First 22 in 2023

[BrizzyBandit]

Starc.

I think I'd go Berry, Ashcroft and Prior rotating on the wing. Ah Chee as the seventh forward or defender. Neale and McCluggage to continue their midfield time, with hopefully another midfielder to help out (or Robertson if he stays).

Something like:
B: Payne Adams Starcevich
HB: Coleman Andrews Answerth
C: Berry Neale Ashcroft
HF: Rayner Hipwood Bailey
F: McCarthy Daniher Cameron

R: McInerney McCluggage Robertson

I: Prior Ah Chee Fort Wilmot/Lohmann

Realistically, it's unlikely all of Zorko, Rich and Lyons will be out of the side, but I do think we've moved passed them based on their performance this year.

We have to make some more changes this coming year. Insanity doing thr same thing expecting a different result.


Achee. Payne. Andrews.
Wilmont. Adams. Colman.


Oscar. Neale. Starcevich.
Berry. Ashcroft. Mcluggage.

Hipwood. Rayner. Baily.
Mccarthy. Daniher. Cameron.

Extended Bench. Robertson, Lohmann, Prior, Rich, Zorko, Fort, Mathieson

 

[p4p1]

Starc.

We have to make some more changes this coming year. Insanity doing thr same thing expecting a different result.


Achee. Payne. Andrews.
Wilmont. Adams. Colman.


Oscar. Neale. Starcevich.
Berry. Ashcroft. Mcluggage.

Hipwood. Rayner. Baily.
Mccarthy. Daniher. Cameron.

Extended Bench. Robertson, Lohmann, Prior, Rich, Zorko, Fort, Mathieson

Is the idea behind this one to play Rayner as a tradition type CHF and Hipwood as a tall HFF?
I like the idea, Cam has many of the assets to be a CHF apart from height, which he does seem to be able to make up for. The oppo would likely still put their 2nd key tall on Hipwood because of his height anyway.

 

[Sproj]

It is interesting that no one has Gardiner in their side here yet we are apparently looking to re-sign him for three or so years. Are we just really missing something?

 

[Warwick]

It is interesting that no one has Gardiner in their side here yet we are apparently looking to re-sign him for three or so years. Are we just really missing something?

That would be a horrid decision IMO. Our money is better spent elsewhere. He’s too slow, too error prone, and too undisciplined. The number of times he loses touch with an opponent, arrives a second too late, or falls into the back of them… Is he really going to improve? We can’t be carrying blokes like Lyons, Gardiner, Rich, Zorko in the next couple of years who are too good for the seconds but shouldn’t be in our B22.

Linc McCarthy is another interesting one. He’s in pretty much every team but he needs to pull his finger out to stay there. He was tracking towards elite level early in the year and has completely fallen away. I back him to regain his best form but he should not get an easy pass.

 

[scoman]

It is interesting that no one has Gardiner in their side here yet we are apparently looking to re-sign him for three or so years. Are we just really missing something?

I certainly wouldn't be writing Gardiner off. I think injuries have played a big part in his performance over the last couple of years. Perhaps we could give him an extra long pre season to allow him to freshen up. He has the ability and the experience to be an important player for us.

 

[p4p1]

That would be a horrid decision IMO. Our money is better spent elsewhere. He’s too slow, too error prone, and too undisciplined. The number of times he loses touch with an opponent, arrives a second too late, or falls into the back of them… Is he really going to improve? We can’t be carrying blokes like Lyons, Gardiner, Rich, Zorko in the next couple of years who are too good for the seconds but shouldn’t be in our B22.

Linc McCarthy is another interesting one. He’s in pretty much every team but he needs to pull his finger out to stay there. He was tracking towards elite level early in the year and has completely fallen away. I back him to regain his best form but he should not get an easy pass.

The issue with Linc is he is a potential game changer/winner. I thought we should have dropped him at some point this year but when I probably would have dropped him he pops up and has a pearler.

 

[p4p1]

I certainly wouldn't be writing Gardiner off. I think injuries have played a big part in his performance over the last couple of years. Perhaps we could give him an extra long pre season to allow him to freshen up. He has the ability and the experience to be an important player for us.

If we were to agree that Payne is Gardiner's replacement, does Gardiner offer any more upside than Payne does? Personally I don't think so but he is worth keeping. He just can't be a lock in the first 22 based on his form over the past couple of years IMO.

 

[Sherrinator]

Is the idea behind this one to play Rayner as a tradition type CHF and Hipwood as a tall HFF?
I like the idea, Cam has many of the assets to be a CHF apart from height, which he does seem to be able to make up for. The oppo would likely still put their 2nd key tall on Hipwood because of his height anyway.

I feel way better playing Rayner as KF. Has real good stability and strength. Could be a revelation.

 

[davemc_lions]

The issue with Linc is he is a potential game changer/winner. I thought we should have dropped him at some point this year but when I probably would have dropped him he pops up and has a pearler.

Linc one of my Fav players
The problem all year we had way too many doing the same
Even during games someone bob up 10 touches or 2 goals in one qtr then not seen again
no idea what it is.. I only have Neale, Starc, Kiddy, Berry, Oscar who you count on week in and week out.
Rayner came good end of the year although played lots of ifffy games as we played him in the firsts after ACL so too Hipwood.

 

[p4p1]

I feel way better playing Rayner as KF. Has real good stability and strength. Could be a revelation.

I really like it and he is the one forward on our team I would back to smash packs apart if that was one of his instructions. Hippy doesn't have some of the attributes to be a true key forward IMO but I think his combination and athleticism could see him causing matchup nightmares for oppo if his role was tweaked a bit. We don't need wingers but a role like a wing for hippy could be unstoppable for other teams.

 

[davemc_lions]

I really like it and he is the one forward on our team I would back to smash packs apart if that was one of his instructions. Hippy doesn't have some of the attributes to be a true key forward IMO but I think his combination and athleticism could see him causing matchup nightmares for oppo if his role was tweaked a bit. We don't need wingers but a role like a wing for hippy could be unstoppable for other teams.

Hippy and Joe I look at as 200cm half forwards.. Or lead up forwards. They do not crash packs hence our dump kick gets picked off
Think of taller Elliot from the Pies.
Someone else said maybe Oscar forward as well and Fort as main ruck..

 

[mattsmob]

I feel way better playing Rayner as KF. Has real good stability and strength. Could be a revelation.

I don’t really get the Rayner as a KPF idea, it takes away from what should be one or his biggest strengths playing forward, his ability to physically dominate a smaller defender. He’s not lightning quick so probably can’t take full advantage on a lead against a KPD and he’s not going to be able to muscle them out the way like he can on a back pocket or half back. Let him be a mis-match nightmare for oppo teams in the same way Dusty and Petracca are when they play forward.

 

[p4p1]

I don’t really get the Rayner as a KPF idea, it takes away from what should be one or his biggest strengths playing forward, his ability to physically dominate a smaller defender. He’s not lightning quick so probably can’t take full advantage on a lead against a KPD and he’s not going to be able to muscle them out the way like he can on a back pocket or half back. Let him be a mis-match nightmare for oppo teams in the same way Dusty and Petracca are when they play forward.

The oppo would still put their 2nd key back onto Hipwood rather than Rayner. Rayner would play a more traditional CHF role which requires a strong body and the ability to clamp marks down the line which personally I believe he would do better than Hipwood seems to able to. Dusty's forward dominance heavily relies on Richmond having Lynch and Reiwoldt, IMO that is one of the aspects that makes him really difficult to line up on. Same can be said of Dangerfield. Rayner may be able to play that Dusty, Petracca type role but there doesn't seem to be anyone on our list that can play that traditional kep forward role ala Browny.

 

[p4p1]

Left field idea, because I think our wings have more options with Bailey, Ah Chee, Prior and Ashcroft next year but given that Berry and Gardiner are roughly the same size would we consider giving Berry a Gardiner type defensive role or would his shoulders be a huge issue in that?

I know it's been floated before but if we continue with the Adams, Andrews and Gardiner KPD setup could we look at Payne as the pack crashing KPF and Hippy to take on a more HFF role which he is probably more suited to than a KPF?

 

[LionsOrDieTrion]

Should we try and get Dunkley? Probably won’t solve our lack of speed issue.

 

[M Malice]

Should we try and get Dunkley? Probably won’t solve our lack of speed issue.

It's about time someone mentioned him.

IMO we should go for him.

 

[Sherrinator]

I really like it and he is the one forward on our team I would back to smash packs apart if that was one of his instructions. Hippy doesn't have some of the attributes to be a true key forward IMO but I think his combination and athleticism could see him causing matchup nightmares for oppo if his role was tweaked a bit. We don't need wingers but a role like a wing for hippy could be unstoppable for other teams.

Hipwood being instructed to drag his defender up the wings creates way more open space for Charlie etc too. Hipwood will never be a true key.

 

[Sherrinator]

I don't think anyone is saying to play him directly as a key forward but to use his spot in the category of Hipwood and Daniher, instead of a third big key forward or going out and getting one. Then you have 3 small forwards - combo of Charlie, Linc and Kai and Zac.

The one issue we have, with the exception of Zac and maybe Kai, is that our 3 talls, Charlie and Linc and Cam all fly for big marks, often against each other with none staying to ground like a Kozi Pickett always to our detriment. I guess its also for this reason why I don't see the point in a 30 yo Gunstan.

I think they do it because Joe and the Eel get out marked so often.

 

[briztoon]

Left field idea, because I think our wings have more options with Bailey, Ah Chee, Prior and Ashcroft next year but given that Berry and Gardiner are roughly the same size would we consider giving Berry a Gardiner type defensive role or would his shoulders be a huge issue in that?

I know it's been floated before but if we continue with the Adams, Andrews and Gardiner KPD setup could we look at Payne as the pack crashing KPF and Hippy to take on a more HFF role which he is probably more suited to than a KPF?

A big reason why Gardiner's body is nearly shot, is because the role requires him to put his body on the line, time and time again. The same would happen to berry.

 

[Lazza16]

Starc.

We have to make some more changes this coming year. Insanity doing thr same thing expecting a different result.


Achee. Payne. Andrews.
Wilmont. Adams. Colman.


Oscar. Neale. Starcevich.
Berry. Ashcroft. Mcluggage.

Hipwood. Rayner. Baily.
Mccarthy. Daniher. Cameron.

Extended Bench. Robertson, Lohmann, Prior, Rich, Zorko, Fort, Mathieson

If u always do what u have always done...u always get what u always got.

 

[twhowler]

Hipwood being instructed to drag his defender up the wings creates way more open space for Charlie etc too. Hipwood will never be a true key.

Interesting discussion. McStay going gives us a chance to have a good look at our set-up. Highest scoring team doesn't mean there are not issues. I think we should be tweaking how we play to not bomb as much to the forward line, but also having a good 'get-out' target in the forward line.

Hipwood - as a few have said, get him moving. In his earlier years he was a rangey half forward, and would kick some cracking goals by sprinting back and beating his opponent. It's not that he can't take marks - his hands have been steadily improving this year, it's that he can't WRESTLE. And yet he keeps having to do that. So get him on the move more, high half forward, surging back towards goal. Doesn't stop him taking a nice pack mark and being a threat with his height.

Daniher - Again he is not great at just having a WRESTLE although better than Hipwood as he is much better. I think Joe works well playing relatively deep and getting on the lead. He has decent pace and huge reach, so if it is kicked to his advantage he is very hard to spoil. So a leading full forward, who of course is pretty good at the odd hanger. It's just this needs to be occasional. We get into trouble when we just dump kick it to Joe and he tries to take mark of the year.

McInerney / Henry Smith - We need someone in the forward line who can handle it just being kicked on their head. Oscar is for me the best get-out target we have. He is very hard to shift and hard to outmark. Options could be A) have Oscar as main deep target, and Fort as ruck or B) Henry Smith as main deep forward, Oscar to pinch hit there as resting ruck. Henry Smith has improved a lot this year. Clean hands. 206cm! I think he should be given an opportunity in the offseason to play this role.

Cameron - needs to lead more and wrestle less. His tackling has improved. He should be buzzing around Oscar / Smith for crumbing goals and locking the ball in.

Rayner - mix of midfield and forward. When forward he can be that roaming target at CHF as others have said.

Lohmann - would like to see him come in as a pure pressure forward. For now he needs to limit his flying for marks. Need him at ground level applying pressure. Zorko to play some minutes doing the same thing - focussed on pressure.

McCarthy / Bailey - roles unchanged.

I do think our forward line has the tools to continue to be very dangerous, and we can lose McStay and actually get better overall. Daniher was kicking 3 goals a game pre shoulder. Bailey / Cameron / Hipwood / Rayner / McCarthy are all capable of kicking bags. We just need to make it a bit for finals-proof: it needs to work better when supply is not as good. At the moment it feels all duck or no dinner, and we kick MUCH lower scores when the pressure is on.

 

[davemc_lions]

End of round 23 we are no longer the highest scoring team with 2147, Richmond is now at 2165. Cats are one point behind us 2146
We given away 1799 and only Dogs in the top 11 teams given away more at 1818.
Blues 1714, Saints 1715 and Port 1638 outside the 8 have a better defence.
Freo, Demons and Cats are 1483-1488 so just over 14 points a game less.

We beat Kangas 108, Suns 52, Eagles 75, Crows 36, Dogs 41 and GWS 40.. Helped our scoring
Avg we sit 97 for and 82 against
Against the top 8 even with the Dogs 41 and Swans 24
681 (Avg 85) for 762 (95) against.
So we are a 4 goal worse team against the top 8 teams


Player wise I really think we need to go back to 2 talls and Charlie we where more dangerous then. Fort 2nd ruck and sometimes rests forward like Martin did
Although Joe and Hipwood both not contested marks so again do we player Rayner/Big O there?

 

[scoman]

The more I think about it the more I would like to see Ah Chee in our forward line as a hardworking defensive forward. I feel we could do with a more 'blue collar' player in that area of the ground.

 

[Kevvo]

The more I think about it the more I would like to see Ah Chee in our forward line as a hardworking defensive forward. I feel we could do with a more 'blue collar' player in that area of the ground.

I agree, but I feel like we Ah Chee him to do exactly the same thing on the wing. I think Linc has had an off year but I’m confident he’ll bounce back and can be that guy.

 

[mpal6]

That would be a horrid decision IMO. Our money is better spent elsewhere. He’s too slow, too error prone, and too undisciplined. The number of times he loses touch with an opponent, arrives a second too late, or falls into the back of them… Is he really going to improve? We can’t be carrying blokes like Lyons, Gardiner, Rich, Zorko in the next couple of years who are too good for the seconds but shouldn’t be in our B22.

Linc McCarthy is another interesting one. He’s in pretty much every team but he needs to pull his finger out to stay there. He was tracking towards elite level early in the year and has completely fallen away. I back him to regain his best form but he should not get an easy pass.

Linc has developed some of the bad Mitch Robbo traits this season. Mad dash and one big leap at the ball carrier, doesn't even manage to grab him in anyway but just flies past him and falls to ground. If only he could stick a few more of those tackle attempts or just stay on his feet so he can impact the next contest - he'd go a long way in addressing pressure in our forward line.