List Mgmt. Draft Discussion 2016

[Left_Billings]

Twomey tweeting that Isaac Cumming has been added to the invitees to the draft which is interesting

 

[StCicatriz]

Twomey tweeting that Isaac Cumming has been added to the invitees to the draft which is interesting

clubs might be pushing GWS to brink given they might know they will be losing picks next year. good for everyone involved

 

[crasha301]

clubs might be pushing GWS to brink given they might know they will be losing picks next year. good for everyone involved

Trade for kelly and grab fyfe as a FA, sounds good to me

 

[SaintsSeptember]

Article on Essendon and their picks in today's HUN and they have a quote on what they're looking for with each of their picks and Dodo said they have a couple in the mix for pick 20 that they had in their top 5 early in the year. So who would they be? I'm guessing one is Marshall. Anyone else coming to mind for anyone?

Once again I rate Twomey's phantom. Last year he successfully picked Essendon to take Redman at 29.
Quayle and the HUN both sucessfully picked Kavanaugh to Essendon in the tricky 2011 draft ( the other one i looked at retrospectively ).
So i kind of suspect that if you are a media personality and you ply Dodo with alcohol, he gets pretty loose in the lips.
So the players Twomey mentioned this year were Venables, Marshall, Florent and Rotham.

 

[aussierulesrules]

i dont disagree with you on the size thing

my comment is more in regards to his ceiling and what is holding him back from being a more consistent player that can have more of an impact as a midfielder. his size and development isnt

for a bloke thats under-developed you consider them to have a higher ceiling as you can see what a full time afl development system could do to them

and thats the query i have on SPP. i love him and would be wrapt with him but i question what more we can do that the eagles have already done via east perth and what his ceiling will be

Of course, those who are underdeveloped could have a higher ceiling, but they also have a much higher bust-rate and those who have really low contested numbers at junior level in particular have a high bust rate and so hearing that Bolton had the 2nd lowest contested ball numbers at the champs is a bit of a red flag to me, as is all this talk that he doesn't want to leave WA. I'd also rather someone as big, strong and powerful as SPP over another small type, when we already have Lonie, Gresh, Steven and Sinclair. Having a bunch of "enforcers" like Mav, SPP, Steele and Armo is very appealing to me and they could make the difference in finals.

I'm extraordinarily well aware that SPP has faults and holes in his game and so-on, but again, we're not picking at no.1 in a "super-draft" here, we're picking at 23 and there are no "sure things" with no holes or faults in their games.

I'm hoping that a Florent/Marshall falls to our pick, but if they don't, I'm still on SPP and probably the main reason for that is that he's the one that just gets me the most excited at the prospect of him coming to my club.

He was one I remembered from the first time I saw him play 18 months ago and when I watch highlights vids of him now it's just "want, want, want!" more than it is for any of the others likely to be in our range.

It's like when you go shopping or looking for something and you're not exactly sure what it is that you want, but you know that when you see it you'll know it, and that's the feeling I get when I see SPP play. I just get a stronger "we've got to have this guy!" feeling than I do when watching any of the others likely to be in our range.

I'm sure others will have different views and that's fine and healthy. They're all just opinions.

 

[aussierulesrules]

Once again I rate Twomey's phantom. Last year he successfully picked Essendon to take Redman at 29.
Quayle and the HUN both sucessfully picked Kavanaugh to Essendon in the tricky 2011 draft ( the other one i looked at retrospectively ).
So i kind of suspect that if you are a media personality and you ply Dodo with alcohol, he gets pretty loose in the lips.
So the players Twomey mentioned this year were Venables, Marshall, Florent and Rotham.

Yeah, Venebles might definitely be the other one with Marshall.

 

[StCicatriz]

Of course, those who are underdeveloped could have a higher ceiling, but they also have a much higher bust-rate and those who have really low contested numbers at junior level in particular have a high bust rate and so hearing that Bolton had the 2nd lowest contested ball numbers at the champs is a bit of a red flag to me, as is all this talk that he doesn't want to leave WA. I'd also rather someone as big, strong and powerful as SPP over another small type, when we already have Lonie, Gresh, Steven and Sinclair. Having a bunch of "enforcers" like Mav, SPP, Steele and Armo is very appealing to me and they could make the difference in finals.

I'm extraordinarily well aware that SPP has faults and holes in his game and so-on, but again, we're not picking at no.1 in a "super-draft" here, we're picking at 23 and there are no "sure things" with no holes or faults in their games.

I'm hoping that a Florent/Marshall falls to our pick, but if they don't, I'm still on SPP and probably the main reason for that is that he's the one that just gets me the most excited at the prospect of him coming to my club.

He was one I remembered from the first time I saw him play 18 months ago and when I watch highlights vids of him now it's just "want, want, want!" more than it is for any of the others likely to be in our range.

It's like when you go shopping or looking for something and you're not exactly sure what it is that you want, but you know that when you see it you'll know it, and that's the feeling I get when I see SPP play. I just get a stronger "we've got to have this guy!" feeling than I do when watching any of the others likely to be in our range.

I'm sure others will have different views and that's fine and healthy. They're all just opinions.

you are absolutely spot on and its hard to disagree with any of what you wrote

its very hard to settle on a player at the pick we have for the reasons you mentioned. i find myself switching between players, one moment i'm really hot on them the next i'm cold

i really like SPP, as you know and have been defending him since i saw his game vs vic country over here. coming out of that game i was also very big on bolton, guelfi, fisher and strnadica. i am un-ashamedly pretty biased on the WA prospects this year

but going back to what we do, i hope we are not going for the safe bet angle, which is what SPP is compared to other prospects mentioned on here, outside of florent and marshall who probably pick them selves

i just feel we cant be conservative here and at pick 23 we are going to have to take some risk. especially with where our list is at. we have a base now. we have a core of soldiers. we need to start finding the x factor and the difference that will win us game. we need to find the players that have a high ceiling that wont just be role players

players like wright, dunstan taken around a similar pick I consider safe conservative options as they had elements that allowed them to play round 1. i hope we are putting our balls on the line here and going for a player we think we can develop into the comps best with a very high ceiling

thats the only reason i've started to lean more towards bolton in the last 24 hours, plus the news that he could settle into melbourne fine with pickett and SPS there. he's the icing on the cake. blistering speed, high marking and the ability to break lines. i feel like SPP his disposal/decision making is over played, but here's the good part. he hasnt been in the elite system like SPP has. given SPP kicking has improved under the eagles development system gives me confidence we can do the same for bolton. bolton is also a pretty good set shot on goal and has a nack of knowing where to run. he's more of a natural footballer IMO and more a link up player which would compliment newnes/mckenzie the other two outside players who are more defencive/hard at it

i think the lack of contested ball/1 on 1 bolton isnt winning is more him playing to his strengths which he has commented on before. its no different to say a brad hill or a jetta in his prime. use him right and he can be deadly but that needs all the other parts to be there and working well

 

[gringo2011]

WTF? No offense, but that's one of the silliest things I've read.

This is something that some trot out each year, but it's not based in any truth and statistics actually show that it's the more inside, strong, contested types who are a FAR less chance of not making it at AFL level than the skinny, uncontested, outside types. Hence Knightmare for instance generally rating them so much higher.

They looked into this on AFL Future Stars a couple of years ago with regards to those taken top 10 for instance and they found that the bigger-bodied, contested, inside types had about an 80% success rate, compared to the skinny, outside uncontested types, who only had about a 30% success rate.

Guys with big strong bodies who were generally much bigger than their opponents at junior level who seem to be going OK at AFL level include Dangerfield, Bontempelli, Dusty Martin, Cripps, Wines, Stringer, Petracca, Oliver, Hopper and that's just a few off the top of my head. Some of course said the same thing about Paddy going into his draft and it was said about guys like Hawkins and Boyd as well, by those who are ignorant to the facts.

I might have to down grade Dangers brownlow now. Seriously though sometimes there are guys that can bully the underage players but he isn't that huge so can't see how he's any worse than Petracca or any other big kid who's played good footy and playing WAFL means no-one will go in guessing

 

[gringo2011]

you are absolutely spot on and its hard to disagree with any of what you wrote

its very hard to settle on a player at the pick we have for the reasons you mentioned. i find myself switching between players, one moment i'm really hot on them the next i'm cold

i really like SPP, as you know and have been defending him since i saw his game vs vic country over here. coming out of that game i was also very big on bolton, guelfi, fisher and strnadica. i am un-ashamedly pretty biased on the WA prospects this year

but going back to what we do, i hope we are not going for the safe bet angle, which is what SPP is compared to other prospects mentioned on here, outside of florent and marshall who probably pick them selves

i just feel we cant be conservative here and at pick 23 we are going to have to take some risk. especially with where our list is at. we have a base now. we have a core of soldiers. we need to start finding the x factor and the difference that will win us game. we need to find the players that have a high ceiling that wont just be role players

players like wright, dunstan taken around a similar pick I consider safe conservative options as they had elements that allowed them to play round 1. i hope we are putting our balls on the line here and going for a player we think we can develop into the comps best with a very high ceiling

thats the only reason i've started to lean more towards bolton in the last 24 hours, plus the news that he could settle into melbourne fine with pickett and SPS there. he's the icing on the cake. blistering speed, high marking and the ability to break lines. i feel like SPP his disposal/decision making is over played, but here's the good part. he hasnt been in the elite system like SPP has. given SPP kicking has improved under the eagles development system gives me confidence we can do the same for bolton. bolton is also a pretty good set shot on goal and has a nack of knowing where to run. he's more of a natural footballer IMO and more a link up player which would compliment newnes/mckenzie the other two outside players who are more defencive/hard at it

i think the lack of contested ball/1 on 1 bolton isnt winning is more him playing to his strengths which he has commented on before. its no different to say a brad hill or a jetta in his prime. use him right and he can be deadly but that needs all the other parts to be there and working well

I reckon the guys that are Dunstan and Ross types this year are Scharenberg and Clarke, both should be walk up high 20s possession a week mids for 10 years but look safe rather than exciting types. Bread and butter where I'm inclined to want something with more flavour...... pepper?

 

[gringo2011]

i dont disagree with you on the size thing

my comment is more in regards to his ceiling and what is holding him back from being a more consistent player that can have more of an impact as a midfielder. his size and development isnt

for a bloke thats under-developed you consider them to have a higher ceiling as you can see what a full time afl development system could do to them

and thats the query i have on SPP. i love him and would be wrapt with him but i question what more we can do that the eagles have already done via east perth and what his ceiling will be

I reckon he could be that Mav Weller type if he can't develop a midfield game. Mav is pretty adaptable and was playing good footy at GC as a running half back and has moved seamlessly forward at the Saints and can pretty much play adequate footy where ever they plonk him. A few more utility types wouldn't hurt to patch holes and his ceiling is pretty high IMO.

 

[StCicatriz]

I reckon the guys that are Dunstan and Ross types this year are Scharenberg and Clarke, both should be walk up high 20s possession a week mids for 10 years but look safe rather than exciting types. Bread and butter where I'm inclined to want something with more flavour...... pepper?

I reckon he could be that Mav Weller type if he can't develop a midfield game. Mav is pretty adaptable and was playing good footy at GC as a running half back and has moved seamlessly forward at the Saints and can pretty much play adequate footy where ever they plonk him. A few more utility types wouldn't hurt to patch holes and his ceiling is pretty high IMO.

very fair comments and i agree

the mav comparison is interesting and i think you might be onto something. he certainly feels like that defencive fwd type role that can also break the lines and spend some minutes in the midfield. albeit maybe with a bit more attacking flair/more suited to the midfield

 

[aussierulesrules]

One of the main reasons I'm so keen on SPP is his versatility. I reckon we've got a lot of pieces in place now and getting someone who we could play in a few different roles, depending on our needs, is very appealing to me.

You speak about not wanting us to go "safe", D, but another reason I'm for Sam is that I reckon he's both a pretty safe bet, but also has the real "x-factor" and game-breaking ability that you say you want. Maybe not quite as much as say Bolton, but surely more than enough and a hell of lot more than the Dunstan/Ross types. I mean the reason so many across BF seem to want SPP at their club is precisely because of his "x-factor" and how much more you remember him and his plays than so many others that are playing in the same games.

He can play a lot of different roles, he can play inside or out, forward or back, a defensive role or an attacking one and he can change the course of games, by breaking up the play by busting through the pack and breaking a line, or thumping through a goal from 55m out.

Plus there's his leadership qualities, which means that he's bringing a lot more to the table than just what he does personally on the park. That's an intangible thing that makes him more valuable than the next guy, who has a similar amount of footballing ability, but not the leadership/strong character.

Having said all this, in recent months I've pretty much put a mental line through Nathan Freeman ever being of any real value to us, so of course if I was sure he was going to come good then I would agree that we have less of a need for SPP and would be a lot more open to others like Bolton, Cox, or Ridley (who I'd still be happy with anyway).

None of this matters though, because we ain't the ones picking on the night!

 

[StCicatriz]

One of the main reasons I'm so keen on SPP is his versatility. I reckon we've got a lot of pieces in place now and getting someone who we could play in a few different roles, depending on our needs, is very appealing to me.

You speak about not wanting us to go "safe", D, but another reason I'm for Sam is that I reckon he's both a pretty safe bet, but also has the real "x-factor" and game-breaking ability that you say you want. Maybe not quite as much as say Bolton, but surely more than enough and a hell of lot more than the Dunstan/Ross types. I mean the reason so many across BF seem to want SPP at their club is precisely because of his "x-factor" and how much more you remember him and his plays than so many others that are playing in the same games.

He can play a lot of different roles, he can play inside or out, forward or back, a defensive role or an attacking one and he can change the course of games, by breaking up the play by busting through the pack and breaking a line, or thumping through a goal from 55m out.

Plus there's his leadership qualities, which means that he's bringing a lot more to the table than just what he does personally on the park. That's an intangible thing that makes him more valuable than the next guy, who has a similar amount of footballing ability, but not the leadership/strong character.

Having said all this, in recent months I've pretty much put a mental line through Nathan Freeman ever being of any real value to us, so of course if I was sure he was going to come good then I would agree that we have less of a need for SPP and would be a lot more open to others like Bolton, Cox, or Ridley (who I'd still be happy with anyway).

None of this matters though, because we ain't the ones picking on the night!

you raise really good points and i agree with them

ask me tomorrow morning and i'll probably be back on the SPP band wagon, that how close i have SPP and bolton. so if we call out SPP name and I'm still hoping for bolton, i wont be disappointed!

i dont envy our recruiters, though. must do your head in at times

 

[aussierulesrules]

I reckon he could be that Mav Weller type if he can't develop a midfield game. Mav is pretty adaptable and was playing good footy at GC as a running half back and has moved seamlessly forward at the Saints and can pretty much play adequate footy where ever they plonk him. A few more utility types wouldn't hurt to patch holes and his ceiling is pretty high IMO.

Yep, spot on, that's exactly how I see his career going if he doesn't happen to make it in the midfield. At worst I see him playing that Mav role, or the Wright role, but with a lot more of an offensive output than Nath has.

Richo is obviously very keen on that forward half defensive pressure, so having someone as big, powerful and explosive as SPP putting on defensive pressure and also being a scoring threat would really appeal to Richo, I imagine. Him and Mav as "enforcers" in that area? Yum.

It also needs to be remembered that as far as I'm aware, this year was SPP's first year of playing any significant time in the midfield. Just because he's not racking up the touches in that role yet doesn't mean he won't, and with so much competition for spots, we could give him ample time in the VFL to learn it, if we select him.

His upside, if he does develop a genuine midfield game, is enormous though, with his size, explosiveness, agility/evasiveness and power.

 

[StCicatriz]

Yep, spot on, that's exactly how I see his career going if he doesn't happen to make it in the midfield. At worst I see him playing that Mav role, or the Wright role, but with a lot more of an offensive output than Nath has.

Richo is obviously very keen on that forward half defensive pressure, so having someone as big, powerful and explosive as SPP putting on defensive pressure and also being a scoring threat would really appeal to Richo, I imagine. Him and Mav as "enforcers" in that area? Yum.

It also needs to be remembered that as far as I'm aware, this year was SPP's first year of playing any significant time in the midfield. Just because he's not racking up the touches in that role yet doesn't mean he won't, and with so much competition for spots, we could give him ample time in the VFL to learn it, if we select him.

His upside, if he does develop a genuine midfield game, is enormous though, with his size, explosiveness, agility/evasiveness and power.

he has been playing midfield for a while now at colts level. he was doing it last year, he just didnt do it in the champs last year and instead played off half back. so i dont necessarily buy that argument

 

[sasaint]

Not so much about that, more about what we want out of them now that we're a ways along the rebuild.

IMO it works out somewhat like this;

1. Sam POWELL-PEPPER: most likely to play the aggressive 'Saints Footy'-type style we like and certainly the best 'plug-and-play' prospect, but is the poorest by foot of the three and still needs to work on his consistency and decision making.

Is arguably the least required with our additions of Steele and Stevens, the improvement of Ross and Acres and the presence of Armitage and Dunstan. Adds a point of difference to that lot however with his pace.

List comparison: Maverick Weller

2. Shai BOLTON: the most dynamic of the trio with his dash and agility, but can be a bit laconic and sloppy with his disposal when he's 'off'.

Likely to start as a small forward like Lonie and Gresham, and like them is smaller than would be preferable, but he absolutely puts in a solid shift with respect to forward pressure.

List comparison: Jack Lonie

3. Cedric COX: could be absolutely anything. Still bothered by the pace of the game a bit, but that's attributable to being a latecomer to the elite system.

At this stage he's still very raw and only shows flashes of what he could become, but the guts to move from Halls Creek to Camperdown to have a genuine crack at footy can't be undervalued and he's got buckets of class.

Has the most upside, but also the biggest bust potential.

List comparison: Shane Savage

The problem I see with Bolton is that he is so one sided. At the elite level that will be worked out and will be a great weakness. Cox is naturally very good on both sides and that's something that is hard to teach. Of the three I would invest in Cox and give him the year or two to develop.

 

[StCicatriz]

The problem i see with Bolton is that he is so one sided. At the elite level that will be worked out and will be a grea weakness. Cox is naturally very good on both sides and that's something that is hard to teach. Of the three I would invest in Cox and give him the year or two to develop.

good to have another opinion on cox, who I havent been following

imagine after all this debate on SPP v Bolton v Cox we end up drafting someone else hahahah

 

[Flandersss]

good to have another opinion on cox, who I havent been following

imagine after all this debate on SPP v Bolton v Cox we end up drafting someone else hahahah

You sunk my battleship.

 

[aussierulesrules]

good to have another opinion on cox, who I havent been following

imagine after all this debate on SPP v Bolton v Cox we end up drafting someone else hahahah

I've still got a pretty strong feeling that someone will slide, like a Florent or Marshall and for all we know we may have no interest in any of the 3 we're talking about!

Cox is a hard one to get a read on for me, having not seen him play a game and not being blown away by his highlights packages, or stats. Seeing that someone has the pieces and hoping they'll put it all together when they haven't done so yet is always a gamble. If WB are really keen that's probably good enough for me though. Their recruiting of late has been exceptional!

 

[Quixote]

When did this turn into giant post week je-zus.

 

[goodie23]

Still holding out hope for Florent. Kind of need a butterfly effect though, fair bids on Setterfield and Bowes will cause Brodie to drift, North takes Brodie, interstate teams leave Florent alone, Doggies go tall, the Essendon bozo takes someone else and huzzah! He's all ours.

 

[Sir Skid]

Still holding out hope for Florent. Kind of need a butterfly effect though, fair bids on Setterfield and Bowes will cause Brodie to drift, North takes Brodie, interstate teams leave Florent alone, Doggies go tall, the Essendon bozo takes someone else and huzzah! He's all ours.

Simple as that

 

[SK_MD_#7]

Cumming firming for the Crows according to Brett Anderson.

 

[StCicatriz]

Cumming firming for the Crows according to Brett Anderson.

what does that do for their points?

 

[12Chill]

Cumming firming for the Crows according to Brett Anderson.

Very interesting, do the Giants match?