Fiora

[JohnF]

JohnF,
You claim that it is paramount to bad luck that all of these young men come into a club and dont live up to expectations. And therefore seem to think that there was nothing that the club could have done about it.

No, not bad luck. We had bad recruiting and bad recruiting strategies. That first and foremost is what has farrked us up, especially most recently. Not to mention the crappy game plan which Frawley brought over from your miserable mob and instilled in the team.

I don't deny that we didn't have the best management, training facilities etc at the club. I just think that on the whole if players were any good they became good at Richmond. The club probably could have got a bit more out of some blokes, others were duds from the word go.

I certainly don't believe that the mismanagement of players and the culture of the place was first and foremost thing that dragged players down.

I dont know how much you know about the coaching theories at StKilda but they spend a lot of time teaching the players about mental toughness. Then they take them on overseas traing camps where they are also taught about mental toughness by world champion athletes, boxers and so on.

lmfaooo! Do they also give them the Tony Robbins life package down there?

How about teaching them to ******** on chicks at bars or go out and get schitfaced and smash cars? Mate your culture is a joke and the only reason you are anywhere is becuase of the AFL safety net giving you first round draft picks every year.

LMFAOOOOOO@learning about mental toughness from going to a two hour seminar. Mental toughness, on the whole, cannot be taught. You are either born with it or you aren't. I'm not saying sports psychology isn't important, but I think you are overrating St.Kilda's competance in it by saying the players went on a few trips around the globe talking to some great athletes.

This is about management, Mental toughness, heart whatever can be instilled in people though putting an evironment in place where they are keen to strive for such things.

Or is it simply that StKilda are just that much better at picking players.

I must say, you do have an uncanny knack for finding the best talent in the country. It's got a little something to do with repeatedly getting the best draft picks available and using them wisely.

Why do you think a young player in the AFL would want to sleep all the time if life at his club was so engaging. Maybe it was cause he was depressed with his work life and no-one gave him the support he required.

Or maybe it was just that he was lazy and looking for excuses. The only reason Fiora has put on weight now is through the fear that this is his last chance and he could find himself out on the dole if he doesn't pull his finger out. He was living off the potential tag at Richmond and milking it for all it was worth with the minimum of work required.

Like I said, I bet he doesn't do anything more than what he showed for Richmond. He'll show a bit of promise early then revert to his true nature.

 

[astro_toby]

Knights was flashier than Campbell, but Campbell had more substance.

another to add to the agree to disagree pile

I think Campbell was as good as Lappin and would probably have gotten a game with Black and Voss in the centre square.

YIKES!!!! dont let the Lions ppl see that!! they will (rightly) go nutters about that! Lappin has class on top of the ability to accumulate possesions! Any sane coach would chose Nigel Lappin at his best over Wayne Campbell at his best. That is an absolute given.

Have Richo or Johnson ever won a B&F in their times? No. No wonder they jumped on Cogs as a saviour. He surpassed the so called senior marquee players. One and a half years of good footy isn't much but its a year and a half more than most blokes down there.

This is richmonds biggest problem. it was absolutely selfish of the club to place so much pressure on such a young player. one good young player and they are putting his face on a billboard! Johnson & richo have proven much more than Coughlan has. He is a great player - I agree 100%. but he is a good YOUNG player, and they need to have a "HANDLE WITH CARE" Sticker on them.
And winning a B& F at richmond means nothing - as you have already called most of the players USELESS FLANKERS - and if Wayne Campbell can win the damned thing that many times - obviously its not worth much. He also won the award in a very weak year.

 

[JohnF]

Astro, if you want to quote someone in patches have [ / Q U O T E] written at the end of the paragraph, with no spaces in between

 

[JohnF]

YIKES!!!! dont let the Lions ppl see that!! they will (rightly) go nutters about that! Lappin has class on top of the ability to accumulate possesions! Any sane coach would chose Nigel Lappin at his best over Wayne Campbell at his best. That is an absolute given.

Nigel Lappin was an absolute shocker in fromt of goals until very recently. He could never finish off. Campbell as much as he gets bagged for his disposal has been very good in fromt of goals and very good with his disposals in general play. Lappin gets more clean disposals out than Campbell but that is to be expected when you are playing on the wing or recieving like Lappin usually does. It's another thing to pin point passes when you are clearing the ball in packs.

Any sane coach would rather Lappin than Campbell. I wouldn't agree with that. Lappin is in a very succesful team now and so is getting rim jobbed quite a bit. If you look close at both players in their prime I don't think there is much that seperates them.

This is richmonds biggest problem. it was absolutely selfish of the club to place so much pressure on such a young player. one good young player and they are putting his face on a billboard! Johnson & richo have proven much more than Coughlan has. He is a great player - I agree 100%. but he is a good YOUNG player, and they need to have a "HANDLE WITH CARE" Sticker on them.

How has Johnson proved more than Coughlan? Oh that's right he was in two premiership teams. Hey did you know that Capuano has proved more than Coughlan too then?

Johnson has proven nothing more than Coughlan.

Richo has been brilliant/shocking for a long time and it's clear they wanted to focus on someone new for a change. They've been building Richo up as the messiah for ten years, it was time to give someone else a go.

And winning a B& F at richmond means nothing - as you have already called most of the players USELESS FLANKERS - and if Wayne Campbell can win the damned thing that many times - obviously its not worth much. He also won the award in a very weak year.

I said flakers, not flankers.

Winning a B&F doesn't mean much on a whole competition level, but it certainly sorts out the good from the bad within the club.

If Wayne Campbell can win the thing that many times it means you should look to problems elsewhere and not bag him for our schit performances. He ain't the problem.

Are you referring to Campbell winning the award in a weak year or Coughlan?

Campbell has won it in all sorts of years. Won in in 95 when we finished 3rd. Came second in 2001 when we finished 4th. Won it 97 and 99 when we were crappy and 2002 when we were crappier.

 

[TasSaint]

I honestly feel pity for you JohnF. You dont need to devalue the experince that can be gained from a truely loving and supporting environment because you attended the school of hard knocks.

I am quite happy in the knowledge that StKilda are nuturing young talent with a degree of responsibility and care. That they dont shirk at issues and genuinly care. That care is responded to by the players in kind. That is what playing for the jumper is truely about.

If you wish to denigrate this love with your vitreol then that is your perogative but from my position I ask who is the more well adjusted of the two of us. And that in a sese is what your fellow tigers supporter has been trying to tell you about the club.

Take the hard line approach see how it goes. But if I were the parent of an AFL footballer I would be more than happy for them to be developing their talent at Stkilda. It also seems the chances of you regarding them as a worthwile person and a good footballer would be much greater at StKilda too.

 

[JohnF]

I honestly feel pity for you JohnF. You dont need to devalue the experince that can be gained from a truely loving and supporting environment because you attended the school of hard knocks.

Thanks for feeling pity for me mate. It's nice to know that people I've never even met care for me. It's restored my faith in humanity and I almost feel like calling Fiora back to the club to give him another chance.

Alas, come back at the end of the year and tell me what your truly loving and supporting enviroment do for Fiora.

I am quite happy in the knowledge that StKilda are nuturing young talent with a degree of responsibility and care. That they dont shirk at issues and genuinly care. That care is responded to by the players in kind. That is what playing for the jumper is truely about.

Spoken like a man that has just robbed the national draft of all its talent in the last 5 years. lmfaoooo@Nick Reiwoldt becoming a star becuase of the degree of care Grant Thomas has shown.

If you wish to denigrate this love with your vitreol then that is your perogative but from my position I ask who is the more well adjusted of the two of us. And that in a sese is what your fellow tigers supporter has been trying to tell you about the club.

You can show blind faith and unconditional love if you want, I'll continue my maladjusted position of giving praise where its warranted and criticism when it's warranted.

Take the hard line approach see how it goes. But if I were the parent of an AFL footballer I would be more than happy for them to be developing their talent at Stkilda. It also seems the chances of you regarding them as a worthwile person and a good footballer would be much greater at StKilda too.

Every club has their diickheads and their good people. I don't see any evidence of St.Kilda producing better people than any other club.

As for good footballers, I commend you for being shyzen for years on end and getting the best talent in the land, Enjoy.

 

[jezza]

Astro, I feel a lot of your arguments about Campbell were valid, but for last year only when he played poorly and like almost all of our players, suffered under our gameplan (or lake thereof).

Campbell disposal has been first class for a long long time, for the last decade or more we have been a side with generally poor footskills and he has been a shining light. Like many of our better players, he is tarnished with being a part of such a losing side, people find it impossible to believe a player can be great when a side is doing so badly.

 

[astro_toby]

John F, u gotta give the saints credit some of the development. We also would have recieved alot of help from the draft if we didnt constantly trade away our first rounders. And in regards to Nick, i can see a point, but at the same time - We managed to mess up Ottens and ppl saw him as a certain superstar. not as certain as Nick i do admit. we would have had wells, johnson, davey, and farren ray if we hadnt traded so many. and also pavlich instead of fiora. if we had played our cards right, and as well as the saints, we too would be the envy of other clubs with our young talent. Instead we chose to trade them for developed players. i really wish we had taken davey over Marsh (my head hurts at that thought)

NOTE: We still would have gotten Johnson, if we had not fell victim to over paying Ben Holland in 2001. He was offered in a deal along with some draft choice swaps of some sort.

The saints have had help, but we have had similar help, and i think the point is that they certainly made more of their opportunitys than us

 

[Bentleigh]

John F, u gotta give the saints credit some of the development. We also would have recieved alot of help from the draft if we didnt constantly trade away our first rounders. And in regards to Nick, i can see a point, but at the same time - We managed to mess up Ottens and ppl saw him as a certain superstar. not as certain as Nick i do admit. we would have had wells, johnson, davey, and farren ray if we hadnt traded so many. and also pavlich instead of fiora. if we had played our cards right, and as well as the saints, we too would be the envy of other clubs with our young talent. Instead we chose to trade them for developed players. i really wish we had taken davey over Marsh (my head hurts at that thought)

NOTE: We still would have gotten Johnson, if we had not fell victim to over paying Ben Holland in 2001. He was offered in a deal along with some draft choice swaps of some sort.

The saints have had help, but we have had similar help, and i think the point is that they certainly made more of their opportunitys than us

Your team could have had Wells & Goodard as well...

 

[astro_toby]

Astro, I feel a lot of your arguments about Campbell were valid, but for last year only when he played poorly and like almost all of our players, suffered under our gameplan (or lake thereof).

Campbell disposal has been first class for a long long time, for the last decade or more we have been a side with generally poor footskills and he has been a shining light. Like many of our better players, he is tarnished with being a part of such a losing side, people find it impossible to believe a player can be great when a side is doing so badly.

I do believe Campbell is a good player, i just don't think he has ever been close to being a Champion player. The word champion shouldnt be used lightly, and yes, he has had numerous outstanding performances. But has he had numerous performances where he won the game from his own boot? Thats what makes a champion. I struggle to think of a game where here soley got us over the line. unlike the likes of hird, buckley, kouta, Carey, Williams, Jarman and such. They are a league above him. Knights i can even remember having such games.

Campbell has been a great player and a good servant for the club, but he doesnt rate along our other champions i believe, and to include him alongside Bartlett, Dyer, Roach and co. is not comparable. Lets save the champion tag for someone who is amazing - not just great.

 

[jezza]

NOTE: We still would have gotten Johnson, if we had not fell victim to over paying Ben Holland in 2001. He was offered in a deal along with some draft choice swaps of some sort.

This is one stuff-up that will hurt for years. The Ottens saga gives me hope we won't ever repeat it.

 

[astro_toby]

Your team could have had Wells & Goodard as well...

if i was talking about carlton i would go to the carlton room. but yes they could have - but they didn't because they got penalised. They accepted it, voted out the reason for such a terrible thing happening, and moved forward. And amazingly, they have came along way since those days, in a very short time. Carlton only made that mistake and it sure cost them dearly. But richmond have been making those same mistakes since the very first draft ever conducted.

 

[JohnF]

John F, u gotta give the saints credit some of the development. We also would have recieved alot of help from the draft if we didnt constantly trade away our first rounders. And in regards to Nick, i can see a point, but at the same time - We managed to mess up Ottens and ppl saw him as a certain superstar. not as certain as Nick i do admit. we would have had wells, johnson, davey, and farren ray if we hadnt traded so many. and also pavlich instead of fiora. if we had played our cards right, and as well as the saints, we too would be the envy of other clubs with our young talent. Instead we chose to trade them for developed players. i really wish we had taken davey over Marsh (my head hurts at that thought)

NOTE: We still would have gotten Johnson, if we had not fell victim to over paying Ben Holland in 2001. He was offered in a deal along with some draft choice swaps of some sort.

The saints have had help, but we have had similar help, and i think the point is that they certainly made more of their opportunitys than us

Yep, as I've admitted myself, our recruiting and recruiting strategies have been woeful the last 5 (really 20) years in particular. I think the coaching staff and the recruiting staff should carry more of the blame for these mistakes than the supporters and the culture of the place.

 

[astro_toby]

Yep, as I've admitted myself, our recruiting and recruiting strategies have been woeful the last 5 (really 20) years in particular. I think the coaching staff and the recruiting staff should carry more of the blame for these mistakes than the supporters and the culture of the place.

of course the coaches are a major cause. But i just feel that The board, and the constant urgency and pressure based on the club and coach's to perform or face the wrath of the tiger Army has made it difficult for the club to bite the bullet and completely re-build. Frawley couldnt do it after 2001, because if we had a worse year than that, he knew he would start getting put under pressure, and lose his job. ITs that fear of failing and being sacked because the members will drop off, that has been the motive behind the "patch up instead of rebuilding" attitude of the board. we have been famous for our "coming out of the woodwork" when things become good and being missing when things are bad (although i don't think this has been a completely fair tag for us in recent years). I

 

[JohnF]

Every club is the same, no results = pressure. Didn't Schwab feel it at the Hawks? Didn't Watson feel it at the Saints? Didn't Judge feel it at the Eagles?

I think it's a misconception that Richmond is unique in placing pressure on its team to succeed or they go ape. Any other club is the same. Especially the big ones that demand sucess and have passionate supporters: Carlton, Essendon, Collingwood etc. You think Essendon fans wouldn't be going ape schit if they had the last 20 years we've had?

Frawley farrked up because he wasn't honest with himself that the team had just been brutalised by the standard bearer Brisbane and that it was a long way off a quick fix if we were to be premiership material. If he bit the bullet and made some hard decisions at the end of 2001 then he might still have a job now. Classic case of short sightedness by Frawley. He didn't understand the concept of one step backwards for two steps forward. he just thought progress is progress is progress and recruited older players that were either never good to begin with or had seen their best days already.

Frawley could have lived if 2002, 2003 were write offs (they were anyway) and we slowly started to make an ascend by 2004 and 2005. Instead we have been decimated and need to start the rebuild now.

More a case of Frawley being daft than a cultural malaise.

 

[astro_toby]

Every club is the same, no results = pressure. Didn't Schwab feel it at the Hawks? Didn't Watson feel it at the Saints? Didn't Judge feel it at the Eagles?

I think it's a misconception that Richmond is unique in placing pressure on its team to succeed or they go ape. Any other club is the same. Especially the big ones that demand sucess and have passionate supporters: Carlton, Essendon, Collingwood etc. You think Essendon fans wouldn't be going ape schit if they had the last 20 years we've had?

Frawley farrked up because he wasn't honest with himself that the team had just been brutalised by the standard bearer Brisbane and that it was a long way off a quick fix if we were to be premiership material. If he bit the bullet and made some hard decisions at the end of 2001 then he might still have a job now. Classic case of short sightedness by Frawley. He didn't understand the concept of one step backwards for two steps forward. he just thought progress is progress is progress and recruited older players that were either never good to begin with or had seen their best days already.

Frawley could have lived if 2003, 2003 were write offs and we slowly started to make an ascend by 2004 and 2005. Instead we have been decimated and need to start the rebuild now.

More a case of Frawley being daft than a cultural malaise.

All very good and true points. But we have had the same problem now for a very long time. This goes well beyond Frawleys time at the club. we have been this weak for 20 years more or less - minus the occassional year here and there. surely you cant say that every club has behaved as poorly and brutal in the tough times as richmonds have in the past 20years? im not saying we are all like that, im just saying we have more than the others like that. i dont think even collingwood ppl acted anywhere near as poorly as we did last year, and for a large portion of that year - they we very poor as well. they won some nothing games near the end of the season, which meant nothing. I think we might actially both agree with each other on this John, but just on different levels. If our culture isnt such a problem, why does miller have to keep telling us to stay calm and be patient? he has more or less supported these same views all along. and if he really trusted us to make the right choice in the election, he NEVER would have used himself as a "political tool" in the previous elections. He did it because we are unpredicatble and it was too important for us not to make those same mistakes.

I do believe that most of this stuff is behind us now - we just need to get through to many of the supporters that bagging our own players is just silly. especially at this time of year

 

[jezza]

Spot on John, what annoys me is that after we did so poorly in 2002 coming off a good year, we again went with a ridiculous draft policy. It clearly didn't work with the 2001 draft so I can't see why they again in 2002 went for rejects from other clubs.

 

[hotdogandsauce]

just alittle bit of inside info regarding miss fiona's apparent weight gain...

its all bull********, he has put on 1kg not the 7kg as per guru GT has been sprouting...

apparently guru GT just pumping up miss fiona's tyres...

 

[astro_toby]

has anyone seen a picture of him or anything? it would be fairly obvious to see if he had put on weight. do his wrists bones still stick out? where did you hear the inside info?

 

[Tambo]

has anyone seen a picture of him or anything? it would be fairly obvious to see if he had put on weight. do his wrists bones still stick out? where did you hear the inside info?

there was something in the hun around a week ago, take a look at the website, they have a pic in there,,,, i think?

 

[JohnF]

All very good and true points. But we have had the same problem now for a very long time. This goes well beyond Frawleys time at the club. we have been this weak for 20 years more or less - minus the occassional year here and there.

I can't speak for what went down in the 80's as it was mostly before my time. In the 90's for the most part I think we suffered quite a bit from being mediocre and thus recieving mediocre rewards from the national draft. For the most part we were never really shyte, but never really good. We were finishing 9th and being stuck with a dilemma to either wipe the slate clean or persevere with what we had and try and make a go of it with a few neat additions. Unfortunately it never came together.

surely you cant say that every club has behaved as poorly and brutal in the tough times as richmonds have in the past 20years?

No one has had our poor record to act like we do. Give any team's supporters the failure we've had and I'm sure there'd be a few more teams supporters with a reputation for being feral.

im not saying we are all like that, im just saying we have more than the others like that. i dont think even collingwood ppl acted anywhere near as poorly as we did last year, and for a large portion of that year - they we very poor as well. they won some nothing games near the end of the season, which meant nothing. I think we might actially both agree with each other on this John, but just on different levels.

Again the thing is Collingwood were just coming off back to back grand finals. If Richmond were coming off back to back grand finals we'd probably all be getting drunk and celebrating (given the mire we've faced). Heck, people still fondly reminicse about beating Essendon in a final in 95, even though we went on to get absolutely torched by 90 points the next week! ROFLMAO!

If our culture isnt such a problem, why does miller have to keep telling us to stay calm and be patient? he has more or less supported these same views all along. and if he really trusted us to make the right choice in the election, he NEVER would have used himself as a "political tool" in the previous elections. He did it because we are unpredicatble and it was too important for us not to make those same mistakes.

Ok, maybe we are a little more brittle than other clubs' supporters, lol, but overall I think we are doing pretty good after what we've endured. The cultural problem in so far as supporters go especially, is a little over dramatised for mine. Get the right bastards at the helm and we'll be fine.

I do believe that most of this stuff is behind us now - we just need to get through to many of the supporters that bagging our own players is just silly. especially at this time of year

Well we should support the guys when they show a willingness to do what is required. if they are playing like duds or being slack lets hack into them I say.

 

[JohnF]

Spot on John, what annoys me is that after we did so poorly in 2002 coming off a good year, we again went with a ridiculous draft policy. It clearly didn't work with the 2001 draft so I can't see why they again in 2002 went for rejects from other clubs.

The coup de grace for Frawley. When you consider that a couple of years ago he was saying Richmond was two years off winning a premiership its not hard to see just how deluded he actually was.

 

[astro_toby]

JohnF

I think we have beaten this convo as far as we can. i think we both have our views and can relate to the opposites, even if not its fully supported.we both know the past has sucked. we both know many things are now in place to give as some real belief that things can get better with time, and that we should try and support the players when they show a willingness to improve. maybe we can start it up again around round11 or something.

 

[JohnF]

lol done!

 

[oxx]

LMAOO


Well argued chaps.