Don't you need a ruckman?

[NathanD]

Sorry to intrude, but it seems as if an established ruckman, rather than another receiving midfielder would've been a priority for the Pies during the trading week? McKee seems to be out of favour and is disadvanted by the Primus rules.

I realise that you have Richards and Walker on your senior list. Neither have exactly set the world on fire with their limited opportunites. If Fraser or Rocca come unstuck it looks as if you'll be very thin in that department.

The last 3 GFs (yes I'm a Lions fan) have certainly demonstrated the benefit of having 2 strong ruckmen sharing the load, or as in 2002, one able to carry the load if the other goes out of the game.

Thoughts?

 

[hotpie]

Yes.

Josh is the real deal.

If Guy Richards can cut it we are covered. If not (and there's no guarantee that he can make the grade) we are one player short, just like the past two years.

We should have gone harder after Cox/Biglands/Charman etc.

 

[blacknwhite4eva]

We definently found ourselves one short on GF day - particularly due to the no-Rocca factor. Josh has proven this year that he is going to be one hell of a good ruckman, but the best part is his flexiblility - seems to be very similar to Goodes from Sydney. It is a shame that they did not try to get a ruckman like Allan who is nearing the end of his career and could help to develop the young kids.

 

[guess_who]

What kind of question is that, it has been asked way to many times.

 

[MarkT]

A ready to go class tap ruckman is about the only thing we need. We have good forwards and backs although not much depth, we have a very good midfield and flankers coming out of every orifice.

 

[dunno4]

Guy Richards will come on this year. He lost the best part of a year with a kidney problem. Gardiner didn't start to come good until he was 22-23.

 

[Nic]

Depends who you ask. IMO we have ruckmen. I wouldn't have knocked back Cox, though.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by dunno4
Guy Richards will come on this year. He lost the best part of a year with a kidney problem. Gardiner didn't start to come good until he was 22-23.

Richards is no Gardiner. If he was he'd have played by now.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Nic
Depends who you ask. IMO we have ruckmen. I wouldn't have knocked back Cox, though.

Who do we have Nic?

 

[crudbucket]

Originally posted by NathanD
Sorry to intrude, but it seems as if an established ruckman, rather than another receiving midfielder would've been a priority for the Pies during the trading week? McKee seems to be out of favour and is disadvanted by the Primus rules.

I realise that you have Richards and Walker on your senior list. Neither have exactly set the world on fire with their limited opportunites. If Fraser or Rocca come unstuck it looks as if you'll be very thin in that department.

The last 3 GFs (yes I'm a Lions fan) have certainly demonstrated the benefit of having 2 strong ruckmen sharing the load, or as in 2002, one able to carry the load if the other goes out of the game.

Thoughts?

Nice to read the comments of a level headed, sensible Lions supporter, one who hasn't posted just to troll.... Life ain't so bad after all ...

 

[labrooy]

The question is what do you do? Do you stick with the younger players you have, eg Richards, Cloke and Fraser, and hope they come on or do you try and trade for or draft hacks from other clubs like Allan, Cox, McKernan etc.

I personally think given what was on offer we got it right. Ideally a good ruckman would have been our priority but Adam Goodes, Dean Brogan etc weren't available.

 

[NathanD]

Re: Re: Don't you need a ruckman?

Originally posted by crudbucket
Nice to read the comments of a level headed, sensible Lions supporter, one who hasn't posted just to troll.... Life ain't so bad after all ...

Aw shucks.

My late grandfather was a Pies supporter and I certainly felt for him during the 70s, so I do have a soft spot for you guys.

Shame you couldn't get somone like Beau McDonald from us, though if he were going to leave he'd probably want to go back to WA. I don't think Charman will be leaving as he's homegrown talent who will be No 1 ruck pretty soon.

 

[Nic]

Originally posted by MarkT
Who do we have Nic?

Fraser. Richards. Rocca, Cloke, Walker (to a much lesser extent). Oh, forgot McKee (fair enough, too).

 

[labrooy]

Re: Re: Re: Don't you need a ruckman?

Originally posted by NathanD
I don't think Charman will be leaving as he's homegrown talent who will be No 1 ruck pretty soon.

If you could twist his arm I am sure MM and the team would accomodate him.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by labrooy
The question is what do you do? Do you stick with the younger players you have, eg Richards, Cloke and Fraser, and hope they come on or do you try and trade for or draft hacks from other clubs like Allan, Cox, McKernan etc.

You bring on the young blokes and recruit a ready made IF it could win you flag which it could have. If you are not a contender you wait while they develop. The point is not what we will have in 2005, the point is what we SHOULD have had from 2002 to 2004.

Just to put it in perspective, what we should have had is a premiership or two.

Originally posted by labrooy
I personally think given what was on offer we got it right. Ideally a good ruckman would have been our priority but Adam Goodes, Dean Brogan etc weren't available.

Ruckmen like Stafford, Everitt and others have changed clubs and ruckman like McDonnald remain on lists with multiple ruck options. What was on offer was good enough and what was not offerred but might have been shaken lose with some agressive recruiting was at least as good again I would strongly suspect.

Again, think about 2002 and what might have been if we had been able to win a ruck contest in the centre in the GF. Think about the late quarter goals that Brisbane got and where they started. Think about 2003 and what might have been if we had a winning ruckman (not a follower) AND had Fraser at CHF.

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Nic
Fraser. Richards. Rocca, Cloke, Walker (to a much lesser extent). Oh, forgot McKee (fair enough, too).

Which one of these have ever won in the ruck at senior level?

Nic, we have some talent but Richards was never going to be ready before next season at best, Fraser is a follower but he CANNOT ruck at all. He may get better because he has huge talent but he loses in the centre every week and he was absolutely destroyed in the ruck in the GF. Rocca is actually a good ruckman but since he has no real aerobic capacity for sustaned running he can't ever be more than relief. McKee is a plodder who at best breaks even in the ruck but even that is rare. Cloke has promise but isn't quite tall enough and could never have rucked in 2003 at senior level anyway and probably can't have any real impact in the ruck in 2004. Walker is not a ruckman's bum hole. He is short and young. He might be a handy forward or back that can take the bounces in his zone one day. Right now he is a liability in the ruck. In the GF I watch directly in line with the contest while he won a tap in the backline boundry throw in and tapped the ball directly to a Brisbane player who goaled. He didn't even look at where his players were. All he focussed on was hitting the ball. That is not ruckplay. That in fact is why some people reckon rucks are over rated. Ordinary ruckmen are over rated. Good tap ruckmen are the guys that win big matches. Did you see the Essendon game late 2002? Salmon single handedly won that game for them.

My point is that we should have a premiership under our belt out of 2002 or 2003 but we got smashed in both GF's in the ruck. We will struggle to EVER match Brisbane without winning the ruck and we do not have the options to go close in 2004 in that area. We spend all our pennies targetting ANOTHER midfielder when that will never get us in front of Brisbane. A ruckman might.

 

[hotpie]

Originally posted by MarkT

Ruckmen like Stafford, Everitt and others have changed clubs and ruckman like McDonnald remain on lists with multiple ruck options. .

.........and Spider Burton, Mark Porter, Troy Simmonds, Matthew Clarke, Corey McKernan, David Loats, Peter Street, and Jeff White are all at their second (or third) clubs. Not to mention tall options like Barry Hall, Jade Rawlings and Trent Croad. Ruckman can be traded if you want them badly enough. Collingwood hasnt tried hard enough.

 

[Whisky_McKay]

I don't think that is entirely true Hotpie.

We went really hard after Everit before he went to Whoreforn, also I understand we even had a go at Cox last week and made 'enquiries' regarding White.
I do agree that we desperately need a 'genuine' ruckman but getting one is another issue.

 

[hotpie]

Originally posted by Whisky_McKay
I don't think that is entirely true Hotpie.

We went really hard after Everit before he went to Whoreforn, also I understand we even had a go at Cox last week and made 'enquiries' regarding White.
I do agree that we desperately need a 'genuine' ruckman but getting one is another issue.

The record stands for itself. These players have all moved clubs and none of them are at Collingwood. We didnt try as hard as other clubs to get (for example) Everitt.

We always have an excuse - he's too highly paid, he's a disruptive influence, his club is holding us to ransom, we have nobody to delist, we are waiting for Bucks to join the veterans list, etc etc. Its a cop-out.

 

[carringbush]

We have a genuine tap ruckman who is coming along nicely at the moment. Richards will be put up this year and will develop into the role just like Josh did. We wont be taking any backwards steps by picking up older ruckmen because MM dosnt want to crowd the list. Keep you eyes on the delistings as there is still a couple to take place beforet the draft

 

[hotpie]

The pressure on Richards to produce is immense.

 

[carringbush]

And he will handle it with aplomb

 

[hotpie]

I'm pleased to hear that - can I hold you to it?

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by Whisky_McKay
I don't think that is entirely true Hotpie.

We went really hard after Everit before he went to Whoreforn, also I understand we even had a go at Cox last week and made 'enquiries' regarding White.
I do agree that we desperately need a 'genuine' ruckman but getting one is another issue.

Getting one is simply in the offer. Pick 16, Heath Scotland and 2 other players last year for Everitt of trade a few players to upgrade pick 16. Instead of taking Woewodin we may have got Everit or someone else. The Swans wanted to offload Stafford a couple of years ago. It fit well with Dafey but I am positive we could have taken on his contract and done a better deal for Sydney. What about this year. We waist all that time on Stevens when he can't ruck any better (or worse) than McKee. Why didn't we go to Brisbane an offer to solve their salary cap problems by taking McDonnald off their hands for pick 17 and whatever else we could get for whatever else it took (within reason of course)?

The point is we have had a galrring need for some time and done ****ING NOTHING about it. Meanwhile we have lost 2 day and 1 night grand finals and been smashed in the ruck in all 3 matches. This is not theory here. This is PREMIERSHIPS FFS. What the **** are we we here for?????

You tell me me made enquiries? Who the **** are we AVON?

 

[MarkT]

Originally posted by carringbush
We have a genuine tap ruckman who is coming along nicely at the moment. Richards will be put up this year and will develop into the role just like Josh did. We wont be taking any backwards steps by picking up older ruckmen because MM dosnt want to crowd the list. Keep you eyes on the delistings as there is still a couple to take place beforet the draft

This one really gets me.

He could develop into ****ING SUPERMAN for all I care. We have ALREADY LOST 2 premierships.

Now I agree Richards looks to have some promise but if you think he is going to do much better against the likes of Keating in 2004 you are dreaming. He'll take time to develop and I am ****ING sick of losing grand finals because we don't have a ruckman who can actually ****ING ruck against our nearest competitors.