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[Artie Bucco]

I never said they go straight into the developer jobs. I said straight into the industry. As Bosun said, all his useful skills were gained on the job.

Bolded - That is what I am saying, you're agreeing that you don't need to study IT at uni. What you're seeing there is the old mindset that Uni = smarter. Think of how many people you know with Uni degrees who actually still work in that field, I bet it's very few.

Slowly we are moving across to the realisation that VET is a more valuable learning environment, employers are starting to get this.



I wouldn't expect so if they were going straight for a job as a programmer, as with everything you still need to do your time at the bottom of the pile. You wouldn't see too many coming straight out of Uni and landing the roles either.



Data security and encryption.

Uni doesn't necessarily mean smarter, although in most cases it does.

Think of it this way though, you have 2 people applying for the same job. Same IQ / intelligence. One has come out of high school, the other out of a relevant IT course at uni.

Assuming they both score the same in the interview / testing, who will the business hire?

Why would you waste money on training someone to get to the same level as another potential employee who would already have that knowledge from uni? (at no expense to the business) Of course the uni graduate will need to be trained to a degree to meet industry standards, however not nearly as much as the guy straight out of high school.

 

[Niximus]

Uni doesn't necessarily mean smarter, although in most cases it does.

Think of it this way though, you have 2 people applying for the same job. Same IQ / intelligence. One has come out of high school, the other out of a relevant IT course at uni.

Assuming they both score the same in the interview / testing, who will the business hire?

Why would you waste money on training someone to get to the same level as another potential employee who would already have that knowledge from uni? (at no expense to the business) Of course the uni graduate will need to be trained to a degree to meet industry standards, however not nearly as much as the guy straight out of high school.

That is the traditional mindset. What we're seeing is a trend now towards VET being recognised as more beneficial to the business.

The idea that someone that who learned on the job is at a lower level to someone who went to Uni is outdated.

As others have said, the skills are able to be learned elsewhere, now employers are choosing between the person out of uni and the person who has acquired the same skills on the job and so has more relevant and varied experience.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

Uni for IT?

If you're not capable by the time you're 15 give up.

do you have any idea how hard it is to "get into the industry" without at the very least a degree, if not a masters?

I can absolutely tell you that that you are well behind the 8-ball w/o uni qualifications in this industry.

You don't appear to understand how comepetitive it is. Even before the market tanked, juniors without qualifications are in a very bad place. At best they'll get shitty little jobs with shittly little companies and it's very hard to break that cycle.

As for Express IT.... LOL. IT recruiters wouldn't hire someone with those "qualifications" on principle

 

[Brad Goodman]

I'm waiting for when medicine entails just on-the-job training.

Although to be fair, if I didn't know all about it at 15, I'm not going to learn it now.

 

[Niximus]

I'm waiting for when medicine entails just on-the-job training.

Although to be fair, if I didn't know all about it at 15, I'm not going to learn it now.

Hardly a comparison, as appropriate as suggesting Uni for a job as a professional footballer.

 

[Artie Bucco]

That is the traditional mindset. What we're seeing is a trend now towards VET being recognised as more beneficial to the business.

The idea that someone that who learned on the job is at a lower level to someone who went to Uni is outdated.

As others have said, the skills are able to be learned elsewhere, now employers are choosing between the person out of uni and the person who has acquired the same skills on the job and so has more relevant and varied experience.

Sure someone who's learned on the job will not be lower than someone out of uni. I know someone who worked at one of the big banks started in internet call centre and worked their way up in 15 years to be some sort of analyst earning over $150k p.a.

But my point is, this rarely happens.

Go back to my point, you have the guy straight out of high school with no relevant qualifications, why would a business take him over the uni graduate?

The cost to train the high school grad far outweighs what it would to train the uni graduate. It just doesn't happen in the real world, there's no logic in doing so.

 

[Niximus]

Sure someone who's learned on the job will not be lower than someone out of uni. I know someone who worked at one of the big banks started in internet call centre and worked their way up in 15 years to be some sort of analyst earning over $150k p.a.

But my point is, this rarely happens.

Go back to my point, you have the guy straight out of high school with no relevant qualifications, why would a business take him over the uni graduate?

The cost to train the high school grad far outweighs what it would to train the uni graduate. It just doesn't happen in the real world, there's no logic in doing so.

As was discussed a few pages back you do your time at the bottom of course.

As your friend started in the call centre there doesn't need to be a clear "this step-then this step" progression.

You get your foot in the door at a company, you start off as a shit kicker, you apply for a slightly better job, then a bit better one. They say that the current generation could have 15 jobs in their lifetime and the next 25-30 spanning around 3 'careers'.

The people competing for the jobs the uni graduates are applying for are no longer fresh out or school, they have been working in the industry, perhaps at the very company the job is at, they know people who know people and they have the same skills combined with workplace experience. It is even more pronounced if you want a government position as they love to promote in-house first.

 

[Artie Bucco]

Doing it that way, starting as the shit kicker takes 10 years to get anywhere near the level that the uni graduates get to in their first year.

Uni- 3-4 years.
VET - 10 years.

It doesn't add up, which detracts from your original statement being

Uni for IT?

If you're not capable by the time you're 15 give up.

If you don't know stuff in high school, you're already behind.

Unless you have a small business that is willing to train you up, no large company will take you on. The only way is starting at the bottom for many years, which is a complete waste if you are knowledgable

 

[Niximus]

Doing it that way, starting as the shit kicker takes 10 years to get anywhere near the level that the uni graduates get to in their first year.

Uni- 3-4 years.
VET - 10 years.

Far less than 10 years if you have the attitude and work ethic., if you're under 25 you'll benefit from the change in mindset away from uni to VET when you apply for jobs and you also get industry contacts at business. It's always more about who you know.

Even should the VET pathway be a little longer, you have been earning for those 4 years and don't have a HECS debt.

It doesn't add up, which detracts from your original statement being

not at all, VET is the future and in IT if you're not already very much into it and functional by your teen years your going to be one step behind the whole way.

Unless you have a small business that is willing to train you up, no large company will take you on. The only way is starting at the bottom for many years, which is a complete waste if you are knowledgable

Of course they will, you just have to be prepared to start at the bottom, low level tech work, work the office. Getting your foot in the door is the most important step.

 

[Lance Uppercut]

not at all, VET is the future and in IT if you're not already very much into it and functional by your teen years your going to be one step behind the whole way.

you don't understand. In general, maybethe points you make are valid.

But people aren't going to uni to "learn" IT - they are going there to hone their skills, and to gain crucial qualifications.

I can tell you, even getting a "foot in the door" is nigh on impossible, given 99% of your competitors have tertiary degrees. It's not like leaving High School in year 10 to take up a sparky apprenticeship. It's an intensely competitive industry, which makes Express IT all the more laughable.

Then, even if you do get your foot in the door, without the qualifications it is that much harder to break the cycle of shitty companies.

If a recruiters sees a candidate has only worked at crappy 2 bit Ma and Pa consultancies or as a generalist web/admin/systems shit-kicker, why would he put that candidate forward to the good sites, when he has 50 other candidates who have worked at good sites?

Of course they will, you just have to be prepared to start at the bottom, low level tech work, work the office. Getting your foot in the door is the most important step.

Wrong. That just means you'll be most likely stuck in low-level tech work for the rest of your days. Yes, some organisations will train someone up to save a bit of coin - but why would they invest all that time and money when they can simply hire someone with the skills already?

Like it or not, tertiary qualifications are almost a bare minimum you need to get ahead in this industry

 

[Niximus]

Like it or not, tertiary qualifications are almost a bare minimum you need to get ahead in this industry

VET is tertiary.

I do not dispute that you need qualifications just the best method of obtaining them. As others have said, they learned their valuable skills on-the-job.

With RPL nowdays you get official recognition of what you're learning.

Yes, there are some employers out there who won't look at you if you don't have a uni degree, they are becoming fewer in number.

 

[tempting]

what they aren't telling you is the disparity in wages between IT plebs who do most of the work and IT management who make the decisions

a plebs wage would be around the 40-50k mark i'd imagine, maganement anywhere upto 250k (and then positions in between too)

i've worked in IT for 8 years, don't earn anywhere near 90k!!

ps - its time!!!

You need to be more assertive with your career.

I've worked in IT for 4 years and i'm as technical as a doofus but I earn over 100k

If you're sitting on a help desk then you only have yourself to blame.

 

[tempting]

you don't understand. In general, maybethe points you make are valid.

But people aren't going to uni to "learn" IT - they are going there to hone their skills, and to gain crucial qualifications.

I can tell you, even getting a "foot in the door" is nigh on impossible, given 99% of your competitors have tertiary degrees. It's not like leaving High School in year 10 to take up a sparky apprenticeship. It's an intensely competitive industry, which makes Express IT all the more laughable.

Then, even if you do get your foot in the door, without the qualifications it is that much harder to break the cycle of shitty companies.

If a recruiters sees a candidate has only worked at crappy 2 bit Ma and Pa consultancies or as a generalist web/admin/systems shit-kicker, why would he put that candidate forward to the good sites, when he has 50 other candidates who have worked at good sites?



Wrong. That just means you'll be most likely stuck in low-level tech work for the rest of your days. Yes, some organisations will train someone up to save a bit of coin - but why would they invest all that time and money when they can simply hire someone with the skills already?

Like it or not, tertiary qualifications are almost a bare minimum you need to get ahead in this industry

Negative!

 

[Artie Bucco]

You need to be more assertive with your career.

I've worked in IT for 4 years and i'm as technical as a doofus but I earn over 100k

If you're sitting on a help desk then you only have yourself to blame.

What do you do?

 

[tempting]

What do you do?

Product Project Manager.

Work with loads of Technical experts and they're all on over 100k.

 

[Artie Bucco]

Product Project Manager.

Work with loads of Technical experts and they're all on over 100k.

Ok, so that's a little misleading. You work within IT but your job doesn't require any IT aspects

 

[tempting]

Ok, so that's a little misleading. You work within IT but your job doesn't require any IT aspects

Yes it does.

 

[Artie Bucco]

Yes it does.

Such as? not having a go, just interested

 

[tempting]

Such as? not having a go, just interested

I know.
Managing the implentation of new technology requires an overall view on how everything works.

 

[Artie Bucco]

I know.
Managing the implentation of new technology requires an overall view on how everything works.

I see, so like consulting in a way? You talk with the techs and also with whoever is higher than you and act like a bridge?

 

[AjsGuns]

I know this could be on the media and entertainment board but it seems more of a general rant....

Anyway, who has seen these Express IT ads on late at night? They tell you how you can study a course for x amount of time, then land a job in the 'booming' IT industry earning *$89,000 a year, pfft yeah right!

Anyway the thing that gets me about these ads are the people standing there, they all look like the sort of people you see on Today Tonight on one of those doddy neighbors ads, and they all seem to be in need of serious dental work. Not one of the people on these ads look like they could land a job at your local Bunnings, let alone the 'booming' It industry.

The people off the adds arnt actually doing the course. There just pulled off the streets and given $500 each add. One of the guys in the Add used to go to my school and told me.