Forward Line

[coke_zero]

why will Griffiths not play next year when he is training? Just asking thats all?

he will be a first year player so will be unconsistent. and with not much forward line depth he will get a good defender.

 

[Haggard H]

Riewoldt Post Morton
Nahas Griffiths Ruck/mid

Who fills the ruck/mid pocket depends on opposition defences, and whether an extra tall or a quick small will do the most damage. With a few other options available all of a sudden I think what has been a glaring weakness for the past few years, the forward line will now be a real strength in 2 or 3 years time.

 

[Tomnat Tigers]

I think we could chuck in roberts on the forward flank.

 

[one eyedtiger]

Just 2 questions, why is Cotchin better in the forward line than the centre and why will Griffiths not play next year when he is training? Just asking thats all?

No dobut Cotchin is better in the centre, but coming off all his injuries I doubt he'll play all of his gametime in the middle; For next year anyway at least. He will be rotated through the forward line and midfield.

And as for Griffiths, last I heard he a shoulder reconstruction or something similiar. So if thats true my guess is he won't play much next.

 

[coke_zero]

I think we could chuck in roberts on the forward flank.

i dont know much about him but he would not get a game in round one. maybe towards the end. he has to compete with Nahas, Morton Hislop and other resting mids.

 

[Morro]

He shouldn't be a half back IMO for the following reasons

1. Not a good decision maker down back/in the midfield, tries to take too many people on and fails.
2. Not accountable enough.
3. Below average overhead, even for his height.
4. Physically weak...we would struggle to find a forward weak enough for him to match up on.
5. Not a great field kick, very little distance in his kicking.
6. Doesn't have a huge tank.

Compare that to the reasons that I believe he can be a usefull forward pocket

1. Technically a fantastic tackler (although still not strong enough).
2. Has a good eye for the goals (good snap/running shot, reasonable set shot).
3. Agile and able to get around players. Down back his attempts to take opponents on can result in direct goals against us. Up forward, if Edwards takes 1 too many people on and fails at least the ball is in our half!
4. Good pace off the first few steps.

If Edwards is going to make it, and I think he will, he will make it as a defensive forward. Add 5-10kgs to his frame, put him on the oppositions designated kicker and he will get 20 goals a year from holding the ball free kicks alone. Nahas is even smaller (5cm and 10kg smaller to be precise) and yet he managed to achieve this last year. We are going to need at least 2 small crumbers if, long term, we are going to have a very tall forwardline of Vickery, Post, Griffin and Astbury (all over 194cm) and a direct style of play (as indicated by hardwick).

Yeah fair enough mate, although the PSD seems like it was used on a few smalls though, obviously after you posted this.

i have to disagree on his overhead marking though. he is actually very good and has an excellent vertical leap for his size IMO

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

Yeah fair enough mate, although the PSD seems like it was used on a few smalls though, obviously after you posted this.

i have to disagree on his overhead marking though. he is actually very good and has an excellent vertical leap for his size IMO

Sure, he can take an uncontested mark. But get him in a contested situation...try as he might he cannot compete. He has no strength in the legs or hips and regularly gets outmarked in a 1 on 1 situation. Maybe his good leap and reasonably reliable hands will come in handy some day...when he puts on another 5-10kgs. Until then, keep him away from defense because small solidly built forwards will slaughter him. Therefore I still maintain he should be playing in the forward pocket.

PS all the small guys taken in the draft can also play in the midfield. Also, none of them are particularly known for their tackling. This is Edwards main strength, and probably the only reason I see a future for him.

 

[Spluff]

Edwards is actually very good overhead, and has one of the best tanks at the club (he was top at his draft camp in both the endurance (either the beep or the time trial, can't remember which) and the vertical leap). I'd say he has developed into a good decision maker down back, he gets caught far less than Tambling when trying to run out of the back half. He's also a smart player - but he's not good at reading the ball off hands, which makes him a poor crumber.

 

[WA Tiger]

he will be a first year player so will be unconsistent. and with not much forward line depth he will get a good defender.

He is still our second round draft pick and he should play for at least 3 parts of the season. I remember just about every man and his dog whinging because last year we traded pick 19 for McMahon and the Bulldogs picked up Ward. But he played 90% of the year. Griffiths is in full training from all reports and should have some sort of an impact next year IMO.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

Edwards is actually very good overhead, and has one of the best tanks at the club (he was top at his draft camp in both the endurance (either the beep or the time trial, can't remember which) and the vertical leap). I'd say he has developed into a good decision maker down back, he gets caught far less than Tambling when trying to run out of the back half. He's also a smart player - but he's not good at reading the ball off hands, which makes him a poor crumber.

From what I've seen his decision making when playing behind the ball is poor. Whilst he isn't the best crumber, he is a good lead. And the crucial thing is his tackling ability. Its much more effective putting your best tackler on the oppositions' backline designated kicker than putting them in defence. If he was in defence, the opposition would try and find a way to get a big bodied medium/small forward on him to punish him body on body. Whats the use in him being able to tackle if he gets 5 or 6 goals kicked on him directly from marking contests anyway.

The endurance thing is interesting. He does have good credentials as you mentioned, but numerous times he has run out of gas because he doesn't know when to run and when to jog. He spends large chunks of games on the bench catching his breath because he doesn't realise that you don't need to be running 24/7 to have an impact. Look at the best players right now: Ablett and Judd. They both spend a large chunk of the game jogging and even walking rather than running, and choose when to hit full pace to great effect. Many people have got on the Edwards bandwagon, partly because he looks like he is always giving 100%. Unfortunately, he often gives 100% when he should be going @ 50%, and then when the time comes for him to hit full pace he gets run down because he is simply knackered.

Edwards could play down back or in the midfield if he put on 5-10kgs and worked on his timing. Needs to learn when and where to run, hopefully hardwick's simplified gameplan will give him a realistic shot at improving those areas. Otherwise its forward pocket or nothing in my opinion.

 

[coke_zero]

He is still our second round draft pick and he should play for at least 3 parts of the season. I remember just about every man and his dog whinging because last year we traded pick 19 for McMahon and the Bulldogs picked up Ward. But he played 90% of the year. Griffiths is in full training from all reports and should have some sort of an impact next year IMO.

one is a midfielder and one is a KPF. i hope he gets some game time to. but we are not just going to chuck him into games because we drafted him at 19.

 

[Kapital city TIGER]

We are still lacking genuinely dangerous or power forwards without Richo.
But weve had ~2yrs to get used to that!

Polak or Tuck have played and could offer additional tall targets, - I would love for Gourdis to come up and get a run to see if he can step up in 2010.

Without a dominant forward, but with an increasingly good midfield, I reckon we can often play 4 talls: Reiwaldt , Post, Vikery locked in, Tuck(/Polly/Gourdis/new tall) when we can use another tall, to go with a resting mid/Morton and a crumbing fp (Nahas, Gilligan, Edwards, Hislop, Conners, Roberts).

Hopefully Lids, Cotchin & Foley (Jackson/Martin/Collins )will be able to hit up the tall timber time and time again, so we can see how their kicking is from the old set shot!

If we do see new tall recruits next year great, but im thinking theyve got to show something in the Burgers first

 

[Morro]

Sure, he can take an uncontested mark. But get him in a contested situation...try as he might he cannot compete. He has no strength in the legs or hips and regularly gets outmarked in a 1 on 1 situation. Maybe his good leap and reasonably reliable hands will come in handy some day...when he puts on another 5-10kgs. Until then, keep him away from defense because small solidly built forwards will slaughter him. Therefore I still maintain he should be playing in the forward pocket.

PS all the small guys taken in the draft can also play in the midfield. Also, none of them are particularly known for their tackling. This is Edwards main strength, and probably the only reason I see a future for him.

I guess thats the real strength of your argument right there mate. He is actually very good over head as I said, but you are right, contested situations is where he will be found out, body on body he is in trouble. I cant remember seeing him in this situation too often to comment with any real insight as opposed to speculation.

 

[Kapital city TIGER]

I guess thats the real strength of your argument right there mate. He is actually very good over head as I said, but you are right, contested situations is where he will be found out, body on body he is in trouble. I cant remember seeing him in this situation too often to comment with any real insight as opposed to speculation.

I do remember seeing Shane take a tough grab in front of a pack that he crashed into the front of and took the grab easily (I dont think anyone saw him coming or expected him to be crumbing) was pretty special, and as it was this year, likelly the highlight of an otherwise awful day.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

I do remember seeing Shane take a tough grab in front of a pack that he crashed into the front of and took the grab easily (I dont think anyone saw him coming or expected him to be crumbing) was pretty special, and as it was this year, likelly the highlight of an otherwise awful day.

I don't remember that mark, but in any case that shows he is courageous...not a good contested mark, and I don't dispute that. But what happens when a high ball comes in, and he is body on body in the back pocket with chapman/johnson, porplyzia, brad johnson etc? Most of those guys have legs bigger than Edwards' torso!

As far as I'm concerned, a loose man, rebounding defender either needs to be tall enough to drop into the hole as a 3rd or 4th tall defender...in a similar role to what Polak did for us a few years back and like one of Fisher/Goddard/Gilbert does for the saints now...or they need to have sublime skills and pace. Edwards does not satisfy either of these requirements, except perhaps the pace element. Therefore if he was going to play as a rebounding defender it would have to be as one who has a direct opponent. He cannot compete with strong marking small forwards for the reasons I've outlined above. Until he is physically big enough to play that role, he should be in the forwardline.

Personally, I think that if Edwards is our best option as either a small defender who runs off, or as loose man in defence for us, we are in dire straights. I can think of 10-15 guys at our club who would be better suited to either of these positions.

 

[Spluff]

I do remember seeing Shane take a tough grab in front of a pack that he crashed into the front of and took the grab easily (I dont think anyone saw him coming or expected him to be crumbing) was pretty special, and as it was this year, likelly the highlight of an otherwise awful day.

He did that a couple of times towards the end of the year as his confidence continued to grow, dropping back into packs as the third man up.

 

[WA Tiger]

one is a midfielder and one is a KPF. i hope he gets some game time to. but we are not just going to chuck him into games because we drafted him at 19.

Yeah I know we are not just going to chuck him into games because he is pick 19, but look at the size of the guy and how he plays. He is AFL ready just read the below comments from the RFC profile of him:

"Ben has the speed and size to play as genuine power forward at AFL level. He has the acceleration to break free from opponents as a leading forward but also the size and strength to mark the ball one out in a contested situation. Ben also has great power and depth in his kicking and showed great composure in 2009 to kick long clutch goals"

Says to me that if he is uninjured and fit he should be there round 1!!

 

[Madtiger2006]

He shouldn't be a half back IMO for the following reasons

1. Not a good decision maker down back/in the midfield, tries to take too many people on and fails.
2. Not accountable enough.
3. Below average overhead, even for his height.
4. Physically weak...we would struggle to find a forward weak enough for him to match up on.
5. Not a great field kick, very little distance in his kicking.
6. Doesn't have a huge tank.

I found it the exact opposite in his last 8 Rounds of 2009. With confidence he proved he can be a very handy small defender

 

[freezer]

Forward line 2010

Connors - Riewoldt - (Cotchin/Martin)
Morton - (Vickery/Graham/Post) - (Nahas/Hicks/Roberts)

Riewoldt, Morton, Connors to be the only permanent fwds.

Don't think Martin and Cotchin will spend all their time in the midfield rotation next year, and with their kicking skills and ball winning ability, both could be very damaging on a fwd flank.

Vickery and Graham will spend time as tall targets rotating out of the ruck, with Post to spend some time down there also.

Nahas, Hicks and Roberts will compete for the crumbing postion.

Future 2012/13

(Connors/Taylor) - (Post or Vickery) - Reiwoldt
Morton - Griffiths - (Nahas/Hicks/Roberts)

Changes to 2010 team will be Taylor if he can put on some size and fullfill potential to compete with Connors on a flank.

We'll know where Post and Vickery best positions are by then and I think one will show the ability to hold down the critical CHF position.

The beast to full forward, should be 200cm and over 105kg by then, and will be an awesome tall target at FF.

Morton and Riewoldt as 3rd and 4th marking options

Nahas, Hicks, Roberts still competing for the crumbing spot.

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

I found it the exact opposite in his last 8 Rounds of 2009. With confidence he proved he can be a very handy small defender

Give me mid '07-mid '08 edwards: 12 disposals of good quality, 1 or 2 goals, 3 tackles. Most importantly, his size was not exposed as much as it is down back. Playing predominantly down back in '09, he averaged about 2 marks. Compare that to that '07-'08 run he had, where he was averaging around 5. What does that tell you about his ability to mark the ball in defence? Down back he is not tackling, he is not marking, he is not getting alot of disposals (especially kicks)...i would be interested in some defensive stats ie who his direct opponent was and how they played in the back end of '09. For him to have as little impact as he has, he would have to have completely shut out his opponent in each game (or contribute a SHITLOAD of 1%ers). I might be wrong but I remember small forwards having multiple field days against us, particularly in the last 4.

west coast: le cras kicks 5, mckinley kicks 2 and several other small forwards kicked singles
hawks: osborne, mcglynn and rioli kicking 3, 2, 2 respectively
pies: davis, dick, didak and medhurst all played well (9 goals between them)
swans: 11/18 goals kicked by small forwards/resting mids.

As Edwards was one of the small backs in each of these games, how many goals did he personally conceed? Going from the fact that a significant proportion of the goals scored against us in those games were from the oppositions small forwards or resting mids, you'd say he probably had at least 1 or 2 goals a game kicked against him, and probably a fair few inside 50s/goal assists, going on the possessions the small forwards racked up against us (many 20-25 disposal winners). Not good enough for a guy who gets about 5 kicks a game.

 

[Madtiger2006]

Give me mid '07-mid '08 edwards: 12 disposals of good quality, 1 or 2 goals, 3 tackles. Most importantly, his size was not exposed as much as it is down back. Playing predominantly down back in '09, he averaged about 2 marks. Compare that to that '07-'08 run he had, where he was averaging around 5. What does that tell you about his ability to mark the ball in defence? Down back he is not tackling, he is not marking, he is not getting alot of disposals (especially kicks)...i would be interested in some defensive stats ie who his direct opponent was and how they played in the back end of '09. For him to have as little impact as he has, he would have to have completely shut out his opponent in each game (or contribute a SHITLOAD of 1%ers). I might be wrong but I remember small forwards having multiple field days against us, particularly in the last 4.

west coast: le cras kicks 5, mckinley kicks 2 and several other small forwards kicked singles
hawks: osborne, mcglynn and rioli kicking 3, 2, 2 respectively
pies: davis, dick, didak and medhurst all played well (9 goals between them)
swans: 11/18 goals kicked by small forwards/resting mids.

As Edwards was one of the small backs in each of these games, how many goals did he personally conceed? Going from the fact that a significant proportion of the goals scored against us in those games were from the oppositions small forwards or resting mids, you'd say he probably had at least 1 or 2 goals a game kicked against him, and probably a fair few inside 50s/goal assists, going on the possessions the small forwards racked up against us (many 20-25 disposal winners). Not good enough for a guy who gets about 5 kicks a game.

Edwards played about 2 quality games in his career prior to about Round 14 of 2009. Since the kangaroo game(I think) he has played pretty much his best 5 games of his career. He took several big marks in defence over that 8 week period, he pretty much didn't get caught or turn the ball over. He played with confidence and took players on regularly getting out of traffic with composure and setting up play from defence. He took a step up in confidence and been a much better player since that Kangaroos game. If he maintains it, he should be a permanant small defender. Maybe he had less marks in defence because he wasn't a kicking target

 

[tony_montana]

simply put needs meat on his bones, 7-10kgs and he'll be a player

 

[Rancid_Beasties]

Edwards played about 2 quality games in his career prior to about Round 14 of 2009. Since the kangaroo game(I think) he has played pretty much his best 5 games of his career. He took several big marks in defence over that 8 week period, he pretty much didn't get caught or turn the ball over. He played with confidence and took players on regularly getting out of traffic with composure and setting up play from defence. He took a step up in confidence and been a much better player since that Kangaroos game. If he maintains it, he should be a permanant small defender. Maybe he had less marks in defence because he wasn't a kicking target

Obviously , but thats kind of my point. 2 marks per game... with the possession retention style of play we were utilising...its pretty damn low! Tambling was #1 at out club for marks with an average of almost 7 per game whilst playing in the exact same position! This tells me 3 things: the other defenders are not confident with using edwards as a linkman, edwards is not making good position to be a linkman, and edwards is not taking enough marks defensively. 1 or 2 courageous crashes back into packs may look promising, but the reality is that he has very little impact. If both of those 2 marks he averages per game were such contested "crashes back into packs", that would be respectable in terms of that area, but what about the 2 or 3 uncontested, link man marks he should be taking.

I think hes the type of flashy player whose highlight real (crashing back into packs, breaking lines etc) is alot more impressive than the reality. He simply does not have an impact down back and in many occasions costs us goals directly. Hopefully in 2-3 years time one of webberley, contin, dea or even o'reilly will own a small/medium defender spot, every one of them has, at a very early stage, more going for them in that position than edwards.

 

[coke_zero]

simply put needs meat on his bones, 7-10kgs and he'll be a player

some how i dont think he will be able to add 7-10kgs. but 3-4kgs over this pre season should be what he is aiming for.

 

[JDC!]

i dont know much about him but he would not get a game in round one. maybe towards the end. he has to compete with Nahas, Morton Hislop and other resting mids.

Assuming his fitness is up to scratch, I wouldn't be shocked if he played round one.