Harvey

[malpaso]

Fast break footy on the counter attack has barely worked for us against decent sides all season - why is it all of a sudden going to work now?

Saying we looked superior for 5 minutes strikes me as odd. We looked inferior for a decent portion of the game as well.

We looked superior running for the first 15 minutes of the game and missed two sitters.

We again looked superior running in the last 6 minutes of the game and clawed back.

The problem is why did we deem it necessary to stop running? Or did WCE stop us?

 

[malpaso]

He kicked those 60 goals after being moved to the midfield in the second half of the year as well. He was leading the coleman at the half way point. Pav is a very smart forward, he's a genius at working his man under the ball and knowing when to lead. He's not as great overhead as he used to be, but he still has great hands.

Good point, I guess this year he's not dropping back into the forward line after being at the centre bounce..

 

[Clay Davis]

For the first 11 or so rounds last year, Pav was almost full time forward aside from the Geelong game. He might have started at centre bounces, but generally stayed up forward. You are right, creamygoodness - he was leading the Coleman until the side started struggling with injuries. The talent is still there, as much as IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN wants people to believe he never had it.

We looked superior running for the first 15 minutes of the game and missed two sitters.

We again looked superior running in the last 6 minutes of the game and clawed back.

The problem is why did we deem it necessary to stop running? Or did WCE stop us?

I think it's a very high intensity game style that no side can maintain.

West Coast chipped around and held onto the ball, waiting for their forward line to set up, looking for mismatches.

Because we were losing almost every forward 50 match up, we have to break on the counter. Mayne on Glass is not a 50/50 I would kick to from a set kick going inside 50.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

You're on record that you think Pav isn't that good as a forward. I'm not sure the stats agree with you, or how one reaches that conclusion.

I have never said Pav isn't a good forward, just that his marking ability, or his defensive pressure, aren't two of his strong suits. Don't put words in my mouth, capiche?

That's absurd. You're basically saying that until we're fully fit we need Pav in the middle. No club can afford that set up. Injuries are part of the game. We need to find depth through the midfield, not be eternally reliant on one player.

I'm saying at the moment, we have noone able to perform the role Pav currently does for us. Once Mora is back, I think he'll be capable of doing the job. Injuries are part of the game I agree, but injuries to the extent we have had them this year, and to our better players, aren't. I can't remember a club having a run like we have had.

If the situation was reversed, and every other club was in the position we have found ourselves in this season, and we had injuries ala WC, do you not think there would be anything different? Really?

Pavlich kicked over 60 goals last year. That's as good as it has ever been. He's only beaten that on three occasions in his career. How much has football changed in a year?

Alot. Pretty much every team in the competition is playing the offensive press type football which we played last year.

Fast break footy on the counter attack has barely worked for us against decent sides all season - why is it all of a sudden going to work now?

Wrong. When we have been able to execute it, against anyone, it has worked. Unfortunately, and this is the bit you really are struggling to understand, football is also about stopping the opposition from executing their strategy. Teams are blatantly trying to keep posession of the ball when they play us, in order to stop this. The only team that hasn't was Richmond, and we still scored 100 or so.

Saying we looked superior for 5 minutes strikes me as odd. We looked inferior for a decent portion of the game as well.

We did. I wonder why that was? Do you think being thrashed in the ruck may have been a reason for that? It's also why Pav is around the ball where possible, and why Cox won the medal. It could be worth adding that not having the best ruckman in the game playing is a significant reason for that, but you'll throw out the same bs about injuries, so I wont bother.

The fact we weren't able to play the games on our terms doesn't detract from that fact that when we do, we do it very very well.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

The talent is still there, as much as IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN wants people to believe he never had it.

You've lost the war if you have to misrepresent my arguments in order to strengthen your own.

 

[Clay Davis]

How will Mora do the job Pav is doing now, when he didn't do it last year and will be coming back from a knee injury?

Morabito is a tall, fast outside runner. Basically built like Pav and plays like Hill (but with less effective kicking). He didn't play the solid contested ball winning clearance mid at all last season.

I don't see how you can say footy has changed in 5-10 years and reign that into one season just to make your argument. Riewoldt, Franklin, Cloke and Kennedy are all kicking goals, just like they were last year.

The only player Pav can arguably be covering for at the moment is Mundy.

 

[Clay Davis]

You've lost the war if you have to misrepresent my arguments in order to strengthen your own.

You've said repeatedly that you think Pavlich is overrated. Not misrepresenting a thing.

 

[Bradesmaen]

It is all about robbing peter to pay paul. With no Pav, our clearances go down, therefore first possessions and likelihood of Pav scoring are down. If he plays in the midfield, we get more ball, but don't have the Pav like target down forward.

StKilda are in a similar situation in that they need Riewoldt up in the F50.. but they need him to be the outlet player on the wing.

Can't have it both ways Clay, no matter how much you'd like to think you could. What AFL side are you coaching btw with your genius tactics(read as "tactics that never work")?

 

[Lach72]

You're incorrect on Morabito Clay.

He played more inthe guts as the season wore on last year.

 

[IAMJUNGLEMUFFIN]

You've said repeatedly that you think Pavlich is overrated. Not misrepresenting a thing.

I do think he is overrated. Pav wouldn't be in the top 5 KPF's in the league, but you guys go on like hes a beast.

Buddy
JB
Cloke
Pods
Riewoldt

are all better than Pav up forward, then you have:

Riewoldt
Kennedy
Petrie

who are at the same level.

 

[Keys]

As an opposition supporter I'm happier seeing Pav line up in the middle rather than up forward. He's a fantastic player in either area but I believe you guys look more dangerous with Pav up forward with the occassional burst through the middle.

 

[creamygoodness]

Every year Pav has played as a permanent forward he has made AA. Podsiadly better? lmao, the dude can barely bend his knees to pick up the ball, and he has the turning circle of a semi-trailer. He's only useful when it's kicked to him on the lead or on his head, even his set shots are iffy. Brown and Riewoldt have fallen away a lot, even from where they were last year.

 

[Clay Davis]

You're incorrect on Morabito Clay.

He played more inthe guts as the season wore on last year.

Come on - as much as Pavlich has? When Pavlich plays midfield he usually gets around 25 touches and five clearances.

Mora didn't crack the 20 possession mark once last year, and was sporadic in the clearances. Sometimes was good, sometimes wasn't.

If he followed natural progression he might have started reaching Pavlich's numbers, but that's debatable. Pavlich isn't covering for Morabito's absence at all.

Even if you suppose that the coaching staff intended Morabito to be that player at the end of last season, his early preseason injury should have created a contingency plan that didn't involve robbing our forward line of its best player.

There were two knowns going into 2011: that Mora was out for the year and Barlow would take time getting back to full fitness. Everything else was as is, yet it was effectively declared at the start of the year that Pavlich would play full time midfield.

 

[Moo]

Imagine if we had lost by 2 points?

 

[Sman-21]

Tell me what exactly is Pav doing in midfield that is so irreplaceable?
Do his clearances ever lead to goals?
Does he ever have much space to deliver great passes?
Does he weave or explode away through packs?

We have targets up forward who cant compete 1 on 1 they need plenty of open space.
So quick scrubby kicks out of midfield do not help us.

Isntead of just plugging holes how about going back to what Chris Scott thinks is extremely important an that is showing faith in youngsters an giving them the opportunities.
We did it last year why not this year.
Pav stays forward Ibbo,Mzungu,lower,palmer,deboer fricken anyone with ability to run through there goes in for abit.
When Ibbo mid,mzungu drops back, palmer mid lower goes forward/bench etc etc.

Instead we play it safe an plug the holes with Pav.
How will this ever help with player development.
We have drafted a crap load of mid/flankers over the last few years why bother if all we are going to do is keep playing Pav there.

Geelong could easily just keep picking the same old trusted guys to do the job week in week out, taking the easy safe option.
But no they dont even wait for injuries they just rest the safe guys an give the young replacement confidence an show faith in him.

Young players hear from our coach Pav has to play mid to cover for injuries.

Show some faith in the young guys.
Sure none will prob get a guaranteed 25+disposals but they can all get the job done an who knows we may actually find a gem.
If one is struggling rotate another in there.
Plenty of options just need to be shown some faith an given a decent go.

Dont believe for 1 second Pav is only in there to cover injuries.
Hes in their coz him up forward doesnt suit our fast break offence.
That they believe is the best way to in games.

 

[Lach72]

That's nt what you said. You said he didn't play as an inside mid at all, when in fact he played there increasingly as the season wore on.

He still played outside too, as he was only 18.
I have no problem with the rest of your argument.
I'd personally prefer a 70/30 forward/mid for Pav.

 

[Clay Davis]

That's nt what you said. You said he didn't play as an inside mid at all, when in fact he played there increasingly as the season wore on.

I don't recall Mora being much of a first possession winner the way in which Pav is used. He might have been in the thick of things, but he was generally used as a big and fast mid who could break clear and throw a few don't argues while he was at it.

Pavlich is in there to read the tap, get first possession, take the tackle, and release. Morabito was used like a young Judd at West Coast, Pavlich is playing a Cross/Boyd/Priddis game.

 

[Lach72]

I don't recall Mora being much of a first possession winner the way in which Pav is used. He might have been in the thick of things, but he was generally used as a big and fast mid who could break clear and throw a few don't argues while he was at it.

Pavlich is in there to read the tap, get first possession, take the tackle, and release. Morabito was used like a young Judd at West Coast, Pavlich is playing a Cross/Boyd/Priddis game.

He was doing a bit of both, largely as he was young and inexperienced and not a 29 year old who has played 250 games.
I recall he was getting instruction from Barlow on his center square work.
I can see us rotating Mora, Fyfe Mundy, Barlow, Lower, Broughton and Deboer through there next year.

Pav physically won't be able to do it which will force his hand.

 

[apuchar]

I think the point with Pav is, he really doesn't seem to do enough as a midfielder to warrant what we lose in the forward line. And frankly, if he doesn't win the ball in the centre the opposition just walk away from him. He has no defensive run. We really need to keep recruiting in this position.

 

[Clay Davis]

He was doing a bit of both, largely as he was young and inexperienced and not a 29 year old who has played 250 games.
I recall he was getting instruction from Barlow on his center square work.
I can see us rotating Mora, Fyfe Mundy, Barlow, Lower, Broughton and Deboer through there next year.

Pav physically won't be able to do it which will force his hand.

I know he was young and inexperienced - I'm not criticising Morabito, I think he played fine games towards the end of the season as a big bodied, fast, release midfielder.

My point is that Pav is not playing his role. Pav's role is similar to Mundy/Barlow - except he is less effective at it than them.

I don't think there are too many coaches in the league that would want to turn a 60 goal a year forward into a lesser version of David Mundy.

 

[apuchar]

I just don't see it in the context of the game yesterday. Griffin went down, we needed Pavlich in the middle, 2 more pts and we aren't having this discussion.

Sure I'd like to see him go up forward more often and I reckon he will against the Hawks, they'll struggle to contain him up forward.

We would be having this discussion, because we don't know if we would have won comfortably, with structure and some sense of sustainability if we played Pav mainly forward. I accept that on the odd occasion he needs to go in there to solidify things. But not as a semi-permanent or mr fix it as it is now. We are always going to lose midfielders to injury, so does that mean Pav is going to keep going in there everytime it happens. I have looked around the Wafl and I haven't seen any of our young guys that look even close to ready to take up position in the centre square. what does that mean, same old same old next year or do we need another Barlow miracle.

 

[blue shark]

Every premiership winning team has a power forward, sometimes two.
Not playing Keplar, Anthony, Bucovaz, and Pav sometimes forward is bad
planning for the future.Houghton hopefully can get a game soon.
Playing a resting ruckman forward now and again to pinch a goal wouldnt hurt.Balla, Mayne, Mellington, Pearce, Walters when fit to rove and lock in the ball.

 

[apuchar]

We would be having this discussion, because we don't know if we would have won comfortably, with structure and some sense of sustainability if we played Pav mainly forward. I accept that on the odd occasion he needs to go in there to solidify things. But not as a semi-permanent or mr fix it as it is now. We are always going to lose midfielders to injury, so does that mean Pav is going to keep going in there everytime it happens. I have looked around the Wafl and I haven't seen any of our young guys that look even close to ready to take up position in the centre square. what does that mean, same old same old next year or do we need another Barlow miracle.

Oh except for maybe Michie. Just started to show a bit and then he got injured. Thought he looked promising though.

 

[Freo Blood]

Pav physically won't be able to do it which will force his hand.

Pav is not able to do it this year.
2 years ago he was strong thru the midfield, very ineffective now compared to what he could achieve up forward. When was the last time he burst out of the middle and kicked a long goal.
I think Clay is a knob as well but don't let that cloud your opinion.
Pav is absolutely being used in the wrong way. Some on here are saying no-one else can cover what Pav offers in the midfield. Against West Coast what exactly do we need to cover? It's not like they have a beast in their that needs to be countered. Priddis,covered. Shuey,back in a Lower or Barlow to square the match up. De Boer, Ibbo,Mz and Palmer need game time in there.

I just don't see what Pav is doing in there that is so valuable you would be prepared to sacrifice a 60-70 goal a year forward. I am a Harvey supporter as well but this is really testing my patience. I donlt think anyone could honestly say that this strategy is working.

McPharlin on Lynch wtf? Kennedy is their best aerealist (?). Which of those 2 has the potential to do the most damage? McPharlin should have been on JK - that was a coaching clanger of epic proportions. Those 2 decisisons could easily have affected the outcome of the game.

 

[purplefrog]

Pavlich is one of the best CHF's in the league and should be played there.
Don't mind the occasional run in the middle but starting him in there and keeping him in the midfield is dumb coaching. I admire what Harvey has done upto now but I just don't get this.