Do it for Bucks

[Lonie_from_50]

Why isn't Harvey ever mentioned with the great 3?

He has won 2 brownlows, a few b&fs, many AA awards, best on ground for Victoria, he has played for both Australia and Victoria. Played more games than any of the other 3. The reason why he's not up there with the greats is because he's never won a premiership and up until recently St.Kilda have been the laughin stock of the AFL.

Switch Harvey with any of the other 3 and their teams success would be no different maybe even better. He is still a quality midfielder even though he is the oldest player in the league go back and watch the firstt final against Adelaide in 05 to see that he is still a great great player. He has more brownlow votes then the other 3. I'm not entirely sure but I would think he got more votes than the other 3 with 12 this year aswell which is quite an effort considering he has to compete with the like of Riewoldt and Dal Santo.

It is an absolute disgrace that Robert Harvey is not considered mongst the top 2 or 3 players of his era and my opionion can't even be considered bias because i don't like him because he's a St.Kilda player i like St.Kilda because he has Harvey, that man individually turned me from soccer to footy. If he does not win a premiership this year I think he should be awarded some sort of lfetime achievment award.

We all know how good Harvey is, yet he isn't debated because the debate was more based on these three as they are the same age bracket, and careers started at around about the same time (92-93).

 

[Lonie_from_50]

Coolingwood supporters in this thread have much better arguements, essendon supporters just talk ******** , no statistics to back anything they say up.

Essendon supporter = bandwagon supporter

Thought I would just quote this, and also, nobody still has found me a quote of the over-used generalisation that Buckley left to play in finals etc. I have given 3-4 sources of information, and the most common still hasn't had a source, nor a concrete quote...

 

[DapperDon]

Why isn't Harvey ever mentioned with the great 3?

He has won 2 brownlows, a few b&fs, many AA awards, best on ground for Victoria, he has played for both Australia and Victoria. Played more games than any of the other 3. The reason why he's not up there with the greats is because he's never won a premiership and up until recently St.Kilda have been the laughin stock of the AFL.

Switch Harvey with any of the other 3 and their teams success would be no different maybe even better. He is still a quality midfielder even though he is the oldest player in the league go back and watch the firstt final against Adelaide in 05 to see that he is still a great great player. He has more brownlow votes then the other 3. I'm not entirely sure but I would think he got more votes than the other 3 with 12 this year aswell which is quite an effort considering he has to compete with the like of Riewoldt and Dal Santo.

It is an absolute disgrace that Robert Harvey is not considered mongst the top 2 or 3 players of his era and my opionion can't even be considered bias because i don't like him because he's a St.Kilda player i like St.Kilda because he has Harvey, that man individually turned me from soccer to footy. If he does not win a premiership this year I think he should be awarded some sort of lfetime achievment award.

I think you'll find that people who know AFL better than others rank Harvs next to or even above the 3 mentioned, he's the only reason i want Saints to win a flag, and my most respected football player not from Essendon.

 

[Lonie_from_50]

I think you'll find that people who know AFL better than others rank Harvs next to or even above the 3 mentioned, he's the only reason i want Saints to win a flag, and my most respected football player not from Essendon.

Can't agree more. I couldn't really put it in words before.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Harvey - Lack of ability in kicking goals, Disposal and Leadership put him below Hird and Voss but on level pegging with Bucks.. or even slightly below Bucks

 

[The Fireman]

Harvey - Lack of ability in kicking goals, Disposal and Leadership put him below Hird and Voss but on level pegging with Bucks.. or even slightly below Bucks

Check out this dual Brownlow medalist Kelvin and have another think about it.

PS Hird my most respected player outside of the Saints.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

My final words of this topic. This is why I don't rank Bucks and for that matter Harvey in the class of Hird, Voss, Carey.

I have never seen Bucks go head first in to a pack with complete disregard for ones safety and win the contested ball like Hird.
I have never seen Bucks walk off the ground with his face completely smashed in like Hird at Subiaco.
I have never seen Bucks do a 40m handball like Voss.
I have never seen Bucks lay a crunching bump or tackle like Voss.
I have never seen Bucks split a pack open and take a contested mark and kick a goal Carey style.
I have never seen Bucks initimidate opponents like Carey used to do.
I have never seen Bucks inspire his team to a GF win and lift the premiership cup like the other 3 champions.

No denying he is a champion but it's these and other little other things that the likes of Hird and Voss bring to the game which sets them apart.

Over and out.

 

[Aristotel]

Check out this dual Brownlow medalist Kelvin and have another think about it.

PS Hird my most respected player outside of the Saints.

Is this footage from 1997?

 

[DapperDon]

Harvey - Lack of ability in kicking goals, Disposal and Leadership put him below Hird and Voss but on level pegging with Bucks.. or even slightly below Bucks

c'mon dude, look back to Harvey in his prime. He destroyed opposition just like Judd is doing today.

Harvey is a star don't sell him short with bullsh1t like leadership ability and crap like that.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Check out this dual Brownlow medalist Kelvin and have another think about it.

PS Hird my most respected player outside of the Saints.

No denying Harvey is a champion and deserves all the accolades he gets and is one of only a handful of *genuine* supertars. It's amazing how he can't get tackled. But you have to admit that he hasn't kicked enough goals in his career and his kicking isn't damaging enough.

 

[Loco_Pie]

I have never seen Bucks go head first in to a pack with complete disregard for ones safety and win the contested ball like Hird.
I have never seen Bucks walk off the ground with his face completely smashed in like Hird at Subiaco.
I have never seen Bucks do a 40m handball like Voss.
I have never seen Bucks lay a crunching bump or tackle like Voss.
I have never seen Bucks split a pack open and take a contested mark and kick a goal Carey style.
I have never seen Bucks initimidate opponents like Carey used to do.
I have never seen Bucks inspire his team to a GF win and lift the premiership cup like the other 3 champions.

No denying he is a champion but it's these and other little other things that the likes of Hird and Voss bring to the game which sets them apart.

Over and out.

Well, if you didn't masterbate so much you'd still have your vision

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

c'mon dude, look back to Harvey in his prime. He destroyed opposition just like Judd is doing today.

Harvey is a star don't sell him short with bullsh1t like leadership ability and crap like that.

Harvery is a star. I'm comparing him to Hird and Voss - who are better players.

I don't think that's selling him short.

 

[DapperDon]

No denying Harvey is a champion and deserves all the accolades he gets and is one of only a handful of *genuine* supertars. It's amazing how he can't get tackled. But you have to admit that he hasn't kicked enough goals in his career and his kicking isn't damaging enough.

he may not have kicked a lot of goals, but how many of Lockett's goals came from Harvey?? i think you'll find a few. No point having a shot when you have the greatest FF ever in your 50.

And after Plugger he wasn't short on other FF to kick to either.

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Well, if you didn't masterbate so much you'd still have your vision

Brodie Holland board please.

 

[Impartial Spectator]

Well, if you didn't masterbate so much you'd still have your vision

HAHAHAHA, I think he's chronic

 

[doppleganger]

My final words of this topic. This is why I don't rank Bucks and for that matter Harvey in the class of Hird, Voss, Carey.

I have never seen Bucks go head first in to a pack with complete disregard for ones safety and win the contested ball like Hird. - you need to watch some more football, as when Buckley was at his peak in 02-03 he lead the league in clearances, and was ranked up the top in hardball gets
I have never seen Bucks walk off the ground with his face completely smashed in like Hird at Subiaco - why does that make him a lessor footballer? i have seen hird sit on the bench almost in tears at not being able to play because of his foot injury, and buckley likewise with his hamstring.I have never seen Bucks do a 40m handball like Voss. - Buckley is a much better kick then both Voss & Hird, why would he bother with a 40m handball when he can drilla 60m pass to a running team mate??
I have never seen Bucks lay a crunching bump or tackle like Voss. - again u need to watch more football, remember a brilliant tackle Buckley laid on campo in a pies v blues epic. was after an all in brawl which i think campo & holland started, Buckley absolutely drilled campo into the ground.
I have never seen Bucks split a pack open and take a contested mark and kick a goal Carey style. - different types of players, although Buckley did play on Carey and beat him in the late 90's.
I have never seen Bucks initimidate opponents like Carey used to do. - Either does Hird.
I have never seen Bucks inspire his team to a GF win and lift the premiership cup like the other 3 champions. - yes Buckley has never been in a good team at AFL level, he did all he could to get his team of battlers almost over the line tho.
No denying he is a champion but it's these and other little other things that the likes of Hird and Voss bring to the game which sets them apart.

Over and out.

different perspective

 

[Lonie_from_50]

Another thing, Nathan Buckley most years has had more hardball gets (when recorded) than Michael Voss. Clear indication in years 2002-2003.

2002: N Buckley 73 (21 games); M Voss 72 (22 games)
2003: N Buckley 79 (24 games); M Voss 74 (25 games)

That isn't to show Michael Voss is softer than Nathan Buckley, or to show Michael Voss doesn't get hardball gets, it is to show that Nathan Buckley get plenty of hardball gets, opposed to the player who I, and most, regard as the hardest player in the last 10 years.

Sources: Several AFL Records; Several AFL Guide to Season...

 

[Lonie_from_50]

I have never seen Bucks lay a crunching bump or tackle like Voss. - again u need to watch more football, remember a brilliant tackle Buckley laid on campo in a pies v blues epic. was after an all in brawl which i think campo & holland started, Buckley absolutely drilled campo into the ground.

That bump tackle on Camporeale was one of the highlights of an ordinary season. Camporeale had broken Holland's nose, and Buckley walked up to Holland to ask what had happened as he was walking bloody off the ground. Within several minutes, after a brawl, Buckley had laid one of the tackles of the year (unbias perspective), and in the circumstances, was brilliant. So fair, so hard.

It, however, doesn't relate to one of the greatest bumps I have ever seen, which was Voss on Richardson? in the 90's

 

[kelvin_sheedy]

Another thing, Nathan Buckley most years has had more hardball gets (when recorded) than Michael Voss. Clear indication in years 2002-2003.

2002: N Buckley 73 (21 games); M Voss 72 (22 games)
2003: N Buckley 79 (24 games); M Voss 74 (25 games)

That isn't to show Michael Voss is softer than Nathan Buckley, or to show Michael Voss doesn't get hardball gets, it is to show that Nathan Buckley get plenty of hardball gets, opposed to the player who I, and most, regard as the hardest player in the last 10 years.

Sources: Several AFL Records; Several AFL Guide to Season...

I'm not surprised by that. I would expect Buckley to win a lot of hardball gets due to his strength and physique and be right at the top year in year out.

What i'm saying is that he doesn't fly in with reckless abandon and courage the way Hird and Voss do. Hird and Voss win balls and contents that they have no right to. I think its pretty well acknowledged that Hird and Voss are two of the most courageour players to have ever played the game.

 

[Lonie_from_50]

I'm not surprised by that. I would expect Buckley to win a lot of hardball gets due to his strength and physique and be right at the top year in year out.

What i'm saying is that he doesn't fly in with reckless abandon and courage the way Hird and Voss do. Hird and Voss win balls and contents that they have no right to. I think its pretty well acknowledged that Hird and Voss are two of the most courageour players to have ever played the game.

I agree, however I am just stating that Buckley get's thrown out of comparisons with all fools with hardly any football knowledge saying Buckley never wins a hardball. Those stats above are facts that show that he does, and during the times when these comments were made, he had more than the man who is the first name bought up by anybody when hard-ball get is mentioned. Just showing another fact to stop the negative flow of responses towards Buckley.

 

[Lonie_from_50]

I have never seen Bucks split a pack open and take a contested mark and kick a goal Carey style. - different types of players, although Buckley did play on Carey and beat him in the late 90's.

95% certain it was Round 15, 1996, where Bucks had 31 touches holding Carey to 6 marks and 3 goals. In the end, Collingwood beat the Premiers by more than 10 goals. Carey kicked 23 goals in his next 3 games!

EDIT: Here is an extract of the profile in AFL 97 for Nathan Buckley, "Played across centre half-back for most of 1996, and even forced at times to play full-back on taller opponents, Buckley beat the likes of Wayne Carey and Matthew Richardson one-on-one."

 

[loki04]

95% certain it was Round 15, 1996, where Bucks had 31 touches holding Carey to 6 marks and 3 goals. In the end, Collingwood beat the Premiers by more than 10 goals. Carey kicked 23 goals in his next 3 games!

EDIT: Here is an extract of the profile in AFL 97 for Nathan Buckley, "Played across centre half-back for most of 1996, and even forced at times to play full-back on taller opponents, Buckley beat the likes of Wayne Carey and Matthew Richardson one-on-one."

Another answer to one of his crap i haven't seen things (about how hird has walked off with his face smashed in well).
a) that was an accident from a push in the back to one of his team mates which caused a collision from a lead not a hard ball get.
b) Buckley has thrown himself into a pack and had his jaw broken back in the late 90's cant remember exact year but im sure you could find it.

Also I have never seen Hird drag his team over the line in finals (yes i know he did in that 1 WC game in 05) against a team that was having a fair dinkum crack and dont tell me he did in 2000 as that was a walk in the park half of the Essendon line up could of claimed BOG that day.

 

[Lonie_from_50]

Another answer to one of his crap i haven't seen things (about how hird has walked off with his face smashed in well).
a) that was an accident from a push in the back to one of his team mates which caused a collision from a lead not a hard ball get.
b) Buckley has thrown himself into a pack and had his jaw broken back in the late 90's cant remember exact year but im sure you could find it.

Also I have never seen Hird drag his team over the line in finals (yes i know he did in that 1 WC game in 05) against a team that was having a fair dinkum crack and dont tell me he did in 2000 as that was a walk in the park half of the Essendon line up could of claimed BOG that day.

Justin Murphy broke his jaw in Round 2 1999, in the first half. Buckley would return in Round 8 of that season, and Collingwood would win their first game of the season (ironic). Buckley would then finish third in the Brownlow, despite missing more than 5 and a half games with that jaw injury.

 

[The Majestic]

i think its more likely that Bucks will retire without a premership, unfortunately.

Sadly it appears so.

why did they change the rules?? if they actually did.

There was no rules in winning the Norm Smith, it was always awarded to the best player on the ground during the Grand Final. The team never had to actually win the game, I remember Ablett won it one year when Geelong lost, may have been against the Eagles.

What the hell are you talking about?

They didn't change the rules so a player on a losing side couldn't win the award.

Correct.

as it is a sour moment having the winner coming from the losing team, as evidenced by the disrespect buckley showed when he couldn't care less about the medal, as he just missed out on achieving the ultimate.

Buckley was the best player on the ground, was the best player the following season, yet his team wasn't good enough to win the ultimate team prize.

Buckley would have thought about what he'd do when he won it, and he handled it well, I mean how would you feel after your team had lost a Grand Final that you could have won? Would you jump for joy not getting the top prize you actually was after?

I am sure he treasures his Norm Smith, but he was after a Premiership Medallion, to go with it.

 

[Lonie_from_50]

There was no rules in winning the Norm Smith, it was always awarded to the best player on the ground during the Grand Final. The team never had to actually win the game, I remember Ablett won it one year when Geelong lost, may have been against the Eagles.

It was in 1989 where Ablett kicked 9 against Hawthorn. Maurice Rioli of Richmond also won in a losing side in 1982, as did Buckley in 2002, and then Chris Judd in 2005.

There was no change in the award, as you mentioned. It was just when votes were to be given, which was at the final siren, and not at the 15 minute mark of the last quarter, due to the public's and media's go at Buckley for winning the award, when Voss' name was thrown up.