Footy Showdown: Devlog [ New Screenshot ]

[game_chromosome]

I actually preferred the direction you were going in, with it being a simulation with a pixel art style. It was quite aesthetically pleasing. I'd just do things Big Ant aren't doing with AFL 23, because they're missing a bunch of things, like a collision system, gang tackling, etc.

Fair point and good to hear thank you. Definitely something to think about. Hopefully I can get a good run at it this year and possibly release something early next year or maybe before who knows

 

[Pickitt]

Fair point and good to hear thank you. Definitely something to think about. Hopefully I can get a good run at it this year and possibly release something early next year or maybe before who knows

Would you consider letting a beta go out to play local multiplayer on?

 

[game_chromosome]

Definitely on the cards. When the game is in a better state I'll do something like that

 

[GoldbergsGold]

Fair point and good to hear thank you. Definitely something to think about. Hopefully I can get a good run at it this year and possibly release something early next year or maybe before who knows

Yeah, I would try and make it a true simulation, because we've had nothing but "arcade" gameplay with AFL games. Would be ironic to have a game with realistic simulation but with a pixel art arcade art style, whereas Big Ant do the reverse. I would just try and implement the things Big Ant aren't doing. It looks clearly like they're going to omit loads of key factors of the sport. Where you could accommodate that easily, since your art direction is simple to introduce things like, gang tackling, ground ball gets, ground wrestling for the ball, collisions, aerial acrobatics, etc.

 

[game_chromosome]

Yeah, I would try and make it a true simulation, because we've had nothing but "arcade" gameplay with AFL games. Would be ironic to have a game with realistic simulation but with a pixel art arcade art style, whereas Big Ant do the reverse. I would just try and implement the things Big Ant aren't doing. It looks clearly like they're going to omit loads of key factors of the sport. Where you could accommodate that easily, since your art direction is simple to introduce things like, gang tackling, ground ball gets, ground wrestling for the ball, collisions, aerial acrobatics, etc.

It's already mostly a simulation so changing its direction would be harder I guess.

Actually, alot of those suggestions are difficult in 2D because every frame must be animated correctly to make sense. With 3D, you can rig a 3D model with animation bones and have it use animation data. And even possibly procedural animation for ragdolling on air collisions or big hits. 2D graphics are simple to produce yes, but quite difficult to work with for complex interactions.

Something as simple as not breaking stride kicking on the run was a massive headache because when the animation would change from running to kick, because the legs aren't in exactly the same position, it looked glitchy but I ended up solving it after removing most of my hairline in the process.

What are the key factors that big ant won't have like gang tackling, centre bounce tactics etc?

 

[GoldbergsGold]

It's already mostly a simulation so changing its direction would be harder I guess.

Actually, alot of those suggestions are difficult in 2D because every frame must be animated correctly to make sense. With 3D, you can rig a 3D model with animation bones and have it use animation data. And even possibly procedural animation for ragdolling on air collisions or big hits. 2D graphics are simple to produce yes, but quite difficult to work with for complex interactions.

Something as simple as not breaking stride kicking on the run was a massive headache because when the animation would change from running to kick, because the legs aren't in exactly the same position, it looked glitchy but I ended up solving it after removing most of my hairline in the process.

What are the key factors that big ant won't have like gang tackling, centre bounce tactics etc?

I mean, just compare it to real football, you can see there's loads of aspects they're not implementing. Player momentum control, aerial flight, ground wrestling, collisions, tripping, fend offs, tunnel hand passing, etc. I guess the point is, if you see something in the real sport, it'd be amazing to be able to replicate it all in a video game.

I don't think Big Ant will be trying to make a true simulation with AFL 23, they're trying to "please everyone" I think, so the gameplay will suffer as a result.

I would just try and make it the most comprehensive experience, even with that 2D pixel art, it can be done. The more comprehensive and realistic it is, more people will gravitate to it.

I saw animations you did that had a lot of weight to it, like the "picking self off the ground" animation. But then a lot of animations that looked robotic, like every kicking animation. Although, the grubber kick animation was great. I think you could change a lot those of the animations to give it more weight. Also, when you have players kick the ball long, you should change the animation to a long winding up kick, rather than that robotic kick. Maybe you could rotoscope some real players with existing match footage on YouTube?

 

[game_chromosome]

I mean, just compare it to real football, you can see there's loads of aspects they're not implementing. Player momentum control, aerial flight, ground wrestling, collisions, tripping, fend offs, tunnel hand passing, etc. I guess the point is, if you see something in the real sport, it'd be amazing to be able to replicate it all in a video game.

I don't think Big Ant will be trying to make a true simulation with AFL 23, they're trying to "please everyone" I think, so the gameplay will suffer as a result.

I would just try and make it the most comprehensive experience, even with that 2D pixel art, it can be done. The more comprehensive and realistic it is, more people will gravitate to it.

I saw animations you did that had a lot of weight to it, like the "picking self off the ground" animation. But then a lot of animations that looked robotic, like every kicking animation. Although, the grubber kick animation was great. I think you could change a lot those of the animations to give it more weight. Also, when you have players kick the ball long, you should change the animation to a long winding up kick, rather than that robotic kick. Maybe you could rotoscope some real players with existing match footage on YouTube?

There's only one kicking animation in the game but a different one with a longer wind up for longer kicks is a great idea.

A collision system based on physics is probably out of my skills ATM but currently in pack marks players can fall over, airel contests have players landing and falling over. There is gang tackling if the opportunity is there but because I have the players zoning most of the time game tackling tends to only happen at ballups or centre bounces.

I have tunnel hand balls, I take it you mean hand balls along the ground? Fend offs would be difficult in 2D but it's definitely something I'll add if I can get it working good and feel good.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

There's only one kicking animation in the game but a different one with a longer wind up for longer kicks is a great idea.

A collision system based on physics is probably out of my skills ATM but currently in pack marks players can fall over, airel contests have players landing and falling over. There is gang tackling if the opportunity is there but because I have the players zoning most of the time game tackling tends to only happen at ballups or centre bounces.

I have tunnel hand balls, I take it you mean hand balls along the ground? Fend offs would be difficult in 2D but it's definitely something I'll add if I can get it working good and feel good.

Did you create the animations from scratch or did you rotoscope? I think rotoscoping could help you considerably with making the animations look weighted, even with that pixel art style. Back in the 80's, the developer for Prince of Persia utilized that technique.




The developer used a very similar art style to yours, but his animations are incredibly weighted.

I think with a collision system, I noticed even Big Ant were implementing it a little bit with the pack marks, the players will wrestle a bit. Maybe start with that. Also, I think if a player runs into another player at full speed, have some sort of response to that, like falling over, or tumbling back. Maybe only have the collisions on, if the player is running and hits another player, if they're at a specific fast speed. Whereas if they're slower and hit each other, just have the players move into a small knock away animation. There's colliding playable objects in old school NES games, especially in fighting games, so I think it's very doable. Mike Tyson's Punch Out certainly has collisions from punching, just replace it with running at another player.

Also, maybe have a button mashing feature, where you can out wrestle and bump an opposition player in order to get into the best position to take a mark.

Yeah, hand passing along the ground is what I was suggesting, that's great you already had that.

Also, with the "laying on the ground" animation, maybe only have that for a second if the player is fresh, but have it a bit longer if the player is fatigue. Same goes for the bump animation.

Also, have a fatigue meter and have players react slower, maybe lower than 50% of depleted energy, and boost their energy from interchange breaks.

I think the goal should be to try and make a true simulation. Like say if you see something done in real AFL, you should be able to replicate it in your game. Very hard task, but I think with that pixel art style, it can be done easier than a 3D "photorealistic" art style, with 1 million polygons, textures, and lighting to deal with. I would love to be able to do a Nick Riewoldt style aerial mark like he did in 2004 in a footy game.

 

[game_chromosome]

Did you create the animations from scratch or did you rotoscope? I think rotoscoping could help you considerably with making the animations look weighted, even with that pixel art style. Back in the 80's, the developer for Prince of Persia utilized that technique.




The developer used a very similar art style to yours, but his animations are incredibly weighted.

I think with a collision system, I noticed even Big Ant were implementing it a little bit with the pack marks, the players will wrestle a bit. Maybe start with that. Also, I think if a player runs into another player at full speed, have some sort of response to that, like falling over, or tumbling back. Maybe only have the collisions on, if the player is running and hits another player, if they're at a specific fast speed. Whereas if they're slower and hit each other, just have the players move into a small knock away animation. There's colliding playable objects in old school NES games, especially in fighting games, so I think it's very doable. Mike Tyson's Punch Out certainly has collisions from punching, just replace it with running at another player.

Also, maybe have a button mashing feature, where you can out wrestle and bump an opposition player in order to get into the best position to take a mark.

Yeah, hand passing along the ground is what I was suggesting, that's great you already had that.

Also, with the "laying on the ground" animation, maybe only have that for a second if the player is fresh, but have it a bit longer if the player is fatigue. Same goes for the bump animation.

Also, have a fatigue meter and have players react slower, maybe lower than 50% of depleted energy, and boost their energy from interchange breaks.

I think the goal should be to try and make a true simulation. Like say if you see something done in real AFL, you should be able to replicate it in your game. Very hard task, but I think with that pixel art style, it can be done easier than a 3D "photorealistic" art style, with 1 million polygons, textures, and lighting to deal with. I would love to be able to do a Nick Riewoldt style aerial mark like he did in 2004 in a footy game.

Some great points and ideally I'd have them all but definitely liking some of your suggestions. It's great to have feedback especially as a solo developer.

The animations are done by an artist I have paid to do them. They are very talented and most animations shouldn't be too hard for them.

What are your thoughts on zoning the field? You've seen the gameplay of footy showdown, I've tweaked it since but how could it improve in your opinion?

I'm also going to add a bit more chaos to the gameplay like ball deflections off of players, soccering and will try to add tapping the ball out of the air in general play

 

[GoldbergsGold]

Some great points and ideally I'd have them all but definitely liking some of your suggestions. It's great to have feedback especially as a solo developer.

The animations are done by an artist I have paid to do them. They are very talented and most animations shouldn't be too hard for them.

What are your thoughts on zoning the field? You've seen the gameplay of footy showdown, I've tweaked it since but how could it improve in your opinion?

I'm also going to add a bit more chaos to the gameplay like ball deflections off of players, soccering and will try to add tapping the ball out of the air in general play

Yeah, if you could ask them to rotoscope exactly like what you see with the 8 bit Prince of Persia, it'd create a realistic and weighted experience even with 8 bit graphics. At the moment, the animations are very robotic and stiff. Maybe find some footage of players kicking, hand passing, running, tackling, etc and have your artist rotoscope to that. Consider it 8 bit "motion capture".

Oh, and you should add a backwards running mechanic, make it slower than regular running, maybe make it only jogging speed, ie when trying to mark the ball. I only see the game with backwards running currently with peeling back on the mark, it should be a mechanic, as well. Not even AFL 23 has that. Say if you're backwards running and you're in the position where the fly ball will land, you get a better chance at marking it, than the player running forward. And if the forward running player runs at sprinting speed straight into a static or running backwards opposition player, it should create a pushing or knocking down animation, and give a free kick to the static or running backwards player.

Maybe just have the ability to push and shove at marking contests.

I was watching a match, yesterday, where a team just out numbered another, because they put more pressure on and they were playing with better skill. It mentally got into the oppositions head, so the oppositions work rate dropped, they were getting out numbered, and they were bombing it to the opposition, instead of passing it more thoughtfully. I think that should contribute to how you can out number another teams. And say if you have a quarter time break, then the team who has been losing can have their work rate improved, so they can start at least manning up or even outnumbering the winning team.

Basically, try and create a momentum system. Have a pressure gauge hud. Say if Team 1 is monopolizing the ball, hitting targets, etc, their pressure gauge should go up, thus they become the team who starts outnumbering Team 2. Maybe even have notes pop up, similar to what you see on TV with "the pressure gauge". Say if you're playing with a losing side, have a tip come up, "You're being outnumbered, try and control the football by chipping around and marking to lower pressure."

I definitely would like to see some "switching" and maybe use of backwards kicking, in order to break down walls, like real footy.

You should try and include flooding the forward line as a tactic, I see it a lot. That way, you have to be more smarter about forward entries, rather than just kicking it in, and it being a 50/50 chance you mark it, which is unrealistic like all other footy games. Maybe have tips pop up, "The opposition have flooded your forward line, your chances of marking the ball inside 50 and having any kicking space is incredibly low."

And with your radar, I think you should change the colour of the dark blue circle to a light blue circle, cyan or aqua, perhaps, so it's more readable. Maybe do the same for red, change it to a light red colour, but not close to yellow, so it doesn't clash with the football circle icon.

If you could upload some new footage, it'd be great, because the last gameplay footage is from 18 months ago.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

Any updates on your game?

 

[game_chromosome]

Nothing yet. I might post some updated gameplay soon. I've been getting a number of messages on Facebook since AFL23s failed launch. Seems there's some interest in it out there still

 

[GoldbergsGold]

Nothing yet. I might post some updated gameplay soon. I've been getting a number of messages on Facebook since AFL23s failed launch. Seems there's some interest in it out there still

Yeah, I'm really interested in your take on AFL 23. I'm sure you're gonna be taking a 180 approach with your footy game compared to Big Ant's.

 

[game_chromosome]

Yeah, I'm really interested in your take on AFL 23. I'm sure you're gonna be taking a 180 approach with your footy game compared to Big Ant's.

I'm an even smaller team, one person, thank BigAnt so I hope peoples expectations are tempered.

Unfortunate for AFL23 to land so broken had high hopes for it. I really think there was no in depth testing on it. It's the only explanation. Simple things not working are just inexcusable from such an experienced dev team. Hopefully they can get it to where it needs to be.

Definitely has me thinking about my game and how to go about it with transparency on its state and what will be in it.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

I'm an even smaller team, one person, thank BigAnt so I hope peoples expectations are tempered.

Unfortunate for AFL23 to land so broken had high hopes for it. I really think there was no in depth testing on it. It's the only explanation. Simple things not working are just inexcusable from such an experienced dev team. Hopefully they can get it to where it needs to be.

Definitely has me thinking about my game and how to go about it with transparency on its state and what will be in it.

Yeah, be as transparent as you can, people will appreciate you, and show you a lot of respect and interest. I see it on your Facebook people aren't crucifying you like they do with Big Ant or Wicked Witch, because you're being honest and open about your game. Big Ant were being super cryptic the entire time during their development, which lost them a lot of respect and trust from people, especially when they released it completely broken.

I also think you have the advantage, you're not trying to do super complex 100,000 tri player models, it's just simple pixel art, which you can even make look realistic with rotoscoping. I saw someone say that one of the PS3 era Prince of Persia games had unrealistic physics and motion compared to the original 8bit Prince of Persia with rotoscoping, which was developed by one guy, too.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

Btw, would it be possible to implement a spin evasion mechanic? Just something to evade 1 player coming at you would make the game so much better. So many times in Live 1 I wanted to spin evade 1 opposition player, but couldn't do it.

 

[game_chromosome]

Yeah, be as transparent as you can, people will appreciate you, and show you a lot of respect and interest. I see it on your Facebook people aren't crucifying you like they do with Big Ant or Wicked Witch, because you're being honest and open about your game. Big Ant were being super cryptic the entire time during their development, which lost them a lot of respect and trust from people, especially when they released it completely broken.

I also think you have the advantage, you're not trying to do super complex 100,000 tri player models, it's just simple pixel art, which you can even make look realistic with rotoscoping. I saw someone say that one of the PS3 era Prince of Persia games had unrealistic physics and motion compared to the original 8bit Prince of Persia with rotoscoping, which was developed by one guy, too.

I have been paying an artist for the animations and pixel art as it is so time consuming to do. I'm not sure he will want to rotoscope plus having the animations redone will cost cash I don't have.

I can muck around with a spin mechanic to see if it's workable to a decent enough extent. Something like that can break the gameplay if it's not designed to be part of it from the start. That's also an extra 8 animations too so we'll see if it's possible.

Just need to focus on getting it relaseable in a stable condition.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

I have been paying an artist for the animations and pixel art as it is so time consuming to do. I'm not sure he will want to rotoscope plus having the animations redone will cost cash I don't have.

I can muck around with a spin mechanic to see if it's workable to a decent enough extent. Something like that can break the gameplay if it's not designed to be part of it from the start. That's also an extra 8 animations too so we'll see if it's possible.

Just need to focus on getting it relaseable in a stable condition.

What software does the animator use? I was mucking around in Photoshop, trying to rotoscope a side shot of real AFL player movements with that pixel art style just out of curiosity within the timeline. Also, the animation you showed where the player picks himself off the ground looked to me as rotoscoped, that was the sort of animation I was thinking could have been the standard.

 

[game_chromosome]

What software does the animator use? I was mucking around in Photoshop, trying to rotoscope a side shot of real AFL player movements with that pixel art style just out of curiosity within the timeline. Also, the animation you showed where the player picks himself off the ground looked to me as rotoscoped, that was the sort of animation I was thinking could have been the standard.

I am unsure what the animator uses. I would assume photoshop or aseprite. It's all do able, just time consuming.

 

[GoldbergsGold]

I have been paying an artist for the animations and pixel art as it is so time consuming to do. I'm not sure he will want to rotoscope plus having the animations redone will cost cash I don't have.

I can muck around with a spin mechanic to see if it's workable to a decent enough extent. Something like that can break the gameplay if it's not designed to be part of it from the start. That's also an extra 8 animations too so we'll see if it's possible.

Just need to focus on getting it relaseable in a stable condition.

What type of aspects of the sport and mechanics that aren't in any other footy video games (because there's loads of them) were you planning on or trying to implement into the game? I saw your clearance mechanic, that was something not even in AFL 23, but in American Football games.

 

[game_chromosome]

What type of aspects of the sport and mechanics that aren't in any other footy video games (because there's loads of them) were you planning on or trying to implement into the game? I saw your clearance mechanic, that was something not even in AFL 23, but in American Football games.

Clearance mechanic? Do you mean the centre bounce 'routes'? Yeah that's in there. Grubber kicks with the right joystick, NBA2K style on the run goal kicking where you charge up the meter and release at the right time, release too late and miss. Also, I am planning on having different field zoning configurations, think FIFA style formations 4321 etc. (Hopefully the different formations when played against each other won't break the game but testing will work that out)

What aspects / mechanics would you like to see?

 

[GoldbergsGold]

Clearance mechanic? Do you mean the centre bounce 'routes'? Yeah that's in there. Grubber kicks with the right joystick, NBA2K style on the run goal kicking where you charge up the meter and release at the right time, release too late and miss. Also, I am planning on having different field zoning configurations, think FIFA style formations 4321 etc. (Hopefully the different formations when played against each other won't break the game but testing will work that out)

What aspects / mechanics would you like to see?

Right, that's what I meant the centre bounce routes. I would like to see some advanced contested play mechanics, but that maybe difficult to implement. Try and implement an "All out defence to balanced to all out attack" mechanic like in eFootball, also a "pressure gauge" you could try and implement if you have a momentum mechanic like Live 1. Also, maybe make player positions customizable like Madden 12 for the PS2.

Have you seen this guy's videos, btw? He explains different gamestyle tactics.

 

[game_chromosome]

Right, that's what I meant the centre bounce routes. I would like to see some advanced contested play mechanics, but that maybe difficult to implement. Try and implement an "All out defence to balanced to all out attack" mechanic like in eFootball, also a "pressure gauge" you could try and implement if you have a momentum mechanic like Live 1. Also, maybe make player positions customizable like Madden 12 for the PS2.

Have you seen this guy's videos, btw? He explains different gamestyle tactics.

Yeah tactics are definitely something I want to add as it will give the gameplay more depth. Not sure on the customisable positions but if it's doable with my code I will try and add it in.

I will check out the video looks good

 

[game_chromosome]

Right, that's what I meant the centre bounce routes. I would like to see some advanced contested play mechanics, but that maybe difficult to implement. Try and implement an "All out defence to balanced to all out attack" mechanic like in eFootball, also a "pressure gauge" you could try and implement if you have a momentum mechanic like Live 1. Also, maybe make player positions customizable like Madden 12 for the PS2.

Have you seen this guy's videos, btw? He explains different gamestyle tactics.

Cool vid and well explained. Will definitely try options like that.

I also realised my game has something AFL 23 doesn't, and that is at centre bounces, when the ball is bounced up, it goes an a random direction inside the centre circle like in real life where AFL 23 seems to be straight directly up on the spot every time

 

[GoldbergsGold]

Cool vid and well explained. Will definitely try options like that.

I also realised my game has something AFL 23 doesn't, and that is at centre bounces, when the ball is bounced up, it goes an a random direction inside the centre circle like in real life where AFL 23 seems to be straight directly up on the spot every time

I know, similar to AFL 98-99 with yours. Whereas they stayed with the unrealistic symmetrical bounce.

Also, do you think coding player manoeuvres/movements is easier if there's examples of it within other 8 bit games?

Btw, he has more videos like that you should check out, too. In one he talks about flooding.