Current Disappearance of 3yo William Tyrrell *Homicide gets an AVO *Foster parents face charges of assaults, stalking, intimidation & lying

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Kurve

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Criminal charges the former foster parents currently face as at 15 April 2022 include:
  • Apprehended Violence Orders on both (AVOs)
  • Lying to the NSW Crime Commission on both
  • 2 x charges of assault against a child on former foster mother
  • 1 x charge of assault against a child on former foster father
  • Stalking &/or Intimidation on both
Where's William Tyrrell? - The Ch 10 podcast (under Coroner's subpoena)
Operation Arkstone
 

Liandra

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Hi there, could you post the Jubelin article on where he investigated the balcony theory, I would be very interested in reading it. Cheers
There's no link because it was said in a different setting, his podcast live tour. He said he had investigated the balcony theory and it was also investigated by the original detective. He didn't elaborate on how it was investigated, only that he was very confident William didn't fall from the balcony.
 

stormbird

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There's no link because it was said in a different setting, his podcast live tour. He said he had investigated the balcony theory and it was also investigated by the original detective. He didn't elaborate on how it was investigated, only that he was very confident William didn't fall from the balcony.
Liandra, do you know whether it was Hans Rupp who is regarded as the "original" detective or did Jubelin mean the Mid North Coast Local Area Command detectives?
 
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stormbird

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William Harrie Spedding v State of New South Wales (case number 2019/00289937 ) is listed* for a hearing in the NSW Supreme Court, Sydney, on Wed 17 August 2022. Justice Ian Harrison will be presiding again and I think it's the same case number as before, so I wonder why it's listed as a hearing? (Or is that the way a judgment is listed in a civil case?) Back in May 2022 the ABC reported that the next step would be the judgment:

Bill Spedding has made his case for malicious prosecution, now he waits for a judge's decision, ABC News, 6 May 2022

*If you want to see the listing, the only way I know is to go to the NSW Online Registry, then:
  • click "I'm not a robot"
  • do the security check
  • click the "Online Registry" link
  • choose the "Court Lists" tab
  • enter the case number or BS's name, change the date to "All available dates", and click "Search"
 

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fazacs1

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There's no link because it was said in a different setting, his podcast live tour. He said he had investigated the balcony theory and it was also investigated by the original detective. He didn't elaborate on how it was investigated, only that he was very confident William didn't fall from the balcony.
Thank you for that
 

NRL Fan

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All possible.

My personal read on it all is that head of Homicide told them that upon Jubelin leaving they review the entire case, attend to coroner's requests and shelve as cold case. I think the balcony and possible burial were educated guesses based on that review and last throw of dice.
I can't believe they would spend such large sums of money and devote all of those resources as a last throw. You would hope they had something to justify that final search.
 

31550

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Was there pressure from New South Welshman to solve this crime?

I'm in Victoria, all my family in WA, and no one I know has any expectation that this case would be solved.
Federal election. Following the Cleo Smith case and publicity in WA, suddenly after 7 years the AFP step in and offer resources including GPR to the NSW cops. Lots of marginal seats in NSW. Looks good if the Feds can claim credit for solving WT case. Didn't pan out of course.
 

Awakening

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Federal election. Following the Cleo Smith case and publicity in WA, suddenly after 7 years the AFP step in and offer resources including GPR to the NSW cops. Lots of marginal seats in NSW. Looks good if the Feds can claim credit for solving WT case. Didn't pan out of course.

Interesting. I just never saw it as an election issue. Sadly, I don't think most people are that interested. At least not to the point where it would influence their vote. But maybe it's different in NSW.
 

stormbird

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It would be interesting to review all of the evidence that the police have that points to the balcony fall, including why it took 8 years to emerge. Whatever it is, it must be good enough for the police to spend a small fortune searching for remains within a defined area. I suppose it is possible that the FGM gave up the secret before her death and a 3rd party has secretly come forward, or perhaps LT has had some memories that were shared with police.
It would be interesting to review all of the evidence that the police have, full stop. I don't understand how it can have taken seven years to get around to thinking FM is the only person of interest. I've always been willing to believe that her account of the morning is open to question, even lots of questions, but the theatrics of the Nov/Dec 2021 police searches made me more suspicious about the credibility of the strike force, not her.
 

31550

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Interesting. I just never saw it as an election issue. Sadly, I don't think most people are that interested. At least not to the point where it would influence their vote. But maybe it's different in NSW.
Sadly, election decisions are fuelled by public opinion, which is driven by mainstream media. Politicians like to get their photo on the front page alongside heroic figures like firefighters and police if it's a 'good news' story. Imagine if the AFP had uncovered some breakthrough evidence - I guarantee politicians would have been flocking to take the credit.
 

31550

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I have this written down in 'my' timeline, but unfortunately don't have a source:

The Crabbs arrived home between 9:30 and 9:35. (They did not see any cars on the street). Then they had tea on their back deck.
While having tea, they both "heard a car turn around", thinking it was the postie, according to the inquest. The car came up fast, sounded like it turned around then drove off. No doors were heard closing, consistent with postie assumption.

Mr Crabb thought it was about 10 minutes after getting home (so, around 9:40 to 9:45)

Mrs Crabb thought it was about 40 minutes after getting home ( so, around 10:00 to 10:05)

We know that the car heard could not have been the postie, because the postie delivered early that morning (before Crabbs got home).

Could this have been the car FM said she saw turn around with LT while they were riding bikes?
Could this have been FM taking FGM car out to "look for William"?
Could this have been an abductor?
Or, could this have been just some random person driving up Benaroon, not realising it was a dead-end, and then driving off?
Thinking about this a bit more - what if the Crabbs were both right, and heard FM both leaving and returning in FGM car?
Not sure what sort of car the postie drives, but would it make a similar sound in the FGM driveway? The sound of "turning around" may have been FM reversing out of the driveway and going down Benaroon, and/or returning home and parking?

If so, then this fits the known timeline: last photos taken, William runs round side of house, FM follows - they go round the front of the house all the way to the driveway, get in FGM car, drive off. FGM returns after 30 minutes, parks car, walks round to verandah where FGM is still reading paper. Says, "how about a cuppa?", makes tea, then says, "Oh, where's William I haven't seen him?". This way FGM thinks he's only been missing 5 minutes - assumes they were playing Daddy Tiger in the front yard. For this to work, William's sister would have needed to be totally engrossed in drawing or card-making for 30 minutes or so to not notice William was gone. Possible?
 

stormbird

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Thinking about this a bit more - what if the Crabbs were both right, and heard FM both leaving and returning in FGM car?
Not sure what sort of car the postie drives, but would it make a similar sound in the FGM driveway? The sound of "turning around" may have been FM reversing out of the driveway and going down Benaroon, and/or returning home and parking?

If so, then this fits the known timeline: last photos taken, William runs round side of house, FM follows - they go round the front of the house all the way to the driveway, get in FGM car, drive off. FGM returns after 30 minutes, parks car, walks round to verandah where FGM is still reading paper. Says, "how about a cuppa?", makes tea, then says, "Oh, where's William I haven't seen him?". This way FGM thinks he's only been missing 5 minutes - assumes they were playing Daddy Tiger in the front yard. For this to work, William's sister would have needed to be totally engrossed in drawing or card-making for 30 minutes or so to not notice William was gone. Possible?
It would be possible, IMO, if the Cs could hear vehicles from wherever they were. On their back deck at No.51 they would have been roughly 100 metres away from FGM's and around the other side of their house, so if they could hear FM driving out, FGM and William's sister should have heard it too (and maybe no one said otherwise? I haven't seen any report about this). If FGM's car was parked in the carport (which to me seems the most likely spot), it would have been only about 10 or so metres away from the back deck at FGM's, and FGM's chair would have been facing across the north-eastern open end of the carport.

From the Chumley book (Searching for Spiderman, 2020, p.89) where "Anna" is a pseudonym for FM, "Nancy" for FGM, and "Lindsay" for William's sister:

"[after meeting AMS at No.31, which in my opinion is probably not correct] Anna went back to Nancy's and got her mother's car, a dark grey Mazda. She explained her rationale at the inquest.
'In case he had gone down the hill, I thought that would find him quicker in the car. I got my mother's car keys which were on the kitchen bench.' She went on to say she drove out onto Benaroon Drive towards Batar Creek Road while Nancy stayed near the house, looking after Lindsay."


Unless FM had taken the car keys with her while first searching on foot, she would have needed to enter the house to get the keys from the kitchen - the room with the window facing onto the back deck, right behind the sitting FGM's head. AFAIK no one has reported whether the outer doors of the house were kept closed or locked. If the doors were unlocked, I think FM (or potentially William) could have entered or left the house via the front staircase (off the upper driveway), the carport door (into the corridor near their bedrooms), the sliding doors on the verandah/balcony (via the steps near the clothesline) or the back deck, where presumably FGM and William's sister were sitting for an extended period (and as Lindsay was an active four-year-old, IMO it's harder to believe she might have been happy to sit there drawing or colouring for so long).
 

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NRL Fan

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Thinking about this a bit more - what if the Crabbs were both right, and heard FM both leaving and returning in FGM car?
Not sure what sort of car the postie drives, but would it make a similar sound in the FGM driveway? The sound of "turning around" may have been FM reversing out of the driveway and going down Benaroon, and/or returning home and parking?

If so, then this fits the known timeline: last photos taken, William runs round side of house, FM follows - they go round the front of the house all the way to the driveway, get in FGM car, drive off. FGM returns after 30 minutes, parks car, walks round to verandah where FGM is still reading paper. Says, "how about a cuppa?", makes tea, then says, "Oh, where's William I haven't seen him?". This way FGM thinks he's only been missing 5 minutes - assumes they were playing Daddy Tiger in the front yard. For this to work, William's sister would have needed to be totally engrossed in drawing or card-making for 30 minutes or so to not notice William was gone. Possible?
Did the postie ever get interviewed ?. Maybe he hit WT in the driveway whilst turning around ?
 

CodyRose

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Thinking about this a bit more - what if the Crabbs were both right, and heard FM both leaving and returning in FGM car?
Not sure what sort of car the postie drives, but would it make a similar sound in the FGM driveway? The sound of "turning around" may have been FM reversing out of the driveway and going down Benaroon, and/or returning home and parking?

If so, then this fits the known timeline: last photos taken, William runs round side of house, FM follows - they go round the front of the house all the way to the driveway, get in FGM car, drive off. FGM returns after 30 minutes, parks car, walks round to verandah where FGM is still reading paper. Says, "how about a cuppa?", makes tea, then says, "Oh, where's William I haven't seen him?". This way FGM thinks he's only been missing 5 minutes - assumes they were playing Daddy Tiger in the front yard. For this to work, William's sister would have needed to be totally engrossed in drawing or card-making for 30 minutes or so to not notice William was gone. Possible?
Yes, also maybe William walked off down the road to look for "ff" was picked up down the road a bit and then the car heard by the Crabbs drove up fast to turn around.
 

fazacs1

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So listening to the podcast “Little Boy Lost”, with the FPS talking and FM talks about opening the sliding doors on the front verandah that look down Benaroon, when she woke up, and walking out onto the verandah she spotted the 2 cars on the road with their driver windows down, she remembers thinking that’s odd! That’s weird! They have breakfast get dressed and later when playing with WT in the front yard, playing chasings, looks over her shoulder and they are still there, again she thinks that’s weird and odd! I’ve never seen anyone parked there, ever. But when WT goes missing and she almost immediately thinks he has been abducted, but forgets and fails to mention in her 000 call or to the police or FGM or FF, about these 2 cars that were there for such a long time and she thought was weird and odd. IMO that is ALARM BELLS, right there.
 

fazacs1

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FF also says in that podcast, he got back from town and drove in the garage and then his wife appeared with Williams sister and asked if William was with him and he said “um no, he’s not with me, I’ve only just home, I’ve only just got back”, that’s when my wife said “I can’t find him, we can’t find him”, that’s when I immediately launched out of the car and began looking furiously.
So, FF says drove in the garage, not carport, not driveway, but garage. (Not something you would think a man would mistake) So the first PO on the scene states he didn’t check the manhole or garage, as the garage was locked and looked to heavy for William to open. BUT, FF launched out of the car looking for William, but closed and locked the garage door behind him and if you drove into the garage, it would suggest that the door was already open. MOO, I just assumed watching the FF walkthrough that he had parked in the top driveway where the carport is, by the way he was near the back deck and was saying he was just here, he was just here. But the garage is on the bottom driveway. Thoughts anyone?
 

stormbird

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So listening to the podcast “Little Boy Lost”, with the FPS talking and FM talks about opening the sliding doors on the front verandah that look down Benaroon, when she woke up, and walking out onto the verandah she spotted the 2 cars on the road with their driver windows down, she remembers thinking that’s odd! That’s weird! They have breakfast get dressed and later when playing with WT in the front yard, playing chasings, looks over her shoulder and they are still there, again she thinks that’s weird and odd! I’ve never seen anyone parked there, ever. But when WT goes missing and she almost immediately thinks he has been abducted, but forgets and fails to mention in her 000 call or to the police or FGM or FF, about these 2 cars that were there for such a long time and she thought was weird and odd. IMO that is ALARM BELLS, right there.
It's never made any sense that the police acted as if those two cars were there. The only way to believe they were there was to reject the evidence of everyone who said they weren't.

1. FM, a witness in the middle of the worst day of her life (I'm guessing), only remembering the cars later, over years, changing details here and there;
versus
2. her husband, and her mother, and the neighbours just going about their everyday lives (in a street where unfamiliar vehicles would be unusual), several of whom went right past where the cars should have been, and not one of them said the cars were there.

So police chose to believe FM's version.
 
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Story

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FF also says in that podcast, he got back from town and drove in the garage and then his wife appeared with Williams sister and asked if William was with him and he said “um no, he’s not with me, I’ve only just home, I’ve only just got back”, that’s when my wife said “I can’t find him, we can’t find him”, that’s when I immediately launched out of the car and began looking furiously.
So, FF says drove in the garage, not carport, not driveway, but garage. (Not something you would think a man would mistake) So the first PO on the scene states he didn’t check the manhole or garage, as the garage was locked and looked to heavy for William to open. BUT, FF launched out of the car looking for William, but closed and locked the garage door behind him and if you drove into the garage, it would suggest that the door was already open. MOO, I just assumed watching the FF walkthrough that he had parked in the top driveway where the carport is, by the way he was near the back deck and was saying he was just here, he was just here. But the garage is on the bottom driveway. Thoughts anyone?
I thought JS parked on the drive way - if he has said he drove in to the garage that's a wow moment for me. Do you have a time point to where JS says that ? Thanks, I just don't have time to listen to the whole podcast right now.
 

fazacs1

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I thought JS parked on the drive way - if he has said he drove in to the garage that's a wow moment for me. Do you have a time point to where JS says that ? Thanks, I just don't have time to listen to the whole podcast right now.
I thought the same, it s in the “Little Boy Lost” podcast, interview with Williams parents, at about the 5 minute mark, I had to rewind ⏪ and listen again and FF says garage. On Spotify, have a listen.
 

Lady O

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I thought the same, it s in the “Little Boy Lost” podcast, interview with Williams parents, at about the 5 minute mark, I had to rewind ⏪ and listen again and FF says garage. On Spotify, have a listen.

Yeah, I would take that with a pinch of salt. If he drove into the lower driveway, he would have needed to get out and open the roller door and then close it as he left to search for WT. In which case, his car would have still been in there when the Police arrived 20mins later. I think the carport could also be called the garage as it's only open at each end, and if the first vehicle was pulled forward the second one would almost fit behind.
 

stormbird

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I thought the same, it s in the “Little Boy Lost” podcast, interview with Williams parents, at about the 5 minute mark, I had to rewind ⏪ and listen again and FF says garage. On Spotify, have a listen.
There's also a copy on YouTube in an archive of videos about the case.
The following link should go to 4:30 mins where Lia introduces FF's return to the house:
AUDIO_D&ST_5: William's Mum and Dad Speak - Part 1, YouTube, 12 Oct 2015, edited transcript by me:

FF: "I'd just finished doing what I was doing in town, near Laurieton, and had driven back, and I drove in the garage, and then my wife appeared with William's sister, and she looked at me and she said 'Is William with you?'"
 

stormbird

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Yeah, I would take that with a pinch of salt. If he drove into the lower driveway, he would have needed to get out and open the roller door and then close it as he left to search for WT. In which case, his car would have still been in there when the Police arrived 20mins later. I think the carport could also be called the garage as it's only open at each end, and if the first vehicle was pulled forward the second one would almost fit behind.

I agree that FF might have used the word "garage" to mean the carport area. But he used the word "carport" in this (in my opinion weird) part of his walk-through video when talking about the next-door neighbour's house:

Moments before William Tyrrell's disappearance described by father, Daily Mail on YouTube, 24 March 2019
from 2:08 mins - my transcript and descriptions but they might be muddled:

FF had been describing his searches.
Detective: So... [points uphill behind FF towards the cubby or shed in the backyard of No.52] You've checked that doll house over there?
FF: [turns to look while talking and pointing] I then... Yep, absolutely. [pointing with his left arm at each area in turn] Went through there, went through there, [pointing at the No.52 house] went underneath their house, went around their house, went in their-- [turns back to face the camera] went in their--their--their, ah -- [turns briefly to point towards the house again] because they weren't home... [turns back to face the camera]
Detective: Yep
FF: I went in their ah-- in their ah carport [starts repeatedly brushing his upper right arm with his left hand], they've got a caravan in there, it's all locked away... [stops brushing] ah, I went in there, I checked under there...
Detective: And that was locked?
FF: Ah, caravan was locked - yeah, absolutely.

So, in the other interview mentioned by fazacs1, if FF did mean the carport area at FGM's I think it does seem a bit odd that he said "garage", MOO.
 

Story

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I agree that FF might have used the word "garage" to mean the carport area. But he used the word "carport" in this (in my opinion weird) part of his walk-through video when talking about the next-door neighbour's house:

Moments before William Tyrrell's disappearance described by father, Daily Mail on YouTube, 24 March 2019
from 2:08 mins - my transcript and descriptions but they might be muddled:

FF had been describing his searches.
Detective: So... [points uphill behind FF towards the cubby or shed in the backyard of No.52] You've checked that doll house over there?
FF: [turns to look while talking and pointing] I then... Yep, absolutely. [pointing with his left arm at each area in turn] Went through there, went through there, [pointing at the No.52 house] went underneath their house, went around their house, went in their-- [turns back to face the camera] went in their--their--their, ah -- [turns briefly to point towards the house again] because they weren't home... [turns back to face the camera]
Detective: Yep
FF: I went in their ah-- in their ah carport [starts repeatedly brushing his upper right arm with his left hand], they've got a caravan in there, it's all locked away... [stops brushing] ah, I went in there, I checked under there...
Detective: And that was locked?
FF: Ah, caravan was locked - yeah, absolutely.

So, in the other interview mentioned by fazacs1, if FF did mean the carport area at FGM's I think it does seem a bit odd that he said "garage", MOO.
Read this after my post. Nice find!
 
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Lady O

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It's around the 5:32 mark. He does say garage. I do find that a little odd because he is a real estate agent so I would have expected him to say carport if he meant carport. In part 2 of the podcast (I didn't listen to much of the podcasts this morning, just a couple of random clicks on time marks), he describes how the kids would normally run out when he pulled into the driveway at home in Sydney (he doesn't say garage or carport when he means driveway.)

So, by saying he has parked in the garage, he has not just parked in the driveway at FGM's house. Again, I really would expect him to say carport if he meant carport As a real estate agent and I would expect him to use correct terms. (Unless he is the kind of agent that is in the habit of overselling carports as garages! Which is possible.)

I still don't have a transcript of what the first LE officer said when he arrived. I was looking for it when I was trying to find the reference about him finding that the tea was still warm enough to drink. I found, on another chat history though, that someone said it wasn't the tea that he said was still warm, but that he had touched the bonnet of the car and found that the engine was still warm - again it is just what someone on a chat said. If that was JS's car (or was it FGM's car) it means it was in the open - again there is no transcript to check which car, or if it was the tea that was warm. (Random thought: if it were FGM's car that had a warm engine did the police ask about that and that is why she said that she drove to Batar Creek Rd? If so, I don't think that would be far enough for FGM's car engine to get very warm). So if it were JS's car, it had either been moved out of the garage by someone and the garage locked (which is very much a 'wow' thing to do as fazacs1 post point out) or he is in the habit of overselling carports as garages and the car was parked under the carport behind FGM's car (as Lady O has said: it would fit). He knows FGM's house has a garage as well as a carport - so why confuse the two when talking about the day's events.

Well, I'm thinking that a place for a car that was attached and in the same style as the house and built at the same time as the house, might be called, incorrectly, a 'garage' even by a real estate agent. I have seen many enclosed verandah's, (sleepouts) listed incorrectly as 'bedrooms', or 'family rooms', 'dining rooms', etc, etc by real estate agents.

From memory, someone recently posted a quote when the Police arrived they did not look under the house because the roller door was down and they didn't think WT could have lifted it to get inside and closed it up again. OTOH, if JS came back and left his car under the house in the area where the lower driveway was, he also needed to have closed the roller door behind him, otherwise the Police would have found it open when they arrived and his car inside. According to both, SD met him when he pulled in and asked him if he had WT with him, whereupon he immediately raced off calling out his name and frantically searching. It doesn't make sense that he put it under the house behind the roller door.
 

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