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List Mgmt. Hard decisions

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That Hird interview on SEN Crunch Time concerns me.

All but telling us that he wants to give the players the opportunity to see whether they can play.

This won't end well for the fans.
 
BrunoV said:
It's no coincidence that we took the game on and conceded many more shots on goal (should easily have been in excess of 100 points).
Click to expand...

It's no coincidence that we've been a defensively minded team for two years either - it's good coaching - we really don't have a single recognised forward. For mine this is one of the key reasons we cannot seriously consider ourselves to be in contention.

Blaming the poor performance of our forwards on the midfield is also wishful thinking. When Watson consistently looks like the best forward we have (and he probably is - always looks dangerous, leads well, kicks for goal beautifully) and you've got guys like Goddard looking in vain for a good lead - well... need we look any further for the source of our woes?
 

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Bunk Moreland said:
Expand?

Didn't hear it.
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It's a long interview but worth listening to.

http://www.sen.com.au/audio


He spoke about the careers of players flashing before them without really being given the chance to play and see how good they are.

I think we know the answer to that and trying to cling to form patches in 2012 and 2013 like they reflect where we really stand which, given the significant and dramatic improvement of other clubs and changes in the way the game is being played, is just irresponsible and unrealistic even if it is well intentioned (which I have no doubt it is).

I don't really see how the North game was a step in the right direction. We took the game on and were opened up with inaccurate kicking the only reason we did not suffer a heavier defeat.

There is a lot seemingly being placed in the ability to perform and durability of veterans.

There are then the little things. Robbo asks Hird if he would like to bring in an archetypal small forward, to which Hird says he would look at it, which coincides with Fantasia being named in defence for the VFL team taking to the field minutes after the interview. I then watch the replay of the match and see Ashby doing a reasonably good job in defence to enable Baguley to play more up the field. The saying shifting deck chairs on the Titanic comes to mind (especially when the run comes from Dempsey and Colyer who struggle to consistently use the ball well).

Why does everything have to be so goddamned complicated?

I do not feel good about the team right now.
 
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I Hope Chapman And Fletcher Go On Another Year!!
 
BrunoV said:
It's a long interview but worth listening to.

http://www.sen.com.au/audio


He spoke about the careers of players flashing before them without really being given the chance to play and see how good they are.

I think we know the answer to that and trying to cling to form patches in 2012 and 2013 like they reflect where we really stand, given the significant and dramatic improvement of other clubs and changes in the way the game is being played, is just irresponsible even if it is well intentioned (which I have no doubt it is).

I don't really see how the North game was a step in the right direction. We took the game on and were opened up with inaccurate kicking the only reason we did not suffer a heavier defeat.

There is a lot seemingly being placed in the ability to perform and durability of veterans.

There are then the little things. Robbo asks Hird if he would like to bring in an archetypal small forward, to which Hird says he would look at it, which coincides with Fantasia being named in defence for the VFL team taking to the field minutes after the interview. I then watch the replay of the match and see Ashby doing a reasonably good job in defence to enable Baguley to play more up the field. The saying shifting deck chairs on the Titanic comes to mind (especially when the run comes from Dempsey and Colyer who struggle to consistently use the ball well).

Why does everything have to be so goddamned complicated?

I do not feel good about the team right now.
Click to expand...

Still think Howlett is by far our best small forward option
 
I'm Still Disappointed We Didn't Pick Up Brad Sewell. Could've Helped Out In The CoalFace AKA The Engine Room.
 
BrunoV said:
It's a long interview but worth listening to.

http://www.sen.com.au/audio


He spoke about the careers of players flashing before them without really being given the chance to play and see how good they are.

I think we know the answer to that and trying to cling to form patches in 2012 and 2013 like they reflect where we really stand which, given the significant and dramatic improvement of other clubs and changes in the way the game is being played, is just irresponsible and unrealistic even if it is well intentioned (which I have no doubt it is).

I don't really see how the North game was a step in the right direction. We took the game on and were opened up with inaccurate kicking the only reason we did not suffer a heavier defeat.

There is a lot seemingly being placed in the ability to perform and durability of veterans.

There are then the little things. Robbo asks Hird if he would like to bring in an archetypal small forward, to which Hird says he would look at it, which coincides with Fantasia being named in defence for the VFL team taking to the field minutes after the interview. I then watch the replay of the match and see Ashby doing a reasonably good job in defence to enable Baguley to play more up the field. The saying shifting deck chairs on the Titanic comes to mind (especially when the run comes from Dempsey and Colyer who struggle to consistently use the ball well).

Why does everything have to be so goddamned complicated?

I do not feel good about the team right now.
Click to expand...

Thank you for the link, I have reposted in the ASAGA thread.

Personally I don't think he's pointing to anybody leaving the club... just the obvious fact they're all so tired of it.

Concerning all the same. I don't think we can expect much this year.
 
Bunk Moreland said:
Thank you for the link, I have reposted in the ASAGA thread.

Personally I don't think he's pointing to anybody leaving the club... just the obvious fact they're all so tired of it.

Concerning all the same. I don't think we can expect much this year.
Click to expand...



Have you listened to the ASADA extract or the whole interview (about 20 min)?

I'm not worried about players leaving. I worried about the club being to scared to move players on and make realistic calls that should be made because of the guilt about careers flashing before eyes.
 
Some hard decisions will need to be made for the simple fact that we aren't getting better and multiple teams appear to have surpassed us (Adelaide, Western Bulldogs and GWS). The team risks being stranded in no mans land - too good to bottom out but no threat of winning a final or causing any damage.

bombadeer said:
I honestly believe if Carlisle cannot make it as a forward, we look to trade him. Hooker and Hurley are better and more versatile players, and Jake is too poor at ground level to go third tall.

He either plays as a tall forward or we trade him to a team that needs a potential AA defender (there are about 17 of them).
Click to expand...

If Hurley is a more versatile player then you make him go against the third tall. What you don't do is trade a potential AA at the same time that Fletcher retires, leaving you with just two KPD and minimal depth.
 
hurlygurdy said:
Two things:
1. With ASAGA going on we have not had a chance to assess the list that we have. Players have never before had to play under the levels of stress that this team has endured, so talk of a rebuild right now is therefore ridiculous. Furthermore, this list has to be backed in for the good of the club culture. Even if they play out the next 4 years and only win a few finals, that will be a victory in the grander scheme of things. The clubs very existence would have been on the line if the players hadn't held strong.

2.
a) Our defense is flag ready.
b) Our midfield is really interesting right now... it requires one of Myers or Hocking at all times clearly, but look at the gains we have made this year in the form of Stanton's new lease on life, Cooney showing he is not done yet and Colyer continuing on last seasons efforts. These players were the real question marks going into this season. The actual issues that have arisen are with Watson and Heppell being uncharacteristically up and down (probably because we are missing Myers and Hocking), and Zaka being out of touch. I think we have the cattle here to win a flag.
c) Our forward line is where the buck stops when it comes to winning a flag with this list. What is going on? I'm seriously not sure. But if we want to point the finger in the sense of questioning credentials, this is where it has to fall. JD is useful but is still weak in the contest. Carlisle is useful but hasn't found his mojo. Chappy is hot and cold, but is probably in his last season regardless. Ambrose plays a role but needs to either lift or be replaced. I'm not sure BJ is as good a forward as he is made out to be. And that about covers it! No wonder it is our weak area! As i said in the preseason, everything really depends on Carlisle this year and next. If he dominates, then JD can get off the leash and make more of an impact. But we also need our resting mids to show more nous around the goals... They all seem to be more capable of running forward as midfielders and kicking goals, when we really need the likes of Zach or Colyer to become genuine crumbers. So in short, we need Carlisle and Ambrose to come good (or find a ready made CHF) and we need someone in our midfield to show more forward abilities (other than Chappy). That's not too tall and order to have this list flag ready i wouldn't have thought?

Some people here are talking about the likes of Howlett as being needed to be moved on. In the next breath they are saying our depth is shit. Howlett would be unlikely to be getting a game if Hocking and Myers were both fit, and in their absence has been extremely solid and useful as depth. Do people really think that a depth player is going to get you a win against Freo!? Howlett has been playing his role beyond any doubt.
Click to expand...

I like a lot of what you said however I don't agree it's all dependant on Carlilse.

Right now Joey et al can't get the delivery they need to prove themselves dangerous scoring forwards. Their success is completely dependant on the midfielders and outside runners. Howlett, Colyer, Hibberd, Melksham to name a few do not deliver the ball well enough into the forward 50. If we can get this right, along with showing our forwards to lead and lead and lead then maybe we'll start to push. Until then we'll be bottom feeders of the highest order.
Personally I'm sick of this slow moving, fancy handball, going backwards bullshit that's being dished up week after week. These guys know how to run the ball, and run it well, I just wish they'd do it!
 

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Do we need a full rebuild. No. Do we still have some work to do on the list. Yes.
There are a few issues but one i do not think is an issue that has been mentioned is Chapman and Cooney. I do not think they keep blokes out of
the side as the problem is the blokes they are keeping out of the side are not good enough.

First problem is a few of the young blokes are still not ready to step up or not good enough to step up.

Jackson Merritt, 30 games and no signs of being any better than he was at the start of last season.
Nick Obrien, a later pick who is a very good VFL player but just makes up the numbers at AFL level.
Elliot Kavanagh, early pick but also a risky pick as he had an injury history before he was drafted and has had continual soft tissue problem until this season.
Is still very light and that is the problem as he has no real outside game. He is not super quick so he has to rely on his very good inside game but at the moment that does not translate into a position at AFL level where you can get away with being lightly framed if you have outside run and stamina.
Have been a fan but he is not showing many signs of improving his outside game.
Will Hams another who has had too many injury problems, is a lightweight and plays inside. Is as tough as an old boot but the Freo game showed the big
boys will simply bash you into submission if you try to play inside footy at 75kg. This bloke is a good inside player but he needs to put on 10kg if he is going to make it.
Alex Browne another common theme coming up, injury. Was ready to go before he did his knee. Is almost ready to go again so i hope we get a look as unlike others he does have body size and a bit of pace.
Fantasia given a bit of a look but is still very light. Unlike Hams and Kav this bloke is more of an outside runner. Currently been doing some more defensive roles to sharpen him up in that area. He is the bloke i have my fingers crossed for the most as he has pace and can find the ball outside and does not have to
get a lot bigger to play that role.

Hindsight is a wonderful thing but i was on record here before either played a game and not taking Luke Parker still stings. How we could use him in the midfield right now.

The real hope is in Langford and Laverde. Both have shown really good signs early but it is early.
Dalgliesh is another who keeps getting injured when we need him to have momentum. Has pace, is 83 kg so body size he is ok. Really need him to have a good run.
Asby, Gleeson and Z Merrett look good although Asby has a bit to go with his decision making.
The other issue is we bring blokes in to play half forward and it is the toughest position to play on the ground as other sides load up half back with their best ball users.

Now the next problem is a team issue. Most of the older players are not so good at the team stuff. Watson, Stanton, Goddard, Zaka, Demspey, Howlett and co are very ordinary at protecting their team mates. Virtually no shepards between them, too many times looking for an easy kicks or asking others to do it.
If we are to make the next step it has to be one in and all in otherwise the trust breaks down.

Speaking of trust a bit of it has gone out of our back 6 and having Dempsey in the back half does not help as they do not trust him as far as defense goes. That has had an effect on the roll over defense and now players are stopping moving off their man as often as they are worried about getting burnt. This is also a part fault of the midfield who are not covering for the back often enough either.
Trust , little word but big need. We do not have it.
The other T word , Team also goes missing. We need to lift at least 50% in this area.

Forward line. The obvious problem most picked before the year began. Too much inexperience in Ambrose and Daniher. Calrlisle having played 70 games should be better but is only 20 games in as a forward. Need an experienced forward to help out but i ma stating the obvious there.

Midfield, slow leg speed across the board that can not handle run and spread which leads to too much chasing, lack of run and spread when we have the ball and makes it easy for sides to cover us one on one. Can not have Watson,Heppell, Stanton or Heppell Stanton Goddard or Zaka or any combination of the above in the middle all the time. We need team Watson, team Heppell and a group that can rotate in each side with one pacy player.

The other run problem is Dempsey and Colyer need the ball 20 times a game but also need to do something with how they use it.

Ruck. Tommy is not going as well as he was and Ryder is gone.

What does it mean. Well we are still mid pack. A few regulars need to be moved on. We need to keep working the draft and the FA pool and get better at trading. The way i see it we are maybe 4 players from taking the next step but we have to find some and hope 3 or 4 of what we have continues to step up.
What we can not do is pin our hopes on J Merritt, Kav, Obrien etc Not going to make the difference.
 
I often wonder how much of our 'success' has hindered our recruitment over the past 4-8 seasons.

Not finishing in the top 4, but also not finishing in the bottom 4 has meant our recruiting department has had to feast on scraps rather than jump on a big fish.

Developing players is great, but they have to come from some stock to give them a foot up into the club's best 22.
 

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I think ultimately we need to go as hard as we can this year to try to win a final. If we fail in this then its safe to say that at least some of our list needs to be turned over. We've had a lot of the same guys for many years. It probably doesn't need to be a mass clean out but it will be significant. We already have a few oldies who are all but certain to retire in:
Fletcher, Chapman, Winderlich. Then we have some of our VFL midfielders that are a good chance to be delisted in KAV, O'Brien, Aylett etc. None of them look any closer to being best 22 than they did several years ago. That was 6 names without trying too hard - there's another 6 that you could bring up that would be a bit more of an argument.

We do have some good young talent to build around in the likes of Heppell, Zac Merrett, Gleeson and Daniher plus our key defenders in Hurley/Hooker are only in the middle of their careers. So we won't be starting from nothing but we definitely need to find more quality mids and forwards. There are plenty of guys from 27-31 that can support this young group as they develop. We need to get a number of our 3-5 year players to step up and we need to continue to recruit shrewdly. It will also help if guys like Laverde and Langford can turn out as good as we hope.

As it stands right now we look like we will be perennial 7-12 finishers unless something major changes. I hope i'm wrong and that the side has another gear. I think ultimately we are too inconsistent, not talented enough and have too many off-field distractions and issues to achieve success in the next few years. We have good kids but not as many as other clubs. We have good experienced players but not as good as other clubs or as many. We are kind of stuck in no-man's land right now.

Damn writing this has made me depressed. I friggen hope i'm wrong.
 
No way we're winning a flag with the 22-28 pplayers we consistently put out week in week out. It's not to say we can't turn it around though if Hird has the balls to acknowledge our status & start playing kids that are simply wallowing in the VFL. It might only mean rotating through the same 4-6 kids regularly, giving them that consistent taste & not dropping them. Let's see if Kavanagh has got what it takes, bring in Dalgeish, Fantasia, keep reintroducing Langford, give Laverde a crack. Kids need to believe they have what it takes & so long as they're surrounded by good leaders & we have plenty of them, they may well in fact thrive.

As honest as the likes of Melksham, Stanton & Howlett are, they're all to similiar with too many limitations and are ineveitably blocking the development of the next crop. I don't think we lose much by not playing them to be honest.

Can we offer Carlisle as a trade for a forward like Darling where West Coast need a key back? Or Dixon from GC?? Or for atop 6 draft pick?

I don't give a shit if we finish 12th so long as we're looking to improve organic growth of our list & taking the initiave to look at players from other clubs who could fill a void.

Let's show some dash & imagination!!
 
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This is where it all begins.... our midfield:

Watson (30) - A grade inside
Heppel (23) - A grade inside

Hocking(27) - Injured. B grade tagger, hard
Myers (26) - Injured. B grade. Big body can play inside a little but hands below not great.
Zaka (25) - Injured. B+ grade. Outside, Average pace to ok, can be very damaging. Defensively lacking
Stanton (29) - B grade. Outside, slow, can rack up the numbers. Defensively lacking
Goddard (30) - B+ grade. Outside, slow, can rack up numbers + high quality disposal and leadership. imo coming to a stop quickly. Bomber just had an interesting thing to say on on the couch about not doing enough when the time comes.
Colyer (23) - C+ Grade. Quick, good kick now, and instrumental. Needs to get it more and needs more support.
Howlett (26) - C- Grade. Hard, gives all but physically limited.
Cooney (30) - Injured. B grade. Quick, quality disposal. Former champion who can still play a bit.
Melksham (24) - C Grade. Quick, tough, good penetrating kick. Lacks footy smarts.
Z Merrett (20) - C+ Grade. Quick, tough, excellent disposal and footy smarts. Has all the tools to become A grade.

At this point in time we have 4 of our better midfielders injured and killing our rotations. 2 of these have a bit of run in their legs.

Melksham, while going ok, needs to go another cog. Not sure he has the other cog in him to carry us out of middle of the road.
Colyer - Need another one of him that can get a few more touches.

Looking at our side above I think we could construct a midfield that can push close to top 4 but once a few are injured the flaws of the others are greatly exposed. Not sure Goddard and Stanton can play in the same side together along with Zaka.

Our age bracket is not too bad in this space and we just need to keep finding 1 or 2 to add to the mix. Or we could have more fall of the perch and go backwards. If we have an injury to Watson and Heppel we are stuffed.

Its time we made a call on a kid and gave him more midfield time instead of playing half forward or from the sub. Alex Browne or J Merrett need an extended run on the ball.
 
Doss said:
kelvin_sheedy, would you mind expanding on what Bomber said about Goddard, please?
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They had a quick grab about the game and Jono Brown or Dunstall mentioned Goddard and cut to a Bomber clip saying something about him. Bomber said he can do it all, play back, forward, on the ball but he just needs to do it when the time comes. Put his head over it and get it.

You could see the frustration when Bomber was talking as imo was saying he just doesn't do it enough when he can.
 
it's one thing to say we have no depth or youth coming through but when we continually bring them in to play them as a sub for 2 games or give them 1 run and bugger them off back to the VFL to "work on deficiencies" what do we expect?

Ariel Stienberg- what, 5th year on the list and 3 games? what's the point?

E-Kav - 4th year and 9 games, most as sub or once off.

NOB - 4th year and 5 games.

ashby, and the injured dalgleish and hams, throw in Fantasia too. we collect all these draft picks but don't play them.
 

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