Did the AFL drop the ball on women's footy?

[The Educator]

Just to testify the relative amount of resources put into the AFLW, this is a quote from the Guardian article about Casey Dumont, former Matilda's keeper......

Long-time Matildas squad member Casey Dumont was named Melbourne Victory’s players’ player of the year in May after a career-best season, but is now preparing for the upcoming AFLW season as a rookie for Hawthorn. The 31-year-old says the difference in professionalism between the codes is “huge”.

“One is through the roof because they’ve got the resources, they’ve got the money, they’ve got the backing of the nation, they’ve got the men’s competition which is successful,” she says. “And then you have the other.”

 

[iameviljez]

This was 26 years ago

Yep, and we lost. And it pushed soccer back eight years that we did so IMO

 

[The Educator]

Yep, and we lost. And it pushed soccer back eight years that we did so IMO

There was 85,000 there

And, despite apparently being pushed back 8 years, there was 85,000 again 4 years later (22 years ago)



Soccer is relatively no bigger in Aus than it was 25 years ago, certainly not in the context of how much the AFL and NRL have grown since then

 

[Soggy2112]

As Teen Wolf has noted, over 80% or AFLW players played junior footy.

What is the actual number? I’d be curious to know.

If it’s 20% that’s still heavily reliant, hard to imagine there’s too many professional sporting codes where that many of its players didn’t play the sport as a junior.

 

[The Educator]

What is the actual number? I’d be curious to know.

If it’s 20% that’s still heavily reliant, hard to imagine there’s too many professional sporting codes where that many of its players didn’t play the sport as a junior.

I don't know, need to ask Teen Wolf

I think the follow up question is what share of the best 22 of each team didn't play football as a junior (as opposed to category b type rookie spots)

Again, there are no other professional women's codes on the planet with anywhere near 540 roster spots. There may not be any others with more than 300

 

[Teen Wolf]

What is the actual number?

There are at least 442 (81.1%) on a current list who played football formally growing up (either in juniors, or as teenagers playing seniors). There are also 33 (6.1%) from Ireland.

545 list spots this season leaves, at most, 70 others (12.8%) who either didn't play it growing up, or I can't verify they did. Happy to just say all 70 didn't, hell of a lot more accurate than "half the league".

 

[Soggy2112]

There are at least 442 (81.1%) on a current list who played football formally growing up (either in juniors, or as teenagers playing seniors). There are also 33 (6.1%) from Ireland.

545 list spots this season leaves, at most, 70 others (12.8%) who either didn't play it growing up, or I can't verify they did. Happy to just say all 70 didn't, hell of a lot more accurate than "half the league".

I didn’t say half the league. Those numbers are still heavily reliant though, which is what I said, that’s 3 whole teams consisting of “non-footballers”.

Also with the players that did play junior football how many were in the category of played when they were younger, switched as a teenager because of lack of opportunity and have now come back to the game?

 

[Teen Wolf]

I didn’t say half the league.

I didn't say you did. Other posters in this thread did, that's why I corrected them.

Those numbers are still heavily reliant though, which is what I said, that’s 3 whole teams consisting of “non-footballers”.

No AFLW squad is heavily reliant on their bottom 5-6 players. Very few of these supposed "non-footballers" are likely to rise above that bottom 5-6 level. Most will probably be delisted after a year or 2 without getting a game, except for the Irish players.

Also with the players that did play junior football how many were in the category of played when they were younger, switched as a teenager because of lack of opportunity and have now come back to the game?

Aside from Erin Phillips?

 

[Soggy2112]

.


Aside from Erin Phillips?

That wasn’t meant as a dig, it was a genuine question.

I know a lot of the players in my own local club’s women’s team are in that boat.

 

[Teen Wolf]

That wasn’t meant as a dig, it was a genuine question.

There's really only one way to get a genuine answer to that genuinely reasonable question, which is to go through all the available records of current AFLW players alphabetically and make a case-by-case judgment call. First cab off the rank:

ADELAIDE CROWS

Allan, Jess (26/5/1999)

HATHERLEIGH​	GP	G	BP​
JUNIOR COLTS 2012	12	-	2

HATHERLEIGH​	GP	G	BP
Junior Colts 2013	16	2	4

SOUTH AUSTRALIA​	GP	G	BP
2014 Youth Girls National Championships Pool B	4	-	-

U16 GLENELG GIRLS​	GP	G	BP
2015 SANFL U16 Girls Competition	3	1	1

SALISBURY​	GP	G	BP
2015 Open Womens Division 1	9	-	2

SOUTH AUSTRALIA​	GP	G	BP
2015 National U18YG Championships Pool B	4	-	-

SALISBURY​	GP	G	BP
2016 National 1 Plumbing Open Womens Division 1	9	-	3

SOUTH AUSTRALIA​	GP	G	BP
2016 National U18YG Championships Pool B	3	-	-

ALLIES​	GP	G	BP
2017 NAB AFLW U18s National Championships	3	1	3

SOUTH AUSTRALIA​	GP	G	BP
2017 NAB AFLW U18s National Championships	2	1	2

SALISBURY​	GP	G	BP
2017 National 1 Plumbing Womens Division 1	8	2	5

GLENELG SANFL WOMENS​	GP	G	BP
2017 SANFL Statewide Super Womens League	5	-	3

Played all the way through and then drafted to the league as an 18-year-old.

But at age 19 she missed a season due to army commitments. Then played 2 seasons with GWS, then missed another 2 seasons with more army commitments. Now back playing for Adelaide this season.

Therefore I guess she's also somebody who left football as a teenager and came back to the game later?? So which category do we put her in, idk. Damn, this could take a while!

 

[iameviljez]

Soccer is relatively no bigger in Aus than it was 25 years ago, certainly not in the context of how much the AFL and NRL have grown since then

Soccer has over double the number of AFL participants nowadays (see Sports injury in Australia, Sports participation and rates of injury - Australian Institute of Health and Welfare). If that was the case in 1998, I'll go heave.

 

[Roogene]

AFLW is just an awful product. AFL is IMO the hardest game in the world to play and most woman are just not suited to it.

Watching AFLW is like watching u9 footy, just a rolling maul. The woman'w world cup was good, the skills are high but we are seeing the best of the best. As the best players go overseas I suspect the Womans A league is not that great but it has the advantage of the international appeal.

If you had less AFLW teams you might get a decent game to watch now and again but the AFL and the clubs are hell bent on expansion.

There has been plenty of money being thrown around but with the economy tanking AFLW may find the money dries up as reality bites for a lot of people re cost of living. The men are not going to sacrifice to fund it and why should they, they are lucky if they get 10 years in the game.

 

[iameviljez]

But at age 19 she missed a season due to army commitments. Then played 2 seasons with GWS, then missed another 2 seasons with more army commitments. Now back playing for Adelaide this season.

Therefore I guess she's also somebody who left football as a teenager and came back to the game later?? So which category do we put her in, idk. Damn, this could take a while!

Not to mention that I bet most of the male juniors would average between 15 and 20 games per season, and none of them would have missed three years from the game entirely.

 

[The Educator]

Soccer has over double the number of AFL participants nowadays (see Sports injury in Australia, Sports participation and rates of injury - Australian Institute of Health and Welfare). If that was the case in 1998, I'll go heave.

In 1996/97 there were an estimated 208.6K boys aged 5 to 14 playing organised outdoor soccer compared to 183.7K kids playing aus football

4102.0 - Australian Social Trends, 1999

www.abs.gov.au

In the most recent ausplay survey 2022 the number of boys aged 5 to 14 playing organised soccer (including outdoor, indoor and futsal) was 482K compared to 315K for aus football.

Microsoft Power BI

app.powerbi.com

So even on the most generous assumption of the share of those numbers that are indoor / futsal, in 25 years we've gone from 15% more kids playing outdoor soccer to 25%. This in a period of high and sustained migration.

 

[peetoo]

Temper that with the fact you can’t go see Australia’s best soccer players live every week in australia

Men’s or women’s.

 

[Walshawk]

I think the current situation with AFLW was inevitable. It is unlikely to ever be able to pay for itself, even at today’s player salaries. We should not be surprised at this. AFL is a hard game to play. Women’s soccer looks pretty much the same as men’s, as does basketball, cricket and even NRL. AFLW looks nothing like an AFL game, or even a fourth division suburban match. It just isn’t good to watch. Perhaps the skills required just don’t suit women. We can’t expect that there are 460 really good female footballers out there, and there won’t be for a long time. Would there even be 100? 18 teams is ridiculous.

Perhaps the AFL should have gone with six to eight non club teams - Perth, SA/NT, NSW, QLD, Vic county, Melbourne South/Tas playing out of Frankston, Melbourne Nth West playing out of Carlton, and Melbourne East based at Punt Rd.

 

[The Educator]

I think the current situation with AFLW was inevitable. It is unlikely to ever be able to pay for itself, even at today’s player salaries. We should not be surprised at this. AFL is a hard game to play. Women’s soccer looks pretty much the same as men’s, as does basketball, cricket and even NRL. AFLW looks nothing like an AFL game, or even a fourth division suburban match. It just isn’t good to watch. Perhaps the skills required just don’t suit women. We can’t expect that there are 460 really good female footballers out there, and there won’t be for a long time. Would there even be 100? 18 teams is ridiculous.

Perhaps the AFL should have gone with six to eight non club teams - Perth, SA/NT, NSW, QLD, Vic county, Melbourne South/Tas playing out of Frankston, Melbourne Nth West playing out of Carlton, and Melbourne East based at Punt Rd.

Agree that Australian football is a much harder game to play. Even at its most elite level it is a messier and more chaotic game than other codes. The skill requirement is higher and it is both 360 degrees and full contact.

In essence, it is a game of contest. Unlike other codes, the game restarts with a neutral contest for the ball. Outside of marks and free kicks, the ball is permanently being contested. Displays of skill are the icing rather than the essence.

It is also a very tribal game. There is no representative adult elite component at all and so it is all experience through tribal connection to clubs.

The AFLW will improve massively as a spectacle but ultimately the game is set precisely because it already has expanded to all 18 clubs. As it consolidates, player movement slows down, and it settles into its new timeslot, it will just go from strength to strength from now.

 

[Footy Smarts]

It’s half watchable even if the Matilda’s would lose to Newcastle Jets under 15’s, AFLW is like watching local div4 seconds.

This "OMG they would get thrashed by a men's junior team" really isn't the zinger those criticising the Matildas seem to think it is. It's just physical reality and says nothing about the skill or commitment levels.

Thankfully we've graduated far enough to be able to watch Sally Pierson or Ariarne Titmus without needing to degrade them constantly by pointing out their best times don't match junior men's times (eg Sally Pierson's best 100m flat time is 0.3s outside the Australian under 15 boys record). The vast majority have reached that point with the Matildas and AFLW too.

 

[jdstorm]

I think the current situation with AFLW was inevitable. It is unlikely to ever be able to pay for itself, even at today’s player salaries. We should not be surprised at this. AFL is a hard game to play. Women’s soccer looks pretty much the same as men’s, as does basketball, cricket and even NRL. AFLW looks nothing like an AFL game, or even a fourth division suburban match. It just isn’t good to watch. Perhaps the skills required just don’t suit women. We can’t expect that there are 460 really good female footballers out there, and there won’t be for a long time. Would there even be 100? 18 teams is ridiculous.

Perhaps the AFL should have gone with six to eight non club teams - Perth, SA/NT, NSW, QLD, Vic county, Melbourne South/Tas playing out of Frankston, Melbourne Nth West playing out of Carlton, and Melbourne East based at Punt

Oh please AFL is pretty much netball where you have to use your feet and contact is encouraged rather then penalised. Girls have been playing it (netball) for a hundred years.

similar junior pathways will produce similarly skilled players yet only one sex has had access to these pathways until recently. Your comparing an established professional league that trains children for 10+ years to find the 500 or so best players in any given year vs a semi professional league without those same pathways and wonder why the quality is lower.

The buisness case for women’s sport is integration. People watch it across all codes and sports. Fans have longstanding loyalties and won’t jump to a bargain bin competition, (which is why the WNBA is rubbish) but they will support women who play for their club.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

The buisness case for women’s sport is integration. People watch it across all codes and sports. Fans have longstanding loyalties and won’t jump to a bargain bin competition, (which is why the WNBA is rubbish) but they will support women who play for their club.

I can only give myself as an example as a counter to that, but FWIW…

I truly love the club I support, but I am pushed for time in my life and already don’t get to nearly as many Swans men’s games as I like.

I have resolved to see a couple of AFLW games this season and am looking forward to it.

I am delighted we now have a team in the W comp, but the sheer awfulness of their first season, in a comp already not noted for its awesome skills and power, means I have strong misgivings whether my support for the Swans gals will end up as anything more than mere lip service.

Hopefully I can report back more positively after experiencing a few games live!

 

[Canberra Pear]

I actually think they expanded relatively well. Only major gripe was the quick expansion after only half a year off.

I was invested from the start (I adopted GWS), but there would have been a decent chunk that didn't get invested until their team was in. You can't expect Port or West Coast fans to get on board when they only local footy is their arch rival.

As for talent dilution, I don't buy it. Season seven looked great to me. And the stats back it up. I reckon a S7 bottom-four team probably would've made the grand final in season one. And scoring looks to have increased. The top placed team's average score has increased from 35 to 55.

Another preseason down, more kids drafted who have actually played the whole way through. I reckon this season will be great. Can't wait.

 

[jdstorm]

I can only give myself as an example as a counter to that, but FWIW…

I truly love the club I support, but I am pushed for time in my life and already don’t get to nearly as many Swans men’s games as I like.

I have resolved to see a couple of AFLW games this season and am looking forward to it.

I am delighted we now have a team in the W comp, but the sheer awfulness of their first season, in a comp already not noted for its awesome skills and power, means I have strong misgivings whether my support for the Swans gals will end up as anything more than mere lip service.

Hopefully I can report back more positively after experiencing a few games live!

See to me that you actually watched a game and refer to the idea of having a WAFL team as delightful is a big reason as to why integration works.

Would you make even this minimal effort for as a team called the Sydney Sparks? That’s a different Org

You will likely click on the news articles on the swans website and get to know the team and the players (at least the swans ones) over time and may attend games every so often.

The quality will improve but it will take time for the effects of professionalism to fully transform the game*

* and even that’s no guarantee of watchable games ie Westcoast, North and Essendon this season

 

[Teen Wolf]

I can only give myself as an example as a counter to that, but FWIW…

I truly love the club I support, but I am pushed for time in my life and already don’t get to nearly as many Swans men’s games as I like.

I have resolved to see a couple of AFLW games this season and am looking forward to it.

I am delighted we now have a team in the W comp, but the sheer awfulness of their first season, in a comp already not noted for its awesome skills and power, means I have strong misgivings whether my support for the Swans gals will end up as anything more than mere lip service.

Hopefully I can report back more positively after experiencing a few games live!

Think it's entirely reasonable to file Chloe Molloy, now a Swan, under "awesome skill and power".



Sydney lost a game against Essendon (who finished 10th) last AFLW season in the same fashion that Adelaide lost to Sydney on the weekend, so they weren't as bad as the 0-win tally suggests. Plus their no.1 pick missed a chunk of games... although that will likely be the case again this season.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

See to me that you actually watched a game and refer to the idea of having a WAFL team as delightful is a big reason as to why integration works.

Would you make even this minimal effort for as a team called the Sydney Sparks? That’s a different Org

You will likely click on the news articles on the swans website and get to know the team and the players (at least the swans ones) over time and may attend games every so often.

The quality will improve but it will take time for the effects of professionalism to fully transform the game*

* and even that’s no guarantee of watchable games ie Westcoast, North and Essendon this season

I hope so. I’m just being honest at this stage and saying I really can’t say how I’m going to feel. People engage with footy in varying degrees. For me with the men’s, it’s going to games when I can, watching them on telly when I can, shooting the schitte about the footy on BF. But that’s about all the time I can afford.

 

[SBD Gonzalez]

Think it's entirely reasonable to file Chloe Molloy, now a Swan, under "awesome skill and power".



Sydney lost a game against Essendon (who finished 10th) last AFLW season in the same fashion that Adelaide lost to Sydney on the weekend, so they weren't as bad as the 0-win tally suggests. Plus their no.1 pick missed a chunk of games... although that will likely be the case again this season.

Yeah look I’m absolutely not saying the W is all crap. There are some great moments. I’m all for it.

Simply setting out, as a supporter with a busy outside life, the sort of time and energy decisions I have to make.

PS yes I’m sure Sydney will be much more competitive this year, but scoring one point in an entire game of football was truly awful.