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Goalkicking - again

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Wallaby

Wallaby

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My pet hobby horse - the most important skill in the game, and the one that doesn't get enough focus in the talk about the game.

I've just finished watching the 3rd quarter from the Sydney game again - and we hit our shots for goal. That was key. We had 7 set shots for goal, and got 5 of them. That was crucial to keeping the comeback momentum rolling.

Set shots were:
Deledio - man on mark 45 out - basically straight. About 75% chance. Goal.
Vickery - 45 out - hard angle - 30% chance - goal.
Cotchin - 25 out - slight angle - 80% chance - miss.
Ellis - 45 out - slight angle - 60% chance - goal.
Gordon - 45 out - moderate angle 55% chance - goal.
Riewoldt - 30 out - tough angle - 40% chance - goal.
Vickery - 45 out - hard angle - 30% chance - miss (just).

I think I'm being generous with the probabilities, but that represents a very good strike rate. There were a lot of long, straight kicks there (Sydney had one set shot for goal in the quarter- from the interchange infringement. 30 out, straight in front - missed everything).

The point I'm making is - yes we played really well to get those shots on goal - but we hit the shots as well. We could quite easily only have kicked one or two of those - none were absolute gimmes (Cotchin's was the easiest). Miss a couple, the Swans kick the Interchange infringement goal (the easiest shot anyone had in the quarter) and the whole game is different.

In ther last quarter, we only had two set shots - and Riewoldt got them both (both fairly easy). The swans had a few tough-ish ones (similar to ours in the 3rd) and missed them.

Far too often I think we focus on side issues re good and bad play - the KEY skill is - nail your goalkicking. Particularly set shots. That's all up to the individual player. It's a bit like a first slip in cricket - the bowlers keep it tight, someone gets the edge - you MUST take the catch. If not - you've let your team down somewhat (depends on how hard the catch was).
 
Last edited:
Wallaby said:
My pet hobby horse - the most important skill in the game, and the one that doesn't get enough focus in the talk about the game.

I've just finished watching the 3rd quarter from the Sydney game again - and we hit our shots for goal. That was key. We had 7 set shots for goal, and got 5 of them. That was crucial to keeping the comeback momentum rolling.

Set shots were:
Deledio - man on mark 45 out - basically straight. About 75% chance. Goal.
Vickery - 45 out - hard angle - 30% chance - goal.
Cotchin - 25 out - slight angle - 80% chance - miss.
Ellis - 45 out - slight angle - 60% chance - goal.
Gordon - 45 out - moderate angle 55% chance - goal.
Riewoldt - 30 out - tough angle - 40% chance - goal.
Vickery - 45 out - hard angle - 30% chance - miss (just).

I think I'm being generous with the probabilities, but that represents a very good strike rate. There were a lot of long, straight kicks there (Sydney had one set shot for goal in the quarter- from the interchange infringement. 30 out, straight in front - missed everything).

The point I'm making is - yes we played really well to get those shots on goal - but we hit the shots as well. We could quite easily only have kicked one or two of those - none were absolute gimmes (Cotchin's was the easiest). Miss a couple, the Swans kick the Interchange infringement goal (the easiest shot anyone had in the quarter) and the whole game is different.



Far too often I think we focus on side issues re good and bad play - the KEY skill is - nail your goalkicking. Particularly set shots. That's all up to the individual player. It's a bit like a first slip in cricket - the bowlers keep it tight, someone gets the edge - you MUST take the catch. If not - you've let your team down somewhat (depends on how hard the catch was).
Click to expand...


Its why i think our forward line is underrated by some.

When the likes of Lids spends more time there with his class the set shots should improve and, like Hawthorn, you have to make the shots to win matches or it certainly helps. You do not want to be like Geelong in 2008 missing shots plus you want the back line and mids play with confidence knowing they are getting scoreboard reward for their efforts as a motivating factor

The other thing is they went into the forward line far smarter, into space not too deep too regularly, spread it around, shared it around a bit, not to predictable and the guys kicked from a reasonable distance out where you didn't have to worry about the likes of Nahas getting it and not being able to make the distance
 

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Mr Magic said:
Its why i think our forward line is underrated by some.

When the likes of Lids spends more time there with his class the set shots should improve and, like Hawthorn, you have to make the shots to win matches or it certainly helps. You do not want to be like Geelong in 2008 missing shots plus you want the back line and mids play with confidence knowing they are getting scoreboard reward for their efforts as a motivating factor
Click to expand...

The convers of that is that Hawthorn lost the 2012 Grand final because the Swans kicked better and straighter. Nothing to do with 'Blood culture' or other bull - they executed a fundamental skill well, and the Hawks didn't.
 
Wallaby said:
The convers of that is that Hawthorn lost the 2012 Grand final because the Swans kicked better and straighter. Nothing to do with 'Blood culture' or other bull - they executed a fundamental skill well, and the Hawks didn't.
Click to expand...


I find Swans matches hard to follow at the best of times because they are so contested and hap hazard it is hard to read a lot of system or methodology. A lot of it was clearance based rather than general footy flow

But what I remember from that match, I think Malceski kicked a snap and Reid kicked a long goal from around half forward in the run. To me my impression was Swans where up against and subconsciously knew to win it they had to take their chances and just have a crack, on the boot no f...ing around given the pressure and respect for the opposition. I think the fact they played the percentages a bit better than the Hawks in this regard and executed a bit better got them across the line in that match as I recall IMO
 
Wallaby said:
My pet hobby horse - the most important skill in the game, and the one that doesn't get enough focus in the talk about the game.

I've just finished watching the 3rd quarter from the Sydney game again - and we hit our shots for goal. That was key. We had 7 set shots for goal, and got 5 of them. That was crucial to keeping the comeback momentum rolling.

Set shots were:
Deledio - man on mark 45 out - basically straight. About 75% chance. Goal.
Vickery - 45 out - hard angle - 30% chance - goal.
Cotchin - 25 out - slight angle - 80% chance - miss.
Ellis - 45 out - slight angle - 60% chance - goal.
Gordon - 45 out - moderate angle 55% chance - goal.
Riewoldt - 30 out - tough angle - 40% chance - goal.
Vickery - 45 out - hard angle - 30% chance - miss (just).

I think I'm being generous with the probabilities, but that represents a very good strike rate. There were a lot of long, straight kicks there (Sydney had one set shot for goal in the quarter- from the interchange infringement. 30 out, straight in front - missed everything).

The point I'm making is - yes we played really well to get those shots on goal - but we hit the shots as well. We could quite easily only have kicked one or two of those - none were absolute gimmes (Cotchin's was the easiest). Miss a couple, the Swans kick the Interchange infringement goal (the easiest shot anyone had in the quarter) and the whole game is different.

In ther last quarter, we only had two set shots - and Riewoldt got them both (both fairly easy). The swans had a few tough-ish ones (similar to ours in the 3rd) and missed them.

Far too often I think we focus on side issues re good and bad play - the KEY skill is - nail your goalkicking. Particularly set shots. That's all up to the individual player. It's a bit like a first slip in cricket - the bowlers keep it tight, someone gets the edge - you MUST take the catch. If not - you've let your team down somewhat (depends on how hard the catch was).
Click to expand...
Good post, it's true of all sports, make your puts, take your catches, take your chances Liverpool!!! :mad:, minimise unforced errors, in fact make your opponent beat you, don't gift it to them.
 
I've been lurking this board since the start of the year but this post was discussing the very thing I've been musing over the last couple of days so I thought I'd join the conversation. Jack is a very reliable kick from set shots and his second and third efforts have been enormous. So I took a look into his stats.

Rd Opponent Result
1 Carlton (W) - 4 Goals , 0 Behinds
2 Western Bulldogs (L) - 2 Goals , 4 Behinds
3 Brisbane Lions (W) - 4 Goals , 0 Behinds
4 Melbourne (L) - 0 Goals , 4 Behinds
5 Geelong Cats (L) - 3 Goals , 0 Behinds
6 North Melbourne (L) - 3 Goals , 2 Behinds
7 Collingwood (W) - 4 Goals , 0 Behinds
8 Port Adelaide (W) - 4 Goals , 0 Behinds
9 Essendon (W) - 1 Goal , 2 Behinds
10 Fremantle (W) - 2 Goals , 1 Behind
12 West Coast Eagles (L) - 1 Goal , 3 Behinds
13 Sydney Swans (W) - 6 Goals , 1 Behind

The conclusion I drew was that when Jack is on and kicking straight we would often come out of the match as victors. Yeah our midfielders will get some goals here and there but they are not always in a position to slot the goals needed to win the game as they are away fulfilling other roles in the team. So it seems we are still very reliant on Jack to put on that scoreboard pressure.

However I've been pleasantly surprised with the performance of one of our other forwards in recent weeks and that is Ty Vickery. I have been a silent doubter of his in years gone by as it always seemed he wasn't living up to his potential but that post is for another day. I have been slowly revising my opinion of him over the six games he's played this year (4 of which we won against some tough opposition). Here are his goal kicking stats for this season.

Rd Opponent Result

5 Geelong Cats (L) 1 Goal , 1 Behind
7 Collingwood (W) 3 Goals , 0 Behinds
8 Port Adelaide (W) 0 Goals , 1 Behind [Injured]
10 Fremantle (W) 3 Goals , 0 Behinds
12 West Coast Eagles (L) 2 Goals , 0 Behinds
13 Sydney Swans (W) 1 Goal , 1 Behind

So from five and a half games Ty has kicked 10 goals and only 3 Behinds (One of those behinds was a very nearly a goal as the OP pointed out). While watching the Freo and Sydney games I was overcome with a very weird feeling when I saw Vickery lining up for a set shot. I finally found the word to describe it and that word is "Confident". I was confident Vickery would kick the goal and my reasoning was because he has been so very accurate with his set shots. Don't get me wrong Vickery still has some work to do in taking contested marks and following up with second efforts. He is by no means the complete package like Jack is but we are starting to see glimpses of it like in the Sydney match. What he is though is a very lethal kick when in range of the goal line. What I would like to see is Vickery work harder and get more of the ball in our forward 50 where he can use his kick to really hurt the opposition.

I feel like our forward structure is one of the few puzzle pieces left to resolve before we can become a contender and I think we may be on the cusp of everything clicking. You don't beat three of the top five teams on the ladder in six weeks without doing something right. Those are my thoughts and I may be completely wrong so feel free to dissect/discuss.
 

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Alfar said:
I've been lurking this board since the start of the year but this post was discussing the very thing I've been musing over the last couple of days so I thought I'd join the conversation. Jack is a very reliable kick from set shots and his second and third efforts have been enormous. So I took a look into his stats.

Rd Opponent Result
1 Carlton (W) - 4 Goals , 0 Behinds
2 Western Bulldogs (L) - 2 Goals , 4 Behinds
3 Brisbane Lions (W) - 4 Goals , 0 Behinds
4 Melbourne (L) - 0 Goals , 4 Behinds
5 Geelong Cats (L) - 3 Goals , 0 Behinds
6 North Melbourne (L) - 3 Goals , 2 Behinds
7 Collingwood (W) - 4 Goals , 0 Behinds
8 Port Adelaide (W) - 4 Goals , 0 Behinds
9 Essendon (W) - 1 Goal , 2 Behinds
10 Fremantle (W) - 2 Goals , 1 Behind
12 West Coast Eagles (L) - 1 Goal , 3 Behinds
13 Sydney Swans (W) - 6 Goals , 1 Behind

The conclusion I drew was that when Jack is on and kicking straight we would often come out of the match as victors. Yeah our midfielders will get some goals here and there but they are not always in a position to slot the goals needed to win the game as they are away fulfilling other roles in the team. So it seems we are still very reliant on Jack to put on that scoreboard pressure.

However I've been pleasantly surprised with the performance of one of our other forwards in recent weeks and that is Ty Vickery. I have been a silent doubter of his in years gone by as it always seemed he wasn't living up to his potential but that post is for another day. I have been slowly revising my opinion of him over the six games he's played this year (4 of which we won against some tough opposition). Here are his goal kicking stats for this season.

Rd Opponent Result

5 Geelong Cats (L) 1 Goal , 1 Behind
7 Collingwood (W) 3 Goals , 0 Behinds
8 Port Adelaide (W) 0 Goals , 1 Behind [Injured]
10 Fremantle (W) 3 Goals , 0 Behinds
12 West Coast Eagles (L) 2 Goals , 0 Behinds
13 Sydney Swans (W) 1 Goal , 1 Behind

So from five and a half games Ty has kicked 10 goals and only 3 Behinds (One of those behinds was a very nearly a goal as the OP pointed out). While watching the Freo and Sydney games I was overcome with a very weird feeling when I saw Vickery lining up for a set shot. I finally found the word to describe it and that word is "Confident". I was confident Vickery would kick the goal and my reasoning was because he has been so very accurate with his set shots. Don't get me wrong Vickery still has some work to do in taking contested marks and following up with second efforts. He is by no means the complete package like Jack is but we are starting to see glimpses of it like in the Sydney match. What he is though is a very lethal kick when in range of the goal line. What I would like to see is Vickery work harder and get more of the ball in our forward 50 where he can use his kick to really hurt the opposition.

I feel like our forward structure is one of the few puzzle pieces left to resolve before we can become a contender and I think we may be on the cusp of everything clicking. You don't beat three of the top five teams on the ladder in six weeks without doing something right. Those are my thoughts and I may be completely wrong so feel free to dissect/discuss.
Click to expand...

Excellent first few post.
Solid analysis.
Welcome to the board. :)
 

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Here's a thought.

If we kicked for goal against GWS like we did against Sydney a week ago - we probably win by 8 goals and ho hum. Nobody cares.

If we kicked against Sydney like we did against GWS yesterday - we probably lose - 'Richmond can't match the top sides, pretenders etc'.

We are definitely making enough chances to win our games - so our game plan is working, our desperation, intensity is OK. Sure, there's some in-game ups and downs, but overall, the last 6 weeks or so has been fine in those regards (except for our holiday jet-lag vs West Coast).

Kicking your goals is so crucial.
 
I didn't think we played to the conditions enough. I know they had an extra man back but you'd like to think some of our good players forward just getting the ball quickly to 30m from goal directly in front, ball to ground or a stoppage and create a shot on goal. Was working for GWS.
 
Ive always said for our forward line to be better we need our smart players there..consisting of Martin Edwards Jack Vickery Deledio Griffiths..keep them there as our starting Six and we will do better....Edwards and Martin to rotate middle when needed
 
Wallaby said:
My pet hobby horse - the most important skill in the game, and the one that doesn't get enough focus in the talk about the game.

I've just finished watching the 3rd quarter from the Sydney game again - and we hit our shots for goal. That was key. We had 7 set shots for goal, and got 5 of them. That was crucial to keeping the comeback momentum rolling.

Set shots were:
Deledio - man on mark 45 out - basically straight. About 75% chance. Goal.
Vickery - 45 out - hard angle - 30% chance - goal.
Cotchin - 25 out - slight angle - 80% chance - miss.
Ellis - 45 out - slight angle - 60% chance - goal.
Gordon - 45 out - moderate angle 55% chance - goal.
Riewoldt - 30 out - tough angle - 40% chance - goal.
Vickery - 45 out - hard angle - 30% chance - miss (just).

I think I'm being generous with the probabilities, but that represents a very good strike rate. There were a lot of long, straight kicks there (Sydney had one set shot for goal in the quarter- from the interchange infringement. 30 out, straight in front - missed everything).

The point I'm making is - yes we played really well to get those shots on goal - but we hit the shots as well. We could quite easily only have kicked one or two of those - none were absolute gimmes (Cotchin's was the easiest). Miss a couple, the Swans kick the Interchange infringement goal (the easiest shot anyone had in the quarter) and the whole game is different.

In ther last quarter, we only had two set shots - and Riewoldt got them both (both fairly easy). The swans had a few tough-ish ones (similar to ours in the 3rd) and missed them.

Far too often I think we focus on side issues re good and bad play - the KEY skill is - nail your goalkicking. Particularly set shots. That's all up to the individual player. It's a bit like a first slip in cricket - the bowlers keep it tight, someone gets the edge - you MUST take the catch. If not - you've let your team down somewhat (depends on how hard the catch was).
Click to expand...
Good post,but i would also like to add its the lack of scoring shots also.Can we restrict Hawthorn to a score below a 100 bc that's what i believe we need to do to beat them?
We have struggled to kick over a 100 points during games for a while.
i am worried we are bit like a SRL team where we are always beatable bc we don't have a score on the board.On Paper you would say we have a 15-20goal a game team,but it rarely happens.It irks me sides like STKilda can kick 25+goals against THE Bummers and also hold them back to 52pts yet we just plod along and struggle to beat them and many below average teams.Apart from Jack yesterday and a few cameos by Lids Sheds we just butchered more than we created
I enjoy winning,but winnig ugly can be stressful at the most and thwarting with danger bc you can be broken open in 15min of footy.
 

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