Draft discusson thread

[bodazoka]

I wish Judd defected in 2008.

*EDIT* and we still finished 2nd last so we can also pick up NN

 

[Eastern Rangers]

[/b]

Geeeeeez, talk about going out on a limb here with this statement!

Indeed. We will see what type of sliders come our way and we shall see if we make any big mistakes.

 

[sydney eagle]

If we are nominating which "sliders" we would like i'll take Wade Wells please !

 

[worsfold]

I'd be happy with chalwell, cook or mitchell. I think at absolute worst one of those will be available so im not fussed.

I'm also not fussed with our pick 4. Gaff, Heppell, Polec and atley will all keep me happy.

and i'm happy with almost any slider at 26.

I think its gonna be hard for me to get angry at our drafting this year.

how much better is darling than these guys?
Would we be better off taking darling at 4 instead of Gaff?
meaning - would we get a better Mid at 26/28 than a KP?

 

[Obeanie1]

how much better is darling than these guys?
Would we be better off taking darling at 4 instead of Gaff?
meaning - would we get a better Mid at 26/28 than a KP?

Good question!

Darling, Prestia and Green.

or

Gaff, Prestia and Watson.

Emma Quayle mentioned this draft has a lot more inside mids than outside so quality outside users will likely be gone by 26. Then again I really like the look / sound of Green and Prestia.

 

[worsfold]

Good question!

Darling, Prestia and Green.

or

Gaff, Prestia and Watson.

Emma Quayle mentioned this draft has a lot more inside mids than outside so quality outside users will likely be gone by 26. Then again I really like the look / sound of Green and Prestia.

Prestia or green to be small forward also Fasolo would suit that role.

interesting people say we need outside mids - Jon, Houlihan, Rosa, Dalziell, Sheppard, Smith, and stevenson? if he stays

 

[tesseract]

Prestia or green to be small forward also Fasolo would suit that role.

interesting people say we need outside mids - Jon, Houlihan, Rosa, Dalziell, Sheppard, Smith, and stevenson? if he stays

WC have plenty of potential A-grade IM's, but how many potential A-grade OM's do WC have of those on your list? Sheppard is the only one. No wonder some are calling for an OM at pick 4. WC lack a number of quality options for this position. WC have average players filling those important roles; that's not going to get the job done satisfactorily or consistently.

By waiting till our 2nd or 3rd pick before selecting an OM, WC willing be following the pattern that has lead them to having a number of average OM's on their list. It'd be foolish to repeat the mistakes which have lead to this predicament. As Emma Quayle says, there aren't too many decent OM's in this draft. If clubs want an OM, they'll jump earlier rather than later. If WC want quality, they'll have to use pick 4. The imbalance in the number of quality IM's compared to OM's on the WC list, shows the WC drafting mindset. WC won't be playing deep into the finals with Rosa and Houlihan playing on the wings.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Is it me or is the whole concept of inside and outside a load of bollocks

There are a few who are pure grunt machines - ball, priddis, moloney etc

But other than that - everyone is required to win their own ball - and use it well.

Looking at Geelong and Collingwood

Ablett, Selwood, Bartel, Chapman, Ling, Corey - which of those are receivers?

Didak, Swan, Pendlebury, Ball, Thomas - only Didak would be an "outside" player to use those terms. Thomas would have been prior to this year - but his game improved immensely when he learnt to win his own ball.

Hell Dal Santo improved a lot from 2009 after Rosco sacked him in 2008 - and he became a harder player.

There aren't too many genuine wingers who win flags - Matera was a freak. Generally these are the type of guys who go missing in the finals heat - when winning your own ball is important

But quick guys like mcleod, ablett, judd etc - all win their own ball - they aren't outside players.

 

[Quinz]

McLeod is outside. Other than that you make good points.

 

[paran]

Chapman and Cory are outside, Thomas is outside, Matera and McLeod outside. Pendlebury is both outside and inside and Swan's game is based a lot on receiving.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

McLeod is outside. Other than that you make good points.

McLeod went to the half back flank when his knees gave out.

But other than that - he started in the middle and won his own ball as well.

He wasn't purely a receiver. He was bloody good at that - but he wasn't just getting on the end of cheapies.

When someone wins the footy and busts clear of the congestion - they aren't "outside" - they are just exceptional.

The last "outside" midfielder i can remember having an impact on a GF is Clinton Young in the 2008 GF. But again - that's more to do with the lack of respect shown him by the cats.

 

[tesseract]

Is it me or is the whole concept of inside and outside a load of bollocks

There are a few who are pure grunt machines - ball, priddis, moloney etc

But other than that - everyone is required to win their own ball - and use it well.

Looking at Geelong and Collingwood

Ablett, Selwood, Bartel, Chapman, Ling, Corey - which of those are receivers?

Didak, Swan, Pendlebury, Ball, Thomas - only Didak would be an "outside" player to use those terms. Thomas would have been prior to this year - but his game improved immensely when he learnt to win his own ball.

Hell Dal Santo improved a lot from 2009 after Rosco sacked him in 2008 - and he became a harder player.

There aren't too many genuine wingers who win flags - Matera was a freak. Generally these are the type of guys who go missing in the finals heat - when winning your own ball is important

But quick guys like mcleod, ablett, judd etc - all win their own ball - they aren't outside players.

I don't think the concept of inside and outside is outdated. I think that the use of the word predominantly makes it viable. It helps in assessing players tendencies.

Such inside and outside distinctions are usually more acceptable when discussing draftees. Players who start out with a particular leaning usually have their deficiency, in one of the two terms, somewhat ironed out within the elite training structure that AFL clubs implement. Rosa for example was an out-an-out squib some years ago, but changed that over the course of the journey. So I think the use of the term is more applicable when describing draftees, rather than established AFL players.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Chapman and Cory are outside, Thomas is outside, Matera and McLeod outside. Pendlebury is both outside and inside and Swan's game is based a lot on receiving.

Corey, Bartel and Selwood have pretty close the same ratio of Contested possessions to uncontested possessions - why is Corey outside and Bartel inside?

The reality is - the best players can win their own ball in tight and also find space in open play to create play.

Swan's game might have receiving in it - but he averages more contested ball and clearances than Luke Ball. So he's more "inside" than luke ball, but more "outside" than Dale Thomas.

The reality is - he's a good footballer who can find the pill no matter where it is.

 

[paran]

Contested possession does not necessarily mean inside or in a pack. Corey's game is more ourside than in, but that does not mean he cannot play inside. What tesserect say also makes sense regarding draftees. I guess instead of inside you might use the word attacking or offensive. McLeod was always a HBF who moved up the ground. He was never an in the pack player.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

McLeod was always a HBF who moved up the ground. He was never an in the pack player.

Post that on the Adelaide forum and you'll be laughed at.

If anything - McLeod started forward of the ball - like Ben Cousins - and worked back to the midfield.

McLeod, like Matera - were moved back to the back flank when after a number of years - they were starting to get worked over - so they were released into the backline to avoid the tags

 

[placebo]

There's more to be an inside player then just 'winning your own balls', TFS.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

There's more to be an inside player then just 'winning your own balls', TFS.

Tackling, blocking, shepherding etc etc - I get it.

Surely with pick 4 - you want the bloke who has the best skillset.

Scott Pendlebury is a great midfielder - give me someone like than a receiver who is quick and runs forward of the ball.

Because the blokes that win the ball out of the middle and make great decisions and execute skills win you flags. The bloke that runs outside on the wings rarely do.

The very best midfielders do it all - that's the player we should target if we can.

 

[tesseract]

Not every player can be an inside and outside player. WC already have many players with the ability to win their own ball. That's definitely something they don't lack. What they lack is the quality receivers, who're forward running minded, run and carry types. This perceived outside player in Polec can be taught to put his head over the ball and win his own ball, just like Rosa has. What the outcome will likely be is a player who has a skills set of an IM and OM that's different from the standard IM types who don't have the skills of the predominantly outside types. It doesn't have to be a case of once an IM or OM, always that. A predominantly OM can be taught the skills of an IM, but you can't teach speed. Agility and lateral movement can only be worked as much as it's individually possible. Having a natural speed, agility and lateral movement combination is a formidable weapon in itself. Game breaking players have this.

What WC need is quality variety. WC don't have that at present. IMO, what WC lack is what Polec offers. For as good as Gaff and Heppell are now, as well as their potential, they'll never have the natural skills of Polec.
I strongly believe there's more to consider than just who has the best disposal skills. The player who can do it all now, may not be the best player in the future. A player who may not be able to do it all now, but will be able to with coaching and development is something WC are in a good position to take, considering the amount time it's going to take for WC to get back to the top. WC in this regard can afford to be patient.

Gaff, Heppell and Polec are all quality options. But who of them has the potential not just to be the best and most rounded player, but what's needed considering the current players at WC and the skills set they bring of their own, which WC currently have to work with, is another consideration. They all offer something different, but not equally of value when viewing the balance of the WC list. Hence my previously stated call for a needs based draft.

What that's saying overall is that WC need to identify their deficiencies and then plug the holes, rather than continually draft ball winning types. Without variety, there's no plan B if things don't work out as hoped for. (Let's hope that WC don't get bent over and have their hole plugged in 2011, heh heh)

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Any drafting is going to have it's lottery element - so whether a player develops or not can happen to anyone - regardless of their current playing style.

But i'll ask this - who'd you rather have - Pendlebury or Didak?

For me - Pendlebury is a better footballer - i'd rather take him - even though Didak is more offensive

Sure he doesn't have pure speed - but he does always have time - your term agility is very apt - a subtle step here or there can add precious tenths to your time to dispose of the ball.

 

[placebo]

Tackling, blocking, shepherding etc etc - I get it.

Surely with pick 4 - you want the bloke who has the best skillset.

Scott Pendlebury is a great midfielder - give me someone like than a receiver who is quick and runs forward of the ball.

Because the blokes that win the ball out of the middle and make great decisions and execute skills win you flags. The bloke that runs outside on the wings rarely do.

The very best midfielders do it all - that's the player we should target if we can.

Well, no. There's more to it than that as well. I'd expect every player to be able to tackle, block and sheperd, regardless of their position/type of player they are. Clearances and in-and-under stuff around the stoppages are very important aspects of it as well. But guys like Masten and Swift excel around stoppages, with clearances and putting guys into space from congestion (in junior level predominantly), as outside players and receivers, they aren't as effective. A guy like Stephen Hill CAN win his own ball, but he's far more effective as an outside, line-breaking receiver (something we don't have). There are mids who can do both, but excel in one particular area.

Lot's of different things factor in to what wins you premierships. Having a good balance is one of things, and having guys that can hurt you in space is also one of those things, most of the time.

I agree though, that all mids should be able to win their own ball, and most mids should definitely try to work on other aspects to their game.

 

[worsfold]

excellent arguements guys,

I agree our OM are rather average, and we lack a more attacking players

Just look a the difference made by a few player we already have late last year
Luke shuey surely an IM but has the speed and strength to break from a pack and set up play (attacking)

lecras our best forward nut beat Ablett all ends up on the wing

Hurn our half back when moved forward look very damaging and lovely delivery to the forwards

so should we draft to needs for attacking role or can we reposition players to have the same effect - but it seems to come down to skill players with skill will have an effect where ever they play.

Pendelbury - more poise than agility ie he doesn't panick

 

[Obeanie1]

Is it me or is the whole concept of inside and outside a load of bollocks

There are a few who are pure grunt machines - ball, priddis, moloney etc

But other than that - everyone is required to win their own ball - and use it well.

Looking at Geelong and Collingwood

Ablett, Selwood, Bartel, Chapman, Ling, Corey - which of those are receivers?

Didak, Swan, Pendlebury, Ball, Thomas - only Didak would be an "outside" player to use those terms. Thomas would have been prior to this year - but his game improved immensely when he learnt to win his own ball.

Hell Dal Santo improved a lot from 2009 after Rosco sacked him in 2008 - and he became a harder player.

There aren't too many genuine wingers who win flags - Matera was a freak. Generally these are the type of guys who go missing in the finals heat - when winning your own ball is important

But quick guys like mcleod, ablett, judd etc - all win their own ball - they aren't outside players.

In the modern game the perfect midfielder can do both. Is Ablett an insider or outside mid? What about Swan? Or Hodge?

Hill from Freo is a good example of a line breaking running outside mid, he's also a good example of one that goes missing when tagged.

But when it comes to tough finals which ones cut the mustard? Its the solid inside mids and those who can also play outside and inside roles that win finals. In finals you just notice the additional pressure, the pace of the game increases, players don't have as much time or space.

And yes, only exceptional wingers will play well in finals, agree with that.

So how many do you need? IMO, you need 2 or 3 outside runners with pace and good skills and the rest of the midfield you need insiders or those who can get their own ball and run past as the link man.

We have Sheppard, Rosa, Dalziell, Embely, Houlihan and a part timer possibly in Le Cras and a long shot with JON. I expect us to have a crack at Jetta from the Swans at the end of 2011.

Pick 4 should be used on the best mid available, one that can play both inside and outside roles ala Cousins. Picks 26 and 28 one we should target a mid with pace, smarts, kicking skills and goal kicking ability ala Green or Prestia.

 

[paran]

TFS, Embley was a wingman, so was Chapman (wingman = predominantlyoutside mid who kicks goals from midfield).. Goddard pretty much played the role for StK. Quality goalkicking mids who play forward of the ball actually have been known to play very well in GF's.

Looking specifically at Polec, he's not purely outside. His ability to pick up the ball below the knees is all class and allows him the time/space to get away from the pack. I look at him as a left sided, smoother, faster version of Embley more than a Stephen Hill. He can play inside, but is just able to get into space easily and get away from opponents.

Regarding Heppell, as I've stated I've no idea how he plays as a mid - absolutely nothing to go off. Seems like a very good HBF in the Champs and did win the team MVP. With Gaff, I just think we've got Scooter, Masten and Shuey - good small mids.

 

[The Falcon Strike]

Just on a different tangent

interesting if we are into this guy or not

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/104584/default.aspx

The knock on him has been too small and too slow - but his speed test is equivalent to top 4 in the country.

Colts medallist last year and 10th in the sandover this year at 19.

Am aware that Adelaide are into him as they invited him to the state screening

 

[Carbine Chaos]

Just on a different tangent

interesting if we are into this guy or not

http://www.afl.com.au/news/newsarticle/tabid/208/newsid/104584/default.aspx

The knock on him has been too small and too slow - but his speed test is equivalent to top 4 in the country.

Colts medallist last year and 10th in the sandover this year at 19.

Am aware that Adelaide are into him as they invited him to the state screening

Stopped reading when the article said Elari plays for East Fremantle...

But I expect him to be drafted, had a great year for the (Not So) Mighty Demons. Will probably go in the Rookie Draft.