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Freeman Controversy.
- Thread starter JUBJUB
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- Staff
- #27
Ok u want hard evidence
Huh
When was the last time an aboriginal player was so ridiculed for being an aboriginal, that he was forced to to make a racial statement on the football field
And im not sure but think that Farmer,was treated in sort of the same way.(not sure on that one)
Then their is the Monkurst incident
Sure it goes on in other teams but no way near the extent as in collingwood.
Plus the topic here is wether Pie Girl is racist,up untill now she has stated why she doesn't like Cathy Freeman
She just doesn't like her
Huh
When was the last time an aboriginal player was so ridiculed for being an aboriginal, that he was forced to to make a racial statement on the football field
And im not sure but think that Farmer,was treated in sort of the same way.(not sure on that one)
Then their is the Monkurst incident
Sure it goes on in other teams but no way near the extent as in collingwood.
Plus the topic here is wether Pie Girl is racist,up untill now she has stated why she doesn't like Cathy Freeman
She just doesn't like her
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Hey Sandie.
I'm scared of a lot of things in this world. I'm scared of spiders, snakes, economic insecurity, war, loneliness, responsibility, nightmares, Liberal governments ... the list goes on.
But one thing I'm not scared of is the opinions of Non-Collingwood supporters. Especially ones who present such a flimsy excuse for "hard evidence" as your friend, Sabre, has presented.
I quote:
"Historically Collingwood has had the biggest problems of all the clubs when it comes to race relations."
That statement would be laughed out of court. What is it based on? Media reports, maybe?
If so, your logic is way off.
There have been, to my knowledge, two very highly publicised racist incidents involving Collingwood. The infamous Winmar incident of 1993 and the Monkhorst-Long racial vilification case of 1995. Both of these incidents received saturation media coverage.
But media coverage is very selective. And Collingwood is the sort of Club that always gets a lot of media attention. It stands to reason that any Club that gets put under as much public scrutiny as Collingwood will have any scandal in which it is involved magnified in the public consciousness.
You can't judge reality simply on the selective lies and half-truths that you read in the papers, Sabre.
Now, as for Pie Girl, I can't speak on her behalf. But regardless of what she may or may not believe, she is only ONE Collingwood supporter. And so am I.
And Sandie, just because people don't reply to your criticisms instantly doesn't mean that they are scared. I always reply to any criticisms levelled at me on Bulletin Boards. I just don't spend every minute of every day on-line like you seem to do.
And contrary to what you might believe, Sandie, the world does not revolve around you, so don't be surprised if I take a day or two to get back to you when you slag me off.
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**floreat pica**
I'm scared of a lot of things in this world. I'm scared of spiders, snakes, economic insecurity, war, loneliness, responsibility, nightmares, Liberal governments ... the list goes on.
But one thing I'm not scared of is the opinions of Non-Collingwood supporters. Especially ones who present such a flimsy excuse for "hard evidence" as your friend, Sabre, has presented.
I quote:
"Historically Collingwood has had the biggest problems of all the clubs when it comes to race relations."
That statement would be laughed out of court. What is it based on? Media reports, maybe?
If so, your logic is way off.
There have been, to my knowledge, two very highly publicised racist incidents involving Collingwood. The infamous Winmar incident of 1993 and the Monkhorst-Long racial vilification case of 1995. Both of these incidents received saturation media coverage.
But media coverage is very selective. And Collingwood is the sort of Club that always gets a lot of media attention. It stands to reason that any Club that gets put under as much public scrutiny as Collingwood will have any scandal in which it is involved magnified in the public consciousness.
You can't judge reality simply on the selective lies and half-truths that you read in the papers, Sabre.
Now, as for Pie Girl, I can't speak on her behalf. But regardless of what she may or may not believe, she is only ONE Collingwood supporter. And so am I.
And Sandie, just because people don't reply to your criticisms instantly doesn't mean that they are scared. I always reply to any criticisms levelled at me on Bulletin Boards. I just don't spend every minute of every day on-line like you seem to do.
And contrary to what you might believe, Sandie, the world does not revolve around you, so don't be surprised if I take a day or two to get back to you when you slag me off.
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**floreat pica**
BJ
Senior List
Cathy is cool.
You cant just hate someone you dont know. How can you?...How does that work? You see her running on tv and you just go "Oh I hate her she is ugly" ???
Gee that is so mature of you! Hating someone because they are ugly....you must be a real nice sort.
By the way i dont think Freeman is ugly I think she is gorgeous....but thats besides the point because THAT GIRL CAN RUN!!!!!!! she won a gold for our country, tough luck for those her 'hate' her because thats one less Gold you can enjoy....
Susie
You cant just hate someone you dont know. How can you?...How does that work? You see her running on tv and you just go "Oh I hate her she is ugly" ???
Gee that is so mature of you! Hating someone because they are ugly....you must be a real nice sort.
By the way i dont think Freeman is ugly I think she is gorgeous....but thats besides the point because THAT GIRL CAN RUN!!!!!!! she won a gold for our country, tough luck for those her 'hate' her because thats one less Gold you can enjoy....
Susie
Bloodstained Angel
Premiership Player
I'd like everybody to think long and hard and try and nominate another Australian athlete that has had as much grace, charm and good humour under such enormous pressue as Freeman has had to endure over the last few months.
It just goes to show she is a class act - in all respects of the word.
It just goes to show she is a class act - in all respects of the word.
- Staff
- #34
Of course its from the media,dont give me this crap about the media attacking your club and making up stories.
Name one other club that in the last 20 years has had so many indicents when it comes to race relations:that is where i got that from
Now I dont have time to make a legally binding case to convict some collingwood supporters.
Conspiracy theory huh
Ok so your so big on leagal issues,then if these have been blown way out of proportion and many are lies why hasn't collingwood sued some of theses papers when it wouold be well within their right to do so
H
Hawkforce
Guest
While it is alarming how often Collingwood fans are being mentioned at the moment, I have to spring to their defence.
Sandie and Sabre-ac, Your generalisations over the last few posts are as worrying as those of the "One Nation" Party.
Sandie and Sabre-ac, Your generalisations over the last few posts are as worrying as those of the "One Nation" Party.
H
Hawkforce
Guest
Prejudice comes in many forms.
None of them good.
None of them good.
I
Indian in the cupborad
Guest
Sabre & Sandie,
You guys are saying that the only reason Pie Girl could not like Cathy Freeman is because she is an aboriginal -
"Comon you need a reason, unless you can give us one their is only one reason. You dont like her because of the color of her skin"
Doesn't this show that you view the colour of a persons skin as a reason to hate someone? Pie girl never mentioned Cathy's aboriginal heritage once in any of her posts. By insinuating that colour must be the reason, it proves to me that you guys are the ones with the racist attitudes that need sorted out. Think about it.
And by the way, if you believe that what you read in the media is conclusive evidence you're even dumber than I imagined. Hey and I'm not a Collingwood supporter, in fact they are my most disliked team.
You guys are saying that the only reason Pie Girl could not like Cathy Freeman is because she is an aboriginal -
"Comon you need a reason, unless you can give us one their is only one reason. You dont like her because of the color of her skin"
Doesn't this show that you view the colour of a persons skin as a reason to hate someone? Pie girl never mentioned Cathy's aboriginal heritage once in any of her posts. By insinuating that colour must be the reason, it proves to me that you guys are the ones with the racist attitudes that need sorted out. Think about it.
And by the way, if you believe that what you read in the media is conclusive evidence you're even dumber than I imagined. Hey and I'm not a Collingwood supporter, in fact they are my most disliked team.
*miss_magpie*
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HAWKFORCE...... you're a gun son
and this thing with cathy freeman, i dunno why some ppl bag her she's a total star and it has nothing to do with her race-well her running race but not her culture if that makes sense without sounding too weird
tarkyn rocks
go pies!
and this thing with cathy freeman, i dunno why some ppl bag her she's a total star and it has nothing to do with her race-well her running race but not her culture if that makes sense without sounding too weird
tarkyn rocks
go pies!
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My thanks to Hawkforce and Indian in the Cupboard for their support on this matter.
Sabre,
I'll make one last attempt to get my point across.
I'm actually not really all that "big on leagal (sic) issues". I'm just a bit concerned at the lynch-mob mentality of what you're saying. It's dangerous stuff to convict people on hearsay, gossip or media "evidence".
I think Indian in the Cupboard has understood my point. You can't use the media as conclusive evidence.
I'm not trying to claim that the Winmar incident in 1993 and the Monkhorst-Long incident in 1995 didn't happen. It's all the other incidents that HAVEN'T been reported that put DOUBT on your theory that Collingwood supporters are the most racist.
I'm not necessarily saying that it's a "media conspiracy" either. It's just selective reporting. And that is a fact of life. And always will be.
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**floreat pica**
Sabre,
I'll make one last attempt to get my point across.
I'm actually not really all that "big on leagal (sic) issues". I'm just a bit concerned at the lynch-mob mentality of what you're saying. It's dangerous stuff to convict people on hearsay, gossip or media "evidence".
I think Indian in the Cupboard has understood my point. You can't use the media as conclusive evidence.
I'm not trying to claim that the Winmar incident in 1993 and the Monkhorst-Long incident in 1995 didn't happen. It's all the other incidents that HAVEN'T been reported that put DOUBT on your theory that Collingwood supporters are the most racist.
I'm not necessarily saying that it's a "media conspiracy" either. It's just selective reporting. And that is a fact of life. And always will be.
------------------
**floreat pica**
Hey i love collingwood
AND IM NOT A RACIST
i will not be called a racist,you people want to get out in the real world and get a life.What happened at vicky park with winmar and our president at the time Mcallister was a sad moment in our proud history.But i go to every game of every season and im afraid to say racism is alive and well in victoria and saddens me to say that the dirty racist remarks come from all supporters from all clubs.if anything we have cleaned up our backyard with the arrival of leon davis.
JUBJUB i have read some of your posts in my short time here i have one word for you infact two words GROW UP!!!
AND IM NOT A RACIST
i will not be called a racist,you people want to get out in the real world and get a life.What happened at vicky park with winmar and our president at the time Mcallister was a sad moment in our proud history.But i go to every game of every season and im afraid to say racism is alive and well in victoria and saddens me to say that the dirty racist remarks come from all supporters from all clubs.if anything we have cleaned up our backyard with the arrival of leon davis.
JUBJUB i have read some of your posts in my short time here i have one word for you infact two words GROW UP!!!
- Staff
- #42
Ok Alf
I want to end it so here it is
Agree with me that of all the CLUBS collingwood has the worse record (wether that be media induced of not) of all the clubs in the afl when it comes to racial issues
Its still of my opinion that clubs get reputations,not from the players actions nor the officials but from the supporters.
That is were i got that idea from
So ill leave it at the fact neither of us are going to give ground on the issue
By that way it would love to now something
Im going to be really general here
Over here in perth it is GENERALLY believe that upper class usually follow the eagles and the working class and lower are dockers fans
What is the situation in vic
I know that Carlton are on top and the doggies from working class,but were does the rest if the clubs stand in surburb and followers
I want to end it so here it is
Agree with me that of all the CLUBS collingwood has the worse record (wether that be media induced of not) of all the clubs in the afl when it comes to racial issues
Its still of my opinion that clubs get reputations,not from the players actions nor the officials but from the supporters.
That is were i got that idea from
So ill leave it at the fact neither of us are going to give ground on the issue
By that way it would love to now something
Im going to be really general here
Over here in perth it is GENERALLY believe that upper class usually follow the eagles and the working class and lower are dockers fans
What is the situation in vic
I know that Carlton are on top and the doggies from working class,but were does the rest if the clubs stand in surburb and followers
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I don't think class generalisations are all that relevant in footy in Victoria these days, Sabre. I think the clubs' supporter bases have all kind of merged into one. But I can give you some sort of historical perspective if you like.
MELBOURNE - were traditionally the exclusive gentleman's club. In fact, you may be interested to know that the Demons were once officially known as the Melbourne Cricket Club Football Club. Their barrackers were drawn largely from the members of the M.C.C., a privileged private club with a waiting list of many, many years. These days the Football Club is separate from the Cricket Club and a lot of that old snobbishness has disappeared from Melbourne fans.
COLLINGWOOD and RICHMOND - traditionally represented the Irish Catholic working class communities of Melbourne's inner Northern and Eastern suburbs. But again, this is no longer the case. Those areas now have a very high Asian population which is, generally speaking, not terribly interested in football. Both clubs are still predominantly working class in their following, but their supporters tend to live in the outer suburbs. Collingwood has a big following in the North-Eastern suburbs on the Hurstbridge and Epping railway lines.
ESSENDON - is traditionally a middle-class Protestant club. But that tradition also has broken down a lot in more recent times. These days their followers come from just about anywhere and any social grouping. I guess that's what success does. Lots of kids barrack for Essendon these days. Walk past any school anywhere in Melbourne and you will see Essendon jumpers everywhere.
GEELONG - is the country-bumpkins club. Lots of farmers, graziers etc. Generally pretty rich. But of couse, farmers will always tell you how poor they are.
St.KILDA - has a huge following in the Bayside suburbs south-east of Melbourne and along the Mornington Peninsula. Your typical stereo-type of the Saints fans is the surfie.
CARLTON - generally regarded as a rich person's club, but the Carlton area was once a working class area. In the 60s and 70s it had a sort of student/hippy/bohemian image but in more recent years the suburb has become a very high-rent area for yuppies. Many prominent figures in the Liberal Party have supported them over the years, including the Prime Ministers, Menzies and Fraser. And of course, John Elliott. Their supporters are generally well-off and tend to look down on those who aren't. But, of course, there are plenty of exceptions to that rule. They are a very, very, very, very popular club ... for some unknown reason.
KANGAROOS - traditionally working class, inner city. But these days, who knows. Their supporters tend to be young because the club has only enjoyed success in the last 25 years.
HAWTHORN - traditionally a rich person's club from the leafy inner-eastern suburbs. But over the years they've spread out into the outer eastern suburbs. They have a huge following in the lower middle-class mortgage belt around Dandenong and Waverley. The "Family" club. The club of the Swinging Voters. Jeff Kennett barracks for them.
WESTERN BULLDOGS - working class, western suburbs. Pretty staunch. Generally Labor-voting supporters but the Club has been run by a coterie of extremely wealthy businessmen since 1996. Probably the most working-class of all the clubs.
Have I left anyone out?
No, I think I've covered it.
I still won't agree with you on the Collingwood racism issue, Sabre ... but chill out ... let's agree to disagree.
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**floreat pica**
MELBOURNE - were traditionally the exclusive gentleman's club. In fact, you may be interested to know that the Demons were once officially known as the Melbourne Cricket Club Football Club. Their barrackers were drawn largely from the members of the M.C.C., a privileged private club with a waiting list of many, many years. These days the Football Club is separate from the Cricket Club and a lot of that old snobbishness has disappeared from Melbourne fans.
COLLINGWOOD and RICHMOND - traditionally represented the Irish Catholic working class communities of Melbourne's inner Northern and Eastern suburbs. But again, this is no longer the case. Those areas now have a very high Asian population which is, generally speaking, not terribly interested in football. Both clubs are still predominantly working class in their following, but their supporters tend to live in the outer suburbs. Collingwood has a big following in the North-Eastern suburbs on the Hurstbridge and Epping railway lines.
ESSENDON - is traditionally a middle-class Protestant club. But that tradition also has broken down a lot in more recent times. These days their followers come from just about anywhere and any social grouping. I guess that's what success does. Lots of kids barrack for Essendon these days. Walk past any school anywhere in Melbourne and you will see Essendon jumpers everywhere.
GEELONG - is the country-bumpkins club. Lots of farmers, graziers etc. Generally pretty rich. But of couse, farmers will always tell you how poor they are.
St.KILDA - has a huge following in the Bayside suburbs south-east of Melbourne and along the Mornington Peninsula. Your typical stereo-type of the Saints fans is the surfie.
CARLTON - generally regarded as a rich person's club, but the Carlton area was once a working class area. In the 60s and 70s it had a sort of student/hippy/bohemian image but in more recent years the suburb has become a very high-rent area for yuppies. Many prominent figures in the Liberal Party have supported them over the years, including the Prime Ministers, Menzies and Fraser. And of course, John Elliott. Their supporters are generally well-off and tend to look down on those who aren't. But, of course, there are plenty of exceptions to that rule. They are a very, very, very, very popular club ... for some unknown reason.
KANGAROOS - traditionally working class, inner city. But these days, who knows. Their supporters tend to be young because the club has only enjoyed success in the last 25 years.
HAWTHORN - traditionally a rich person's club from the leafy inner-eastern suburbs. But over the years they've spread out into the outer eastern suburbs. They have a huge following in the lower middle-class mortgage belt around Dandenong and Waverley. The "Family" club. The club of the Swinging Voters. Jeff Kennett barracks for them.
WESTERN BULLDOGS - working class, western suburbs. Pretty staunch. Generally Labor-voting supporters but the Club has been run by a coterie of extremely wealthy businessmen since 1996. Probably the most working-class of all the clubs.
Have I left anyone out?
No, I think I've covered it.
I still won't agree with you on the Collingwood racism issue, Sabre ... but chill out ... let's agree to disagree.
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**floreat pica**
PieGirl#41
Senior List
Indian in The Cupboard: That is soo true, you are a legend!!
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Go Chippa Your A Legend
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Go Chippa Your A Legend
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K
Karl Marx
Guest
ALF,
Your synopsis of Carlton failed to include the jewish business connection in the supporter profile.
Your synopsis of Carlton failed to include the jewish business connection in the supporter profile.
alf,
someone here posted a few months back about the different religious and socio-economic backgrounds of the respective melbourne clubs (which of course arnt really relevant today as you said)- but are the different religious and economic backgrounds, and the animosities they would have had in those early days towards eachother, responsible for many of todays big rivalries do you think ???
anyways check the old thread on this topic
http://www.bigfooty.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001297.html
youll notice the usual essendon bashing in there too.
[This message has been edited by Arch (edited 09 October 2000).]
someone here posted a few months back about the different religious and socio-economic backgrounds of the respective melbourne clubs (which of course arnt really relevant today as you said)- but are the different religious and economic backgrounds, and the animosities they would have had in those early days towards eachother, responsible for many of todays big rivalries do you think ???
anyways check the old thread on this topic
http://www.bigfooty.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/001297.html
youll notice the usual essendon bashing in there too.
[This message has been edited by Arch (edited 09 October 2000).]
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Arch,
I've just read that topic that you pointed out to me.
The Hawthorn bit was particularly interesting. I would have certainly imagined that they were WASP, but it is also true about the influence of middle class Catholics as well. I guess they don't come much more Catholic than old John Kennedy (who I'm proud to say was a Collingwood barracker as a kid).
And, of course, one of Collingwood's greatest and most influential supporters in the first half of the 20th century was the famous tote operator and colourful racing identity, John Wren, a man who was as Catholic as Paddy's pigs. And when he got rich and decided to go upmarket (after his origins in the slums of Collingwood) he was one of those who moved to Kew. In fact he lived very close to Archbishop Mannix. Wren is a Collingwood icon. But if he'd develop his interest in football later in life he would have probably been a Hawthorn supporter ... but then, "IF" is a little word with a big meaning.
There is no doubt that the origins of the old VFL clubs are still reflected in the descendants of their original supporters. But of course it's been watered down over the decades (excuse the Catholic pun) by social, economic and demographic changes. And, of course, since those heady days of sectarianism, the influence of religion on people in Australia has declined to the point where no one gives a toss (just as well, because it makes you go blind) whether you are Catholic, Protestant or Calithumpian (whatever that is).
Look, I think all these so-called "rivalries" are a bit of a media construct. Once upon a time Carlton beat us in a Grand Final ... and another one ... and another one ... so we hated their guts. These days they always beat us ... so we still hate their guts. These days everybody always beats us ... so we hate everybody's guts.
There's nothing in it really.
It's accepted that Richmond and Collingwood are both Irish Catholic working class in origin. And yet those clubs hated each other(supposedly) in the 1920s and 1930s. So what do we make of that? Some sort of territorial rivalry between neighbouring suburbs?
"Traditional rivals". The expression has been used so much it's lost its meaning.
It's a myth.
Rivalry these days is not "traditional". It's just a clash of brand names. It's like Nike versus Reebok. It's meaningless. A marketing thing.
I'm not sure about the rivalry between the "mafia" and the "goat-rooters". I really can't get my head around that one. Sounds a bit too esoteric to me.
I think the Essendon-Carlton thing is really just a case of two very popular clubs who've fought out some very big matches against each other. That's really all it is.
And as for the supporters, the only difference I see between Carlton supporters and Essendon supporters is the colour of the merchandise they buy.
And I really think that's what it has come to.
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**floreat pica**
I've just read that topic that you pointed out to me.
The Hawthorn bit was particularly interesting. I would have certainly imagined that they were WASP, but it is also true about the influence of middle class Catholics as well. I guess they don't come much more Catholic than old John Kennedy (who I'm proud to say was a Collingwood barracker as a kid).
And, of course, one of Collingwood's greatest and most influential supporters in the first half of the 20th century was the famous tote operator and colourful racing identity, John Wren, a man who was as Catholic as Paddy's pigs. And when he got rich and decided to go upmarket (after his origins in the slums of Collingwood) he was one of those who moved to Kew. In fact he lived very close to Archbishop Mannix. Wren is a Collingwood icon. But if he'd develop his interest in football later in life he would have probably been a Hawthorn supporter ... but then, "IF" is a little word with a big meaning.
There is no doubt that the origins of the old VFL clubs are still reflected in the descendants of their original supporters. But of course it's been watered down over the decades (excuse the Catholic pun) by social, economic and demographic changes. And, of course, since those heady days of sectarianism, the influence of religion on people in Australia has declined to the point where no one gives a toss (just as well, because it makes you go blind) whether you are Catholic, Protestant or Calithumpian (whatever that is).
Look, I think all these so-called "rivalries" are a bit of a media construct. Once upon a time Carlton beat us in a Grand Final ... and another one ... and another one ... so we hated their guts. These days they always beat us ... so we still hate their guts. These days everybody always beats us ... so we hate everybody's guts.
There's nothing in it really.
It's accepted that Richmond and Collingwood are both Irish Catholic working class in origin. And yet those clubs hated each other(supposedly) in the 1920s and 1930s. So what do we make of that? Some sort of territorial rivalry between neighbouring suburbs?
"Traditional rivals". The expression has been used so much it's lost its meaning.
It's a myth.
Rivalry these days is not "traditional". It's just a clash of brand names. It's like Nike versus Reebok. It's meaningless. A marketing thing.
I'm not sure about the rivalry between the "mafia" and the "goat-rooters". I really can't get my head around that one. Sounds a bit too esoteric to me.
I think the Essendon-Carlton thing is really just a case of two very popular clubs who've fought out some very big matches against each other. That's really all it is.
And as for the supporters, the only difference I see between Carlton supporters and Essendon supporters is the colour of the merchandise they buy.
And I really think that's what it has come to.
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**floreat pica**
T
Tap
Guest
What about Fitzroy.
Gone and forgotten by u guys.
Gone and forgotten by u guys.
cheers for that- I just found it to be all quite interesting. The history of clubs, and those that founded them and their ideals.
Maybe worth asking Tigertank where he/she got that bit of mafia vs freemasons information from.
A.
Maybe worth asking Tigertank where he/she got that bit of mafia vs freemasons information from.
A.
