherwise they could easily be looking at a 3-peat.

But, just as Brisbane's run finished sooner that you would have thought based on their ages in 2003, I reckon Geelong will be past their best after this season. But they sure look good again this season.

What's my point? We are still at least 2 years away from this current squad maturing to that level but it's looking very promising

My fear with this year is that NC gets us into 8th spot where we likely lose another final and then out will come the anti-NC bridage in force!

 

[betterthanu]

My fear with this year is that NC gets us into 8th spot where we likely lose another final and then out will come the anti-NC bridage in force!

There will be a difference between a youth led 8th and the finals finishes of the past 2 years. Hopefully people recognize this if it eventuates.

 

[pjcrows]

RE: My "Knights bashing". I think it's pretty well-known that I'm not his biggest fan, and the reason why I put him there is because we're all talking about the need for an "elite" midfield. In my opinion, Knights is a handy player, but he would not be a part of a dominant midfield. He can't dispose of the pill properly, goes missing and is a step off the pace. A Melbourne based club would give us a Top 20 pick for him.

I don't think the Crows will get rid of him. And most people are massive fans of his, and that's fine. Just what I'm thinking.

Anyway, this isn't a Knights-bashing thread, so I digress.

 

[pjcrows]

There will be a difference between a youth led 8th and the finals finishes of the past 2 years. Hopefully people recognize this if it eventuates.

I think they will. Despite what the club says about "expecting to make the finals", they know us making the Top 8 this year will be a struggle. And so it should be - we're giving Walker, Petrenko, Otten and Dangerfield games, and using blokes like Shirley sparingly.

If we get in to the 8 this year it will likely be an away final, which we won't be expected to win.

 

[KUNG FU]

RE: My "Knights bashing". I think it's pretty well-known that I'm not his biggest fan, and the reason why I put him there is because we're all talking about the need for an "elite" midfield. In my opinion, Knights is a handy player, but he would not be a part of a dominant midfield. He can't dispose of the pill properly, goes missing and is a step off the pace. A Melbourne based club would give us a Top 20 pick for him.

I don't think the Crows will get rid of him. And most people are massive fans of his, and that's fine. Just what I'm thinking.

Anyway, this isn't a Knights-bashing thread, so I digress.

This year a top 20 pick definitely would not be worth it. In the next 2 years following the supply of high level draft picks would be far too thin for realistically expect market value.