Elite players - how do we get them?

[*PAF]

...
Jarman
Robran
McLeod
Caven
M Stevens
Matthew Connell
Eccles
Brett James
Kym Koster

from our 1998 premiership side all through trades.

Troy Bond
Clay Sampson

additionally in 1997

there's very important players there. so no, in no way I am overstating the benefits of trading players!!

...

Add
Wakelin
Pickett
Schofield
Montgomery
Bishop

from the 2004 Port side.
Trading is very important.

Plus of course JBurger that we got indirectly via a trade.

 

[*PAF]

With draft camps and all, the days of picking up Jimmy Hird at 30 or above are long g.o.n.e.

 

[Macca19]

Hirds draft pick deserves an asterisk next to it. At the time, other clubs could only draft NSW & ACT players if they were over 19 and not required by Sydney. Essendon must have found some sort of loophole to be able to draft Hird.

 

[jenny61_99]

whoops!

that's the thing, we all think they care. is that because they do, or because we need to believe as supporters that they do?

Trust me, they do.

true, but the old way so unsuccessful continuing it would be akin to insisting that massie on franklin was the way forward, and we would do it again. oh wait

Ah but they HAVE changed. Thereby your clever and witty analogy is funny but basically pointless.

2 things.

firstly, that's another example of what we would like to believe
and lastly, the clubs open public statements certainly shed light here. and these statements are regularly along the lines, we don't like trading, we probably won't participate. bah humbug. so we are not totally guessing.

Not many successful businesses broadcast their intentions ahead of a big deal. I have no doubt we are the same. You hear what they WANT you to hear. The rest is none of your damned business.

again, the danger of worrying about tomorrow is it never comes.

Not sure of the relevance of this statement seeing as we are ALL concerned about the future path of the Club.

cue dorothy and the munchkins... "follow, follow, follow the richmond brick road."

Ah Wallet.... wonder if he will ever deliver?

there's nothing clever if it isn't effective.

Too early to tell. Lets bookmark this thread for 2011. Then we'll discuss whether your pessimism or my optimism is warranted.

 

[The Sloane Ranger]

Hirds draft pick deserves an asterisk next to it. At the time, other clubs could only draft NSW & ACT players if they were over 19 and not required by Sydney. Essendon must have found some sort of loophole to be able to draft Hird.

Not sure on the loop hole

However, the year Hird was drafted he spent most of the year on the side line injured and played very little footy for Ainslie in the ACT

Hird's run with injuries continued in his first year at the Bombers, he played little to no footy

I guess because of these injuries Hird flew under the radar of most clubs however due to his connection with the Bombers they knew a lot more about him

pretty much the same situation with Davis this year, the crows were happy for Davis to sit out most of the season injured as it took him off the radar

 

[Lynch takes a mark]

Huge amount of it comes down to luck, hope that when your team eventually does bottom out that the draft is a strong one (2008 looks that way) or you get some guns under the father son rule.

Huge amount of luck in drafting - not every year is a top 3 draft pick of equal value

compare 2001, 2004 and 2008 where you can get the likes of Judd, Hodge, Franklin, Deledio, Griffen, Naitanui, Watts etc while other years at best you get the likes of Sylvia, Goddard or Thomas - good players but a long way below other years where you are picking up genuine genuine guns of the competition.

Luck with injuries also plays a part, Judd falls to 3, Selwood falls to 7, Swift falls all the way to 20 after the knee reco and clubs won't touch him with a first round pick yet has every tool possible to be elite and looks to be round 1 ready. Other years you get Muston & Dowler who can barely get on the park and never look close to where they were pre injury.

 

[maccas_no1]

Some on here think by tightening their blind fold, clicking their heals and chanting over and over "Craigy/Trigg/Reid always know best" a premiership cup will miraculously appear in our lap.

Its what shits me to tears, when NC was announced as our coach back in 2004 I heard it on the radio as I was driving to Ballarat, I litterly nearly drove off the road in not only surprise, but also at the stupidty of the appointment, until someone can prove to me otherwise, NC and his 'boys club' need to go.

 

[maccas_no1]

are we really?

No, as you say we are a 'nice' club, in the end fans will lose interest and simply wont turn up to games.

 

[maccas_no1]

Griffin is not going to be an elite ruckman, he has no presence, cant mark nor kick very well, what would we have lost?
Reilly is a good player but far from elite and injury prone.
But Craig in his wisdom ruled out trading them.

I agree I called for the Reilly trade several times in the early off season, he doesnt have that flair, he doesnt have that excitment and as you highlight is in the medical room more than out of it

 

[Macca19]

Not sure on the loop hole

I guess because of these injuries Hird flew under the radar of most clubs however due to his connection with the Bombers they knew a lot more about him

Essendon probably were the only team willing to research and find a way to get around the NSW/ACT rule at the time. Other clubs probably didnt care too much.

 

[Crow-mo]

Trust me, they do.

why would I do that? Neil Craigs wife is more critical than you

Ah but they HAVE changed. Thereby your clever and witty analogy is funny but basically pointless.

only if you miss the point.

Not many successful businesses broadcast their intentions ahead of a big deal. I have no doubt we are the same. You hear what they WANT you to hear. The rest is none of your damned business.

is that in your experience?
because it is very, very untrue. that is quite contrary to the relationship between big business and its stock analysts. execution is the point, not secret strategy. don't mislead them under any circumstance.

Not sure of the relevance of this statement seeing as we are ALL concerned about the future path of the Club.

no, I don't imagine you do.

Ah Wallet.... wonder if he will ever deliver?

probably not, but he's kept them sweet with empty promises about tomorrow, so who cares?

Too early to tell. Lets bookmark this thread for 2011. Then we'll discuss whether your pessimism or my optimism is warranted.

Its not too early, and I'm surprised you can't see the irony here.

your optimism can't be validated because its blind.

I can say the temperature will be 27.3 degrees maximum on september 23, 2011. I might be right (unlikely though), but as its based on plucking something out of the air, and not based on any knowledge or analysis - how much credit should I claim if it comes off?

 

[tribey]

Essendon probably were the only team willing to research and find a way to get around the NSW/ACT rule at the time. Other clubs probably didnt care too much.

See this is the thing. The Draft and those procedures back then weren't considered to be the be-all and end-all as they are today cause the Vic sides still had Reserves, U19s and U17s and teams like WCE, Sydney and Brisbane had substantial Zone Selection arrangements.

If you remember Greg Miller famously buying the rights to both Wayne Carey and John Longmire off the Swans for just $10000 and Brisbane illegally listing Nathan Buckley as part of another piece of Miller brilliance (that ultimately backfired), it's not that hard to picture Essendon getting around any NSW/ACT loophole at the time when they're the only game in town.

 

[Zvim]

I think Adelaide hasn't been aggressive when it comes to the list management. Not that I think you have a bad list but the Crows don't seem to trade much and you don't really finish low enough to get a look at many good draft picks.

I think it will be a self-correcting process, if you don't pick the players up then you will sooner or later drift down the ladder and you will start getting the picks by default. I think the only way to avoid sinking low and having a bad period is to be aggressive with the trading for young talent, making room on the list so you can put on 2 or 3 extra kids that are not quite there at their age but are too young to be rookied and use the rookie list aggressively.

 

[Crow-mo]

Not sure on the loop hole

However, the year Hird was drafted he spent most of the year on the side line injured and played very little footy for Ainslie in the ACT

Hird's run with injuries continued in his first year at the Bombers, he played little to no footy

I guess because of these injuries Hird flew under the radar of most clubs however due to his connection with the Bombers they knew a lot more about him

pretty much the same situation with Davis this year, the crows were happy for Davis to sit out most of the season injured as it took him off the radar

no, its nothing like that at all. there are no secrets these days, just different judgements on merit and worth.

 

[Crow-mo]

No, as you say we are a 'nice' club, in the end fans will lose interest and simply wont turn up to games.

no. that won't happen either.

we will continue to do a good job of what we do, and we will continue to be very popular.

 

[Crow-mo]

compare 2001, 2004 and 2008 where you can get the likes of Judd, Hodge, Franklin, Deledio, Griffen, Naitanui, Watts etc while other years at best you get the likes of Sylvia, Goddard or Thomas - good players but a long way below other years where you are picking up genuine genuine guns of the competition.

Luck with injuries also plays a part, Judd falls to 3, Selwood falls to 7, Swift falls all the way to 20 after the knee reco and clubs won't touch him with a first round pick yet has every tool possible to be elite and looks to be round 1 ready. Other years you get Muston & Dowler who can barely get on the park and never look close to where they were pre injury.

um.... what's wrong with this picture?

 

[Crow-mo]

Brisbane illegally listing Nathan Buckley as part of another piece of Miller brilliance (that ultimately backfired),

not sure about this.

yes he was signed and sealed to go to North, after doing a year at brisbane, which was gazumped at the last minute. which always makes me laugh when collingwood fans say he was only prepared to play for collingwood

but I didn't think he was illegally listed by brisbane?

 

[jenny61_99]

no, its nothing like that at all. there are no secrets these days, just different judgements on merit and worth.

Crow-mo they may be more open with shareholders and stakeholders (as is their responsibility)... but are they this way with the competition? Absolutely not. They don't telegraph to their opponents that they are after Joe Bloggs in a trade and going to offer player x in return. They do it surreptitiously so no other competitor gets wind of it and tries to outbid or sabotage - and if nothing comes of it, nobody is the wiser.

You know, your condescending comments don't make it any easier to read or understand your intentions at times. Perhaps if you said what you meant rather than go for witty you'd achieve your goal?

 

[tribey]

not sure about this.

yes he was signed and sealed to go to North, after doing a year at brisbane, which was gazumped at the last minute. which always makes me laugh when collingwood fans say he was only prepared to play for collingwood

but I didn't think he was illegally listed by brisbane?

In Bucks' book Shane O'Sullivan mentions how in order for the Bears to list a Qld/NT zone player, he has to have played at least 1 game for Brisbane Reserves. Hence they'd shuttle a lot of them over to pull on the boots for a game or two to qualify them.

Bucks of course never did this, playing for Port Adelaide in the southern season and straight home to Southern Districts in the NTFL for the northern season.

The AFL still ratified his listing, which is why Bucks and North were peeved when they were hauled before the commission for draft tampering given the league was basically in on it (most likely due to carelessness more than anything - see Ebert father/son debacle) - they had the power to nix the entire thing to begin with.

 

[Crow-mo]

Crow-mo they may be more open with shareholders and stakeholders (as is their responsibility)...but are they this way with the competition? Absolutely not.

its not about responsibility or anything like that. but if the stakeholders are not absolutely up to speed with the plan, they will abandon you. its about trust, and full information. most strategy isn't secret, its about whether you can actually do it.

analyst reports are published and given away for free. for example when BHP wanted to buy Rio Tinto, everyone new why, what they planned to do with it, how they valued it, and what sort of shape they saw the combined entity as. now, it doesn't mean everyone goes along with it, or agrees, but it ain't a secret. there is no cone of silence.

They don't telegraph to their opponents that they are after Joe Bloggs in a trade and going to offer player x in return. They do it surreptitiously so no other competitor gets wind of it and tries to outbid or sabotage - and if nothing comes of it, nobody is the wiser.

that's all very well, but again it ignores the way negotiations really happen. I presume you're now talking about footy? in the AFL trading is largely done in the newspapers, courting public opinion. if you have one offer, certain clubs absolutely telegraph to other clubs what the offer is, and what they want.

ideally they wouldn't, but they still do. when Port Adelaide said "no.4 is on the table come and get it" or North said "McIntosh available to a good home" or Sydney announced "O'Keefe want's out, serious offers only" how much were they worried about their competitors finding out?

when Adelaide says we don't like trading, and we won't be: that could be a red herring; however when they return home from trade week and do no trades - then we can put 2 and 2 together, and come up with something other than 22!

You know, your condescending comments don't make it any easier to read or understand your intentions at times. Perhaps if you said what you meant rather than go for witty you'd achieve your goal?

my point is, in all seriousness, you are a sheepdog. you will believe whatever the clubs tells you, and I get that. But its not a very useful perspective to discuss what the club might do differently or where we are.

when you start a post with "trust me, the clubs is doing everything" I know I don't need to continue reading the rest. I do, because sometimes I can't help myself but I don't need to.

 

[Crow-mo]

In Bucks' book Shane O'Sullivan mentions how in order for the Bears to list a Qld/NT zone player, he has to have played at least 1 game for Brisbane Reserves. Hence they'd shuttle a lot of them over to pull on the boots for a game or two to qualify them.

Bucks of course never did this, playing for Port Adelaide in the southern season and straight home to Southern Districts in the NTFL for the northern season.

The AFL still ratified his listing, which is why Bucks and North were peeved when they were hauled before the commission for draft tampering given the league was basically in on it (most likely due to carelessness more than anything - see Ebert father/son debacle) - they had the power to nix the entire thing to begin with.

OK, that's interesting. Garry Linnell's book Footy Ltd talks a lot about the negotiations to get Buckley to North, and how they had to go via brisbane - but it doesn't really go into the detail of why buckley was tied to brisbane.

 

[*PAF]

OK, that's interesting. Garry Linnell's book Footy Ltd talks a lot about the negotiations to get Buckley to North, and how they had to go via brisbane - but it doesn't really go into the detail of why buckley was tied to brisbane.

NT players were tied to Brisbane for a few years.
Neither Buckley nor White wanted to go there but had no choice IIRC.
White even went back home to Alice Springs rather than play there but Walls went there and convinced him to give it a go.

Once the new Gold Coast team come in we become North West Queensland again I think.

 

[The Crows Truth]

And the 3rd way and possiably out most likely way of obtaining these players os with club development. See Simon Goodwin, Tyson Edwards, Nathan Bassett, Nathan Bock, Ben Rutten and Jason Porplyzia. All drafted via the PSD or rookie list and given significant game time early in their career.

It's a major pet hate of mine where we here this statement that players are not ready for AFL. I always call bull shit. Ben Hart and Mark Ricciuto (as well as many, many other players over time have been played before they were ready) just to name were not physically ready to play AFL football as 17 year olds and they did.

C98, you do realise that Hart sat out the whole of 1991 because he wasnt deemed physically ready for AFL? And then when he did debut in 1992 = AA

 

[The Crows Truth]

Alot of those supposedly financial powerhouse clubs swing up and down drastically depending on results, we're in general fairly dependable. We have a very solid base, that i feel we could use more aggressively. I think our financial position is pretty darn good in reality. Our operating profit last year compares kinda favourably to Collingwoods btw

i dont think thats the case. pies operating profit BEFORE abnormal items was 2.5M plus IIRC

 

[jenny61_99]

its not about responsibility or anything like that. but if the stakeholders are not absolutely up to speed with the plan, they will abandon you. its about trust, and full information. most strategy isn't secret, its about whether you can actually do it.

analyst reports are published and given away for free. for example when BHP wanted to buy Rio Tinto, everyone new why, what they planned to do with it, how they valued it, and what sort of shape they saw the combined entity as. now, it doesn't mean everyone goes along with it, or agrees, but it ain't a secret. there is no cone of silence.

that's all very well, but again it ignores the way negotiations really happen. I presume you're now talking about footy? in the AFL trading is largely done in the newspapers, courting public opinion. if you have one offer, certain clubs absolutely telegraph to other clubs what the offer is, and what they want.

ideally they wouldn't, but they still do. when Port Adelaide said "no.4 is on the table come and get it" or North said "McIntosh available to a good home" or Sydney announced "O'Keefe want's out, serious offers only" how much were they worried about their competitors finding out?

when Adelaide says we don't like trading, and we won't be: that could be a red herring; however when they return home from trade week and do no trades - then we can put 2 and 2 together, and come up with something other than 22!

Certainly once it gets to that "going public" stage, much negotiation has already taken place behind closed doors and that's what I'm talking about. And while some, like Port, might shout "give us your best shot for #4" from the roof tops, others will have their target list and players they are willing to trade with and quietly go about it. To think that doesn't happen is just naive. Of course whether they get what they want is entirely up to the other Club they are negotiating with.

my point is, in all seriousness, you are a sheepdog. you will believe whatever the clubs tells you, and I get that. But its not a very useful perspective to discuss what the club might do differently or where we are.

when you start a post with "trust me, the clubs is doing everything" I know I don't need to continue reading the rest. I do, because sometimes I can't help myself but I don't need to.

The saddest part about that comment is that because I disagree with your viewpoint, I am a "sheepdog". Could it not be that my opinion could possibly be right? Or that perhaps we BOTH could be partly right?

Oh and I am pretty sure I didn't say "the club's doing everything"... I am pretty sure I said, "trust me, they want to win" and I stand by that 100%. And it's not because "they" told me.