Do we really need another tall?

[Bluebear]

I have flipped back and forth during the year over this one, and with the deal for McLean all but done the debate has re-ignited.

The "yes" camp seem to argue that Fev is our only target up forward and that we need another target.

This means either recruiting or trading for another key forward, or getting a key defender to release Waite.

After watching yet another Grand final be decided without significant impact from the key forwards I have shifted back to the "No" camp.

I think we have enough talls dopwn back with Jammo, Bower, Waite, Thornton, and Austin waiting in the wings.

Forward.........firstly I dispute the fact that another tall target will help us. Unless our midfielders learn to trust and use that target it will mean very little. Even when Fisher and Cloke and Setanta etc have been playing well they rarely get targetted, and I have clear memories of games (Roos in rnd 21 last year) where guys were all but on their own inside F 50 and still we went to Fev with 2-3 guys on him.

Smarter midfield vs other options can change this significantly.

Secondly, our second tall options are more than capable of playing "second fiddle", and some of them can be quite damanging........when used. Kreuzer, Cloke, Setanta and Fisher have all shown at times they can lead up, take the pack mark, and kick goals.........when we choose to use them. Sure, some of them have defensive limitations......but how many tackles have Kosi or Roughy laid in F50?

Our small forwards can become elite, and Yarran is big enough size that he could play the Mark Williams/Steve Johnson type.

Small forwards and midifielders kick goals in GF's.

I think we do need to get another key forward in the pipeline, more as succession planning for "post Fev" rather than for our next flag.

I'm sure others will have different view points, as I have fluctuated at times.

Discuss.

 

[Salaryman]

We still need some developing in the ants for 4-5 years down the track....Hartlett and Edwards don't appear to be the long term answer.....Cloke, Saddington, Spiteri and Boundy other 'talls' in the ants.

 

[parrot]

Interesting points. You really can win a flag with very different forward line setups. Hawks had the traditional, 2 very good KP forward setup. The Weagles had 2 pretty average workhorses (Lynch and Hansen) who were able to provide a contest, with their powerful midfield taking up the slack. Cats tall forwards are probably in between Hawks and Weagles in terms of quality, but what they do have is some very good medium forwards i.e. Rooke and Chapman. (Bulldogs are irrelevant because they have no KP forwards and will never be successful). So there's no one structure. You basically build a forward structure around the talent you have.

I really reckon Yarran could play a Mark Williams like lead up role. Matty Kruezer will be excellent as a CHF type or even playing out of the square. Waite can play KP forward. We do need another developing KP forward option IMO. Austin may be a possibility. Doubt Hartlett and Edwards will make it now. Not sure about Stanton. I'd also like to see how a forwardline with Yarran, Eddie and Garlett will function.

 

[Malifice]

I'm firmly in the yes camp BB.

I'm not sure we need another 'tall' as this could imply another ruckman, tall winger, or even a tall midfielder.

KPP's are what we need going forward (particularly a young Key forward).

And we are running out of time to develop one.

We have:

Very young Small forwards/ medium forwards (Yarran/ Betts/ Gartlett)
Very young Mids/ Centres/ Utilities (Gibbs/ Mclean/ Murphy/ Russell/ Walker)
Very young Key Defenders/ Back pockets (Bower/ Jamison/ Joseph/ Army)
Very young Rucks (Hampson/ Kruezer/ Warnock)

And just the one Key forward target (Fevola)... who will be thirty next year.

Obviously the plan is (as far as I can see) to use Waite and Kruezer to fill in up forward, while we look for a key forward type over the next 5 years (smack in the middle of GC/ WSYD draft concessions).

This is not an ideal situation.

West coast is the only team that springs to mind that hasnt had a viable Key forward type and has gone all the way in recent memory.

Im more than a little concerned.

 

[Korn]

we are too slow and soft, we need more hard running players with a lot of speed.

 

[gbatman]

Yeah pretty interesting points and agree with them all. We don't kick to the player in best position enough. We kick to Fev when we shouldn't. I think the reason for this is because our other options aren't very good and the midfielders know this. Fisher, Cloke and Wiggins aren't very good. Kreuzer isn't good enough yet and Waite has yet to be fit and cement his spot up forward.

I don't think we need another tall defender, we have enough. I think Waite will play forward and play the role well.

 

[Bluebear]

This is not an ideal situation.

West coast is the only team that springs to mind that hasnt had a viable Key forward type and has gone all the way in recent memory.

Im more than a little concerned.

True. When I suggested we needed on more as a succession plan than for our next flag this is what I was getting at I suppose.

The other flag winners have had key forwards, but none of them kicked a bag or dominated. Roughy and Buddy contributed, but not on the scoreboard.......Hall and O'Loughlin likewise.......Tredrea.........it goes on.

I think the ideal structure is one that suits us, and I think our midfield are becoming more and more capable of kicking bags amongst them.

I agree with you though, we do need one coming through in 3-4 years time, which probably gives us 0-2 years to get a really good one into the program.

 

[Monkey King]

Yes we do and desperately. Not necessarily for a few years, but we've got to start getting some young KPF options down at the club.

For now who knows what will result. I liked Carlos at CHF this year and think another 12 months flat out in this position could see our questions answered in the short term.

As for Waite he was never really much of a KPF IMO. Most damaging running forward rather than presenting as a forward and Kreuzer will be a force in the ruck, so I don't want to see him there anymore than as a part timer.

 

[thylacine60]

Not till Thursday...

 

[Malifice]

Not till Thursday...

We get a decent offer and he is gone.

 

[disconorman]

Does anyone think Tiller will be much of a player? I've seen him a total of zero times and have no idea what he may be capable of once he puts on some weight.

 

[the_mighty_blues]

IMO i think we should go after Ben Warren from north melbourne. He is a medium size HFF who is pretty built and very courageous and his a type of player that from HFF can run down to FF and take a great grap and he can lead up the field aswell. Only downfall is he broke his leg but heard from a reliable source he has recovered very well. But a tall forward would also be great.

 

[Jeremias]

Do we really need another tall?

Yes - but not necessarily one that will need to slot straight into our best 22.

Back - Waite, Thornton, Jamison, Bower, Austin

Forward - Fevola, Cloke, Setanta

Other - Hartlett and Edwards

KPP are not unlike other players - you can never have enough. But the above list (save for those in the 'other' category') are good enough to take us all the way.

Look at the most recent premiership sides. Many of them don't have an above average key position forward. Geelong won a premiership in 2007 with Mooney, Lonergen and Nathan Ablett as their tall forward stocks. Lonergan is a dud, Ablett was OK and Mooney is OK at best. This year they won it with Mooney and Hawkins. Hawkins may turn out to be a fantastic player but right now he is nowhere near that.

WCE are similar - they won a premiership with Lynch and Hansen as their tall forwards. Lynch is a good footballer and nothing more, whilst Lynch is barely OK.

It wasn't the tall forwards that set them apart from the rest of the pack and got them over the line. It was the midfields of those respective clubs. Geelong: Ablett, Bartel, Selwood, Corey etc. West Coast: Judd, Cousins, Kerr, Fletcher, Braun etc.

Both are fantastic midfields that ran strong and deep.

The point is that you don't NEED world beating KPPs to win a premiership. Obviously they can help greatly (eg. Hawthorn - Buddy/Roughead and Brisbane - Brown/Lynch) but they are hardly the be-all and end-all.

I've never heard of a midfield in the modern era to win a premiership with amazing KP talent but weak midfields.

It just doesn't happen.

I'm confident that the KP talent we have currently is just as good, if not better, than that displayed by West Coast when they won the premiership.

We've got the best full forward in the game so we're already well in front of them.

They had great defenses but if they stay injury free that's nothing our defense cannot mould into.

Our KP deficiencies exist but are not as serious as most make them out to be.

The only key position player I'd seriously chase this trade period is Matt Maguire to free Waite up to go into the forward line. If he's fit we'd finish top 4 with Maguire at CHB.

If we trade for a different KPP I'll be sick.

Unless it's a superstar

Everitt isn't a KPP. More a 3rd tall.

If we want to strengthen our KP talent the only way to adequately do so is through the draft. But we shouldn't become obsessed with the notion of a KPP if he isn't the best we could take at that pick.

By all means get some KPP in the draft but NO trading (besides Maguire) and NO overpaying for a KPP when a better player in another position is available for selection.

That's how to seriously **** up the balance of an AFL list.

If Fevola is traded we must cover for that and our strategy must change. If he's traded and we don't receive a young KP forward in exchange then we're ****ing morons. And draft a young tall unless it's stretching for him.

If a club tries to trade Fev for a midfielder (don't care how good he is) we should spit in their faces.

It goes against what I said earlier that you can win a flag without star KP talent but this would be an exceptional circumstance.

If we keep Fev - THE MIDFIELD IS THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUE. Adress that and the rest will fall into place.

 

[JezBlues]

We definitely don't need another defender unless the coaching staff is extremely keen on playing Waite as a permanent forward, especially if that defender in Spangher. I wouldn't mind us signing Everitt though as long as it doesn't cost too much.

With regards to another forward option I think we need to draft one with our first pick, be it 27 or a higher traded one as long as it is before the 3rd round. Not as a quick fix and a second option besides Fev, but rather as the player to replace Fev in 3-4 years when he retires.

I think we now have a list deep enough to be able to play 3 ruckmen (Kreuzer, Hampson and Warnock) with one constantly rotating forward or if we get it real trouble we can throw Waite forward and have enough cover from Thornton, Bower or Jamison.

Our best 22, in my opinion, includes 3 ruckmen along with the 4 defenders afore mentioned, with Thornton playing loose or on a midfielder who he can zone off from and a ruckman in the goalsquare with Fev leading out and 2 of Betts, Yarran and Garlett buzzing around their feet, and of course our now star-studded midfield.

 

[Silvagnis]

Forward - Fevola, Cloke, Setanta

Other - Hartlett and Edwards

KPP are not unlike other players - you can never have enough. But the above list (save for those in the 'other' category') are good enough to take us all the way.

Do you actually believe that a Cloke, Fevola and Setanta forwardline is good enough to take us all the way?

The "good" Cloke isn't much of a footballer and can't kick.

I wouldn't pick Travis Cloke ahead of Earl Spalding in a month of Sundays.

All the Clokes are too slow and immobile to chase if they don't mark it.

Cam Mooney is a good honest footy player and a hard working CHF like Spalding.

Hawkins was rated as a pick one by some recruiters.

A potential gun.

I'd rather have a forwardline with Mooney/Hawkins, Yarran, Waite/Kreuzer, Betts, Garlett and Houlihan than Fevola as the go to man.

We'll always be too one dimensional with Fevola at FF.

I'm confident that the KP talent we have currently is just as good, if not better, than that displayed by West Coast when they won the premiership.

West Coast's premiership team didn't have to face and outscore a forwardline with Franklin, Roughead, Williams and Rioli...

We've got the best full forward in the game so we're already well in front of them.

Fevola is out the door if we get the right deal.

And I'd take the hit to develop more options and increase our spread of forwards.

The only key position player I'd seriously chase this trade period is Matt Maguire to free Waite up to go into the forward line. If he's fit we'd finish top 4 with Maguire at CHB.

Matt Maguire will make us a top four side?

I can't see Maguire running with Riewoldt and matching him stride for stride.

Why would we get the Saints for Fisher if he's that good and they lost Hudghton?

I'm more confident that Mark Austin will have a better 2009 than Maguire.

If we trade for a different KPP I'll be sick.

I'd trade Fisher for Spangher if we could convince them he can play football.

Everitt isn't a KPP. More a 3rd tall.

Isn't a KPP yet.

Getting Everitt would give us more versatility and run out of the backline than Maguire.

Modern footy needs legspeed in the backline, not an undersized truck with a badly broken ankle and compartment syndrome in his calf.

Mackie occasionally plays on taller forwards.

Everitt would also free Waite up to go forward if Fevola is traded.

BigF ty.

 

[Bluebear]

Do you actually believe that a Cloke, Fevola and Setanta forwardline is good enough to take us all the way?

Cam Mooney is a good honest footy player and a hard working CHF like Spalding.

Setanta at his best this year offers more than Mooney, especially on the defensive side. Kicking is no more erratic, and at his best this year marking was close enough.

Getting Everitt would give us more versatility and run out of the backline than Maguire.

Modern footy needs legspeed in the backline, not an undersized truck with a badly broken ankle and compartment syndrome in his calf.

Mackie occasionally plays on taller forwards.

Everitt would also free Waite up to go forward if Fevola is traded.

BigF ty.

Did you just compare Mackie to Everitt?
Cloke is to Mooney/Hawkins what Everitt is to Mackie.



How many good forwards do you need to win a GF?

Provide examples of when they have dominated in winning teams please.

 

[Jeremias]

Do you actually believe that a Cloke, Fevola and Setanta forwardline is good enough to take us all the way?

I never said they'd be in the same team.

Fevola, Cloke, Setanta is better than Lynch and Hansen.

And Mooney and Lonergan.

Much, much better.

The "good" Cloke isn't much of a footballer and can't kick.

I wouldn't pick Travis Cloke ahead of Earl Spalding in a month of Sundays.

All the Clokes are too slow and immobile to chase if they don't mark it.

Cam Mooney is a good honest footy player and a hard working CHF like Spalding.

Hawkins was rated as a pick one by some recruiters.

A potential gun.

I'd rather have a forwardline with Mooney/Hawkins, Yarran, Waite/Kreuzer, Betts, Garlett and Houlihan than Fevola as the go to man.

We'll always be too one dimensional with Fevola at FF.

The good Cloke is a good footballer that had a down year.

I'd take him in an instant if he became available.

No superstar by any means but a hell of a lot better than what we have to offer other than Fev.

And he's better than Mooney.

Never said Hawkins wasn't a potential gun because I believe he is.

But right now he isn't even close to a gun.

Just an OK footballer.

You'd rather have Mooney/Hawkins than Fevola because we become less predictable.

We also become worse so predictability means little.

West Coast's premiership team didn't have to face and outscore a forwardline with Franklin, Roughead, Williams and Rioli...

That's true.

But as I say, it's about the midfield.

Get on top in the middle and you can have inatimate carbon rods as your KP forwards.

Who had the better tall forwards in last years Grand Final - Hawthorn or Geelong?

What about St Kilda or Geelong?

Geelong's tall forwards look 2nd rate when compared to the teams they beat.

IT'S THE MIDFIELD!

Fevola is out the door if we get the right deal.

And I'd take the hit to develop more options and increase our spread of forwards.

Fevola is out the door if we get the right deal.

But I'd take nothing less than a good young key forward and a first round draft pick for him.

Sydney can go shove it if they think ROK and a 2nd round pick is going to get them the best goalkicker over the last few seasons.

But would you take it because we become less predictable?

Matt Maguire will make us a top four side?

I can't see Maguire running with Riewoldt and matching him stride for stride.

Why would we get the Saints for Fisher if he's that good and they lost Hudghton?

This whole argument is based on whether or not we need another KP defender or forward.

We don't but if we are hell bent on playing Waite forward we need a replacement for him down back.

If fit, Maguire is that player.

Maguire has a few years left in him if his body holds up.

It's no risk trading Fisher for him.

What do we have to lose? Absolutely nothing.

Fisher will not be in our forward setup next season because he'd be our 2nd tall forward which he isn't suited to.

At St Kilda he'd be behind Kosi and Riewoldt and excel in that 3rd tall forward role.

Maguire if fit will walk into our best 22.

If he was fit Maguire could've left Bower do what he does best as a 3rd tall defender.

We could well have snuck into the 4 this year with him.

And next year we would with Waite forward next to Fev.

I'm more confident that Mark Austin will have a better 2009 than Maguire.

I'd trade Fisher for Spangher if we could convince them he can play football.

Isn't a KPP yet.

Getting Everitt would give us more versatility and run out of the backline than Maguire.

Modern footy needs legspeed in the backline, not an undersized truck with a badly broken ankle and compartment syndrome in his calf.

Mackie occasionally plays on taller forwards.

Everitt would also free Waite up to go forward if Fevola is traded.

BigF ty.

Maguire can play on the big strong forwards.

Austin can't yet. No knock on him but he just isn't ready.

If our option is to trade Fisher for Spangher I'd rather keep Fisher. Spangher wouldn't be in our best 22 and we need forward options rather than depth defenders.

If we want to recruit a defender for depth, the draft is the way to go.

Spangher is nothing special.

We don't need more versatility and run out of the backline. That's not our issue.

We need if anything a TALL defender capable of playing on the tall forwards of the opposition.

If Everitt lined up on someone like Barry Hall next year I'd shit myself.

Goose would be a far better option.

Get Everitt to the club because he's a talent but you are kidding yourself if you think he's ready to be a KP defender in our best 22.

He's nowhere near strong enough.

 

[Bluebear]

That's true.

But as I say, it's about the midfield.

Get on top in the middle and you can have inatimate carbon rods as your KP forwards.

Who had the better tall forwards in last years Grand Final - Hawthorn or Geelong?

What about St Kilda or Geelong?

Geelong's tall forwards look 2nd rate when compared to the teams they beat.

IT'S THE MIDFIELD!

......and the defence.......

but this sums up the point of the thread nicely.

You don't even really need one gun forward........a few half decent ones are fine if your defence and midfield is good enough........

Waiting for anyone to counter this arguement.