Harvey and Lyon

[theGav56]

The Reg thread is full of the pain he feels for a sacked coach. But that is history.

A couple of questions;

If a club believes they have a significantly better coach available to them, should they pursue that coach? (this is a Yes or No question) YES

Who do you think would be the best coach for us this season and beyond? (You may think Mick Malthouse, but you can only choose one of Harvey or Lyon) LYON

Do you think opposition coaches would rather play a Fremantle team coached by Lyon or Harvey. HARVEY

How disruptive/positive to the playing group do you think changing coaches has been?

very diruptive
mildly diruptive
none
mildy positive
very positive

 

[estibador]

The only one of those that would even be slightly up for debate would be the last.

And it would take some Churchill/Lincoln/MalcomX super-debating hybrid freak to even come close to convincing anyone there's been any disruption to the player group.

 

[tacopavlich]

A better way to go would be to let Reg vent, ignore him and move on, rather than drag this issue through the dirt for the hundredth time with another thread.

 

[yakka man]

The only one of those that would even be slightly up for debate would be the last.

And it would take some Churchill/Lincoln/MalcomX super-debating hybrid freak to even come close to convincing anyone there's been any disruption to the player group.

I disagree. Most of the playing group has been dirsupted but in a good way. They came back from the break trimmer and fitter and have been training hard this pre-season. Regardless of how this season pans out I believe the club made a good move.

 

[Ktrain]

How about a new folk duo?

Playing tonight at Fly By Night Club - Noah and the Whale, with special guests Harvey and the Lyon...

 

[peppy la pew]

Good topic Gav,

Unfortunately some people have an axe to grind with the club 24/7.

What i don't understand is the level of hate directed at individuals within the club from certain people, **** me, it's a game of footy.

I will put my hand up and admitt that at the end of last season I was exasperated, and ready to withdraw my membership* Those last thrashings were heartbreaking

To be honest, the appointment of Ross Lyon made me rethink, and my family are back on board. I had muchos love and respect for Harves, but a blind man could see he was doing doggie paddle, while the field swam confidenrtly past at an express pace of breast stroke.

I have never been so penileinhand full of anticipation towards a season since 06.


* due to unforseen circumstances funds have been tight the last 18 mths, otherwise renewal was a given

 

[chinggis77]

Reggie's name says it all. Probably a pensioner who just hates all change notwithstanding that change is for the better.

 

[Reginald Perrin]

If a club believes they have a significantly better coach available to them, should they pursue that coach? (this is a Yes or No question) YES

Who do you think would be the best coach for us this season and beyond? (You may think Mick Malthouse, but you can only choose one of Harvey or Lyon) LYON

You can't have it both ways Gav. If you say the club should pursue a better coach when one becomes availalble, wouldn't you also put Lyon to the same test when Malthouse becomes available in 2013? Taking it further, if Chris Scott wins the next 2 premierships, wouldn't you also consider replacing Malthouse with Scott when Scott's contract runs out?

This is all purely hypothetical, and I'm not advocating any of it, but everything isn't as simplistic as you make it sound and one day we will have to keep a coach on for his full contract or face the prospect of never being able to attract a decent coach again.

A better way to go would be to let Reg vent, ignore him and move on, rather than drag this issue through the dirt for the hundredth time with another thread.

Good advice taco.

The reason I started my dumping thread was so that everything could be contained in there and not keep spilling into other threads.

You just can't help some people.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

Noone is questioning who is better out of Harvey and Lyon, they are questioning the muppet-herd mentaility of our blatantly unintelligent posters, and their penchant for sticking the boot in to Harvery.

Mora does a knee? Blame Harvey.
Sandi does his toe? Blame Harvey.
Barlow pulls up sore after his first hit out? Blame Harvey.

The "Kick The Bloody Thing" crew is rife on BF Freo.

 

[estibador]

You can't have it both ways Gav. If you say the club should pursue a better coach when one becomes availalble, wouldn't you also put Lyon to the same test when Malthouse becomes available in 2013? Taking it further, if Chris Scott wins the next 2 premierships, wouldn't you also consider replacing Malthouse with Scott when Scott's contract runs out?

There's degrees though isn't there? Lyon is (from all evidence available) a far better coach than Harvey. Even Harves would have to admit that if he was capable of being truly honest with himself. The difference between Lyon and Malthouse/Scott/Clarkson appears to be fairly negligible though, and largely dependant on the cattle at their disposal.

You wouldn't trade Broughton for Mackie for example, would you? But would you trade him for Ablett? Absolutely.

 

[Reginald Perrin]

There's degrees though isn't there? Lyon is (from all evidence available) a far better coach than Harvey. Even Harves would have to admit that if he was capable of being truly honest with himself. The difference between Lyon and Malthouse/Scott/Clarkson appears to be fairly negligible though, and largely dependant on the cattle at their disposal.

You wouldn't trade Broughton for Mackie for example, would you? But would you trade him for Ablett? Absolutely.

The Harvey/Lyon comparison seems fair, not sure about comparing Lyon with the others though, he's the only one of the 4 without a premiership.

 

[estibador]

The Harvey/Lyon comparison seems fair, not sure about comparing Lyon with the others though, he's the only one of the 4 without a premiership.

But he did every thing humanly possible to get his team in a position to win one. A bounce here, a goal umpiring decision there, and he could be a two time medallist. There's only so much a coach can do.

Don't fall for the simplistic mindset of those idiots on the main board who only look at the final outcome while lacking the ability to analyse what actually happened.

 

[Nothing]

...one day we will have to keep a coach on for his full contract or face the prospect of never being able to attract a decent coach again.

This is the first experienced we have ever attracted. So are you conceding that Lyon is a decent coach?

In turn, do you think Harvey was a 'decent' coach?

 

[Ktrain]

The Harvey/Lyon comparison seems fair, not sure about comparing Lyon with the others though, he's the only one of the 4 without a premiership.

He was assistant coach at Sydney when they won a flag though.

As a sidepoint - its amazing how players can get blanketed with the 'premiership player' brush yet assistant coaches don't get that level of recognition.

 

[peppy la pew]

Noone is questioning who is better out of Harvey and Lyon, they are questioning the muppet-herd mentaility of our blatantly unintelligent posters, and their penchant for sticking the boot in to Harvery.

Mora does a knee? Blame Harvey.
Sandi does his toe? Blame Harvey.
Barlow pulls up sore after his first hit out? Blame Harvey.

The "Kick The Bloody Thing" crew is rife on BF Freo.

What do you mean by " noone is questiong who is better " ?

If you don't believe that Lyon is a better coach, tf

Harves came to this club and was involved in a late night brawl at a Darwin nightclub, that proves he was a good lad and one of the boys. Not really the leadership required for Tarrant, Black etc.

We need a coach similar to when Malthouse arrived at the weages.

Someone with genuine inside perspective on the east coast way of " going about it ", and a man who commands respect from everyone,

If some of you lot are so worried about poor old Harves, keep tabs on Brissie and wait until Crazy Voss is booted and yours truly is appointed the messiah.

I'll dumb it down, Lyon was 1 bounce away from a flag, with a list I believe, not quite as good as ours.

 

[more_of_bito]

This poster is a little happy after a night on the turps,and I'm writing on with one eye closed...... But have to defend Reg. Every board , team, workplace, government needs a Reg. Without someone questioning there's no accountability and honestly if theres noone questioning then there's no change. This freo administration questioned 12 months in advance of Harvey's contract and went after the best coach available In preparation for 2014. Because they asked the question they got him a year early. Harvey was a good coach, but Lyon is better IMO.

 

[Schauermann]

it's a game of footy.

That's what I like to think, but mostly it's business and success at all cost. Especially shown in this coaching change.

A quote from Wild Bunch I like:

"When you side with a man, you stay with him! And if you can't do that, you're like some animal, you're finished! *We're* finished! All of us! "

PS I found Harvey culture of excuses last season strange, too, but it has to be done the proper way.

 

[Reginald Perrin]

But he did every thing humanly possible to get his team in a position to win one. A bounce here, a goal umpiring decision there, and he could be a two time medallist. There's only so much a coach can do.

Don't fall for the simplistic mindset of those idiots on the main board who only look at the final outcome while lacking the ability to analyse what actually happened.

Simplistic or not, Lyon has never led his team to the ultimate prize. Its the only performance indicator we all care about, unless you're declaring that you accept that near enough is good enough.

He was assistant coach at Sydney when they won a flag though.

As a sidepoint - its amazing how players can get blanketed with the 'premiership player' brush yet assistant coaches don't get that level of recognition.

Harvey was assistant at Essendon when they won the 2000 flag, so I don't really know what point you're trying to make.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

What do you mean by " noone is questiong who is better " ?

If you don't believe that Lyon is a better coach, tf

I think you failed to grasp the meaning of my post pepe. Entirely.

Harves came to this club and was involved in a late night brawl at a Darwin nightclub, that proves he was a good lad and one of the boys. Not really the leadership required for Tarrant, Black etc.

Way to misrepresent what happened. Learn that from your mate?

http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/a...iles-mark-harvey/story-e6frf9l6-1111113792487

We need a coach similar to when Malthouse arrived at the weages.

Someone with genuine inside perspective on the east coast way of " going about it ", and a man who commands respect from everyone,

If some of you lot are so worried about poor old Harves, keep tabs on Brissie and wait until Crazy Voss is booted and yours truly is appointed the messiah.

As for Harves, I think a man who played and learned his trade under Sheedy would have a fair enough perspective on the "east coast way of going about it".

A season before, he took a team which finished 4th last to the verge of the top 4, and into the finals where they knocked off a team who grasped a Prelim Final loss from the jaws of victory.

I also don't know where you've come up with respect angle on Harves. One thing you could say about him is that heappeared to have that with the playing group.

I'll dumb it down, Lyon was 1 bounce away from a flag, with a list I believe, not quite as good as ours.

I take it you've been keeping up to date with the discussion on these boards over the past month pepe?

 

[Reginald Perrin]

Harves came to this club and was involved in a late night brawl at a Darwin nightclub, that proves he was a good lad and one of the boys. Not really the leadership required for Tarrant, Black etc.

Yes, because when you're hit from behind you always deserve it, just like those AFL footballers who are accosted by drunken yobbos at the pub when they are having a quiet drink. A clear indication of guilt.

I'll dumb it down, Lyon was 1 bounce away from a flag, with a list I believe, not quite as good as ours.

St Kilda's list was chock full of top draft picks, our list was nowhere near as good.

 

[robertto]

Interesting debate, my 2 cents
Not sure you can say for certain that lyon is a better coach than harvey.

Yes Lyon does have runs on the board and is clearly a boss coach, but in 2010 Harvey was probably coach of the year for many people, he had a young bottom four team playing consistant top 4 footy for most of the season.

2011 was a year of high expectaion destroyed by injury, you could say that Harvey played recovering players too soon, but surely that is a medical department issue, from a selection perspective a player either has the medico green light or he doesnt.

With a fit list in 2012 whos to say that Harvey wouldnt take freo back to the top 4?

However the excuses from Harvey did not sit that well with me, its not the mindset you want your public leader of the organisation to have.

In summary i have a hard time saying Lyon is hands down a better coach than Harvey because you dont know what could have been, but who knows what went on behind the scenes, maybe the working relationship between coach and board wasnt what it seemed.

 

[believe_it]

Harvey was ok when the team was going ok but when the pressure came on he started getting that rabbit in the headlights look again. Excuses started coming out, blaming fixture arrangements etc.

The medicos give the advice he makes the decision - Decisions are what he is there for . Some players were rushed back yet he seemed determined not to give others any real opportunities.

By the end of the season we were all at sea not just physically but mentally and tactically as well. We were like a routed medieval army fleeing the battlefield whilst being hacked down gleefully by a pursuing enemy. Some of those final games I couldn't watch . Never before have I not been able to watch a game til the end but it was just too painful.

So in summary I think Lyon just edges it.

 

[holy diver]

Harvey was a dead end. Unforgivable injury management and weekly whinging/excuses. We have a fresh start with Ross. Get on board.

 

[robertto]

The medicos give the advice he makes the decision - Decisions are what he is there for . Some players were rushed back yet he seemed determined not to give others any real opportunities.

I still feel that it would have to be a medical decision, in that the doctor would have to clear the player to play.

But now that you mention opportunities i remember being really annoyed that Keplar kept getting dropped, as he was probablty the most funtional forward.

 

[blue shark]

Harvey and Connelly were the best thing for the club at the time, does anybody now miss Connelly?
Its the same with Harvey, both made finals, but the good coaches make finals consistently.
Lyon has the respect, intelligence, hunger, to drill our squad into being the best team to wear purple, he is driven for success, and if you dont give 100% your out.
The club has to take some of the blame with previous coaches, with the lack of support in the coaching box, and letting Chris Scott go.
Scott should of been head coach of Fremantle 2012/2013.